Barnes TSX Recovered Performance Report - Sept 2013

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by Stocky, Oct 7, 2013.

  1. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    I've not had a problem with TSX's feeding in my M70, however I handload.

    With respect to you saying they were seated to spec, what did you measure them to? SAAMI is 3.6", but my Barnes manual says to seat them to 3.57" with a minimum 3.54" length.

    Can you see that it is actually hanging up on the front of the bullet? I say this because I went through an issue with my M70 in that it doesn't like to feed non-crimped rounds. After fiddle farting with it, I watched very closely as I chambered a round and could see it actually hanging up on the "face" of the brass at the neck. Most factory rounds are crimped so this shouldn't be an issue, but can you see on yours if they're crimped into one of the grooves?
     
  2. Red Leg

    Red Leg GOLD SUPPORTER SILVER SUPPORTER AH Fanatic

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    They are solid metal - they don't bleed weight unless a petal breaks and that is very rare on the TSX.
     
  3. Stocky

    Stocky AH Veteran

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    I've been working with various 375's for quite a while now so let's see if I can help.

    When originally introduced .375 H&H rifles were originally built to feed and shoot 300 grain round nose bullets. Recall the original 30'03, the immediate forerunner of the 30'06, was designed for a 220 gr round nose also until the army saw its error and redesigned it for a lighter pointed bullet, changing the clambering slightly to the 1906 version we all love.

    This modification never happened with Holland's 375. As a result, the SAAMI spec chamber is the same as yesteryear, to this day all major US manufacturers and standard aftermarket clambering reamers as well as feeding ramps were designed to feed round nose bullets. Normally feeding shouldn't be an issue with pointed lead or plastic tips, but I've observed at least two or three occasions where pointed or flat-tipped bullets would jam on the ramp designed for round nose. This happens with TSXs in my 458, for example.

    The other problem created is that the old round nose bullet requires the rifling lands be located well into the throat. This will leave almost 1/2" of freebore (according to my actual measurements 0.427" with a factory loaded VOR-TX) or other sharply pointed bullets seated to fit in the standard 3.6" magazine boxes, due to the pointed bullet's longer ogive (curve to the point).

    This caused accuracy problems when pointed bullets first began to be tested in them, as well as feeding issues. This is why most 375 spitzers and spire points were originally designed with long shanks and short points. One look at the older pointed factory rounds as well as the Hornady spire points, Nosler Partitions, Bear Claws and others will bear this out. The 300 Nos Parts now sport a more tapered ogive, and of course the Accubonds, but the 260's still retain the long shanks and short ogive.

    Wonder why factories still load round nose soft points? Some older rifles may not feed pointed bullets well.

    So what does all this mean? It means that the current crop of long, sleek bullets designed primarily for aerodynamics may not feed nor shoot up to their potential in all rifles, therefore one must thoroughly test them in any rifle. If one is bent upon their use, in which case the repeating magazine rifle must be modified to handle them. I just did it.

    By the way, before going any further, I believe most reloaders are coming to agree that the Barnes TSX / TTSX bullets like a lot of freebore. The aforementioned 300 gr VOR TX factory fodder shooters under an inch in my 70. (Wish I could say the same about Accubonds that were seated to the cannelure, would have saved me some trial and error work on the receiver.)

    In a Ruger #1 they pose no great challenge to the handloader, simply seat your Accubonds out to within about 0.030" of the lands if it won't shoot standard length (3.6") rounds. I don't have my notes handy but this will result in a cartridge overall length of about 3.75", and this is exactly how my #1 likes them. Unfortunately, so does my Winchester. So that leaves the shooter a choice, single load the longer bullet for the first shot and put shorter back-ups in the box, or modify the rifle to take them all.

    Problem is that 375 H&H magazine rifles will require OALs not longer than 3.600" or slightly less to fit in the box. Loading the box with cartridges 3.75" long requires a new box, Wyatt's Outdoor makes them for 70's and 700's, but they will require machining the receiver as well as altering the bolt stop and in the case of the controlled feed Winchester, the ejector.

    So why do they make the new bullets so pointed then? Long range shooting with rifles that will shoot them well. The more modern 375s, like the 375 Ruger, 378 Weatherby and others have no such antique SAAMI or CIP standards to contend with. The loads for them are pointed and even if they weren't they'd will never see a round nose bullet anyway.

    If you own the Holland variety, test well and stick with bullets that will shoot well and feed reliably.

    Just so happens that the Barnes factory loads do both well in either bolt action I have so chambered, but I wouldn't count on Barnes ... Nosler, Hornady, or any load for that matter ... doing so on dangerous game without a hellava lot of range time behind it.
     
  4. 1ObsessedHunter

    1ObsessedHunter AH Veteran

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    You got me curious....and you're right, I checked the Barnes manual OCL is 3.570. I also measured the factory rounds...they're at 3.570. I'm out of luck with TSXs throught this gun.
     
  5. 1ObsessedHunter

    1ObsessedHunter AH Veteran

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    Thanks for the comprehensive response. I knew it was the bullet length...it's unfortunate because I really wanted to use them. My rifle shoots A-Frames fine, as well as round nose Horrnady softpoints. And yes...testing loads, EXTREMELY IMPORTANT!.....thanks again.
     
