Discussion in 'Hunting Africa' started by SafariSean, Jul 30, 2012.
I'm running on no sleep... My auto speller kicks in on this I touch.
OK, well..then stop running and get some sleep!
I thought about this quite a bit. I donate knives to different organizations to be sold at charity auctions. When you donated the hunt you did just that. What difference does it make what the buyer paid for it. I see how it can be beneficial to have the hunter upgrade his hunt but, I would feel he is under no obligation to do so. if I purchased a 10 day hunt from an Auction it shouldn't matter if I paid $600 or $10,000. I should still get the same hunt as if I had purchased it from you at your going rate. When you told the bidder he could bring his wife free? Well you obligated yourself to that. The fact that you had to make special arrangements to fill that obligation are not the clients fault. Why did the other outfitters cancel on him? He purchased something that was willingly put up for sale, Just seems like bad business to me.
I'm new to the forum. I do not guide hunts. I have guided many safari's over the years. I must say that I am impressed - and somewhat amazed - that you guys occasionally donate a "hunt" as a promotion. That's a LOT of money - especially if the conditions of the hunt are somewhat loose and not specified. Look I don't want to ruin anything, but maybe you should consider a 50% off coupon for the price of a hunt, or an offer where the client pays the days hunting costs and you offer free accomodation at a local lodge. Something a bit less expensive, and where you can know exactly what your costs will be.
Money is getting tight these days. You always hope you have good clients who appreciate what you do and are generous if they have a great rip. But it's pretty hard to absorb large losses.
Just a suggestion. take it for what it's worth.
Very best wishes to everyone here.
Usually the screwing goes the other way around and I'm sorry the OP got screwed.
I bought two hunts at an event for too much money "for the cause" and then was told I couldn't let a friend use one. Basically, I cannot know anyone else at camp the same week. A big scam to sell a hunt and then jack the price by over fair market to make it a 2x1 for bear and fishing in Canada.
For every horror story I hear I've vowed the following:
1.) I will not bid on hunts unless they are from famous outfitters well known so as to assign value clearly. ( carter or boddington)
2.) I won't use average type outfitters who donate hunts again as the odds of screwing are high.
Lastly, I remember the first rule of economics that I hold dear to my heart as I know it is true: there is no cost incurred in a good or service that is not ultimately passed on to the consumer. I do not wish to pay more for a hunt because the outfitter gave away lots of hunts for PR that I must now offset by paying a higher rate.
I realize donations are well intended but they generally work out poorly for everyone:
1.) you gave away a hunt, Likely to a bottom feeder that will not patronize you again.
2.) a free hunt or won hunt is probably not as enjoyable as a tailored hunt so customer satisfaction will be lower on average.
3.) the hunt didn't earn as much money for the charity at auction as it would have if the PH just wrote a giant check and handed it over.
Why not just say as an outfitter: 20% of all gross receipts for bookings done this weekend will go directly to the charity and incentovize people that way?
P.s. - none of this should diminish the fact that the outfitter bent over backwards for a terrible bottom feeder customer. Sorry to hear about that.
Ultimately the individual in question was banned from about 5 different Midwest SCI chapters for much the same thing. The recession took a toll on hunting just like everything else and donations were selling for pennies on the dollar. My own club in KC is still struggling to support itself let alone send much to international but things are looking up our donation to MDF in Salt Lake of 2 buffalo on Lake Kariba brought $42K so maybe we are getting back to the real reason we give and that is to support these various organizations that are trying to protect and perpetuate the sport we all love so much.
If he buys the other animals, wife is free. If does not, wives has to pay. Simple.
Never saw the guy again and hopefully never will
Please correct me if I'm wrong but was he banned from all of these chapters for buying multiple hunts for dirt cheap at auction? That's not fair at all imo. Auctions are always a gamble you can either make a killing and have the thing go for well over market value or it can be a bust and it ends up selling for well below. If the auctioneers don't want stuff going for really cheap then they should set reserves. Although they usually don't like doing this as if the thing doesn't sell then all the money they put into marketing etc... goes to waste and generally speaking making something ($$$) is better than nothing.
But I still fail to see what the client has done wrong or how its their fault that they buy something for really cheap, lots of people who go to auction are bargain hunters....
Agree with Rookhawk. This forum and others are full of complaints going both ways. Have never thought of buying one and can't imagine why an outfitter would want to donate one (other than the usual SCI arm twisting). I'd rather be seen as, and in fact be, a paying customer.
I can't see the hunter was at much fault, HE WAS THE HIGH BIDDER that's what an auction is!
I can assure you donated hunts do cost the outfitter. I donate 2 hunts a year one to the outdoor adventure