  6. Bobpuckett

    Bobpuckett GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    That was what I was trying to find out the shape of those bullets for the most part look like they went through some pretty heavy bone and I was wondering what was the out come of the bullets as most I have recovered from African Game (Eland) were perfect petals and all the only one that was deformed was one I finished a warthog off with and it slaped a rock as it was coming out her chest. These were the ones from the Eland.
     

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  7. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    I wouldn't give up on the TSX's just yet. If you look at the first page in the .375H&H section, you'll see it says seat to 3.54" as a minimum. If you still have some factory rounds left over, I'd take one and bump the bullet in say 0.005" steps and checking to see how it feeds. If you get to 3.54" and it still won't feed of course I'd stop at that point.

    DO NOT SHOOT THIS ROUND HOWEVER. WITH DEEPER SEATING THE PRESSURE WILL DEFINITELY RISE.

    There is also the option of having a gunsmith alter the feed ramp. But if the A-Frames are shooting well for you, I don't think I'd let a gunsmith touch it. You didn't mention if the A-Frames are factories or not. A-Frames shoot well in my M70 and I seat them to crimp in the cannelure. This puts the COAL well under 3.6", sorry I can't remember what it actually is. If the A-Frames you shot are factory rounds, I'd bet they're seated this way too.
     
  8. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    I wish there was a way to rate posts as I'd give this a 5 star, great information, thanks for sharing.
     
  9. sestoppelman

    sestoppelman SILVER SUPPORTER AH Legend

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    Yep, great info!
     
  10. garyleach

    garyleach AH Veteran

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    View attachment 23107 300 gr TSX retrieved from kudu, traveled from front to back and lodged in hip, notice the deflection in the bullet....
     
  11. 1ObsessedHunter

    1ObsessedHunter AH Veteran

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    Well, I definately don't want to mess with the rifle. The A-Frames were also factory Federal Cape Shok loads. The A-Frames were seated to an OCL of about 3.500". They funtioned fine through the rifle but the accuracy could have been better. I was consistantly getting 2.5-3" groups at 100...keep in mind I only have a 1.5-5 VX3 on this rifle. I also shot some old 375H&H Weatherby loads with Hornady round nose. They shot much better and accuracy was down to 1-1.5". I'm going to try to back down on those TSX loads. They do have a slight roll crimp and I may colpse the shoulder on it...so we'll see. I'm also going to try those TSX loads without feeding from the magazine just to see what kind of accuracy I can get. If they shoot ok I'll work up some loads from there and play with the OCL to see if I can get them to function properly.
     
  12. colorado

    colorado AH Enthusiast

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    From most accounts the Barnes TSX bullets perform exceedingly well given enough velocity. A 270g TSX in a 375 H&H at 2700 fps would be preferred over a 300g TSX at 2500. Lots of people swear by the 270g TSX from plains game through buffalo. The 570g TSX in my 500 Jeffery expands really well even at lower velocities (2000 fps impact at 200 yards on a cow elk). I think that's due to the large hollow point and the fact that it was designed for the 500 NE shooting at 200 fps slower. I actually had more difficulty getting the 570g A-Frames to feed in my CZ 550 500 Jeffery than the Barnes TSX or Banded Solids. So many good choices these days, Barnes, Nosler, Swift, Woodleigh, North Fork.
     
  13. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    Try hand loading the A-Frames. The 300gr version is very accurate in my M70. I struggled a bit with the load till some kind soul here on AH shared his load with me.

    Remington Brass
    Fed 215M Primer
    78gr of IMR4350

    The 78gr is 3 grains above the max listed in the Swift manual. But I think for the older calibers the manuals tend to be on the light side to ensure the loads are safe in the old rifles. With my M70 I see no issues. That said be safe and work up to it. Also as mentioned, I crimp into the cannelure just behind the leading edge. This load has regularly resulted in one ragged hole for a 3 shot group.
     
  14. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    I have found that most of my guns can also exceed max listed loads due to actual measured case capacity exceeding SAAMI standards. Yours may be like that as well.

    However assuming your chamber is built exactly to SAAMI spec and you are shooting a 22" or 24" barrel with the bullet seated near but not touching the lands, here is the Quickload data for your load listed above.

    Cartidge capacity (fired case) 95.3gr H2O
    Max chamber pressure 66054PSI (SAAMI max is 62366PSI)
    Velocity 2654fps 24" bbl / 2592fps 22" bbl

    If your barrel length and your velocity matches the prediction then the pressure is accurate for your gun. If the velocity is lower then your chamber is probably slightly larger than spec. If you know your actual velocity and barrel length I can run the numbers to get an actual pressure specific to your gun. The pressure does not become safe until you reach 97.5gr case capacity. Seating length can affect this as well but if you give me the cartridge capacity, measured velocity and barrel length I can predict with extreme accuracy actual chamber pressure which looks like it is probably above Max with that load.
     
  15. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

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    Don't know the case capacity, but the barrel is 24" and the velocity is 2550fps. Based on comments above, the OAL is likely close to 3.5".

    When you measure case capacity with water, you fill the case with water then empty the water into your pan and weigh?
     
  16. Diamondhitch

    Diamondhitch AH Legend

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    Weigh your fired case dry then fill it with water and make sure it is level with the top (ie: surface tension is not causing a bulge) then subtract the case weight.

    Based on your velocity it appears that your capacity is somewhere above SAAMI spec. since no matter how much I lower shot start initiation pressure (the pressure required to overcome case neck tension and tool the bullet into the rifling) I cannot get that low of a velocity.

    Quickload recommends an OAL of 3.600 for this bullet.
     

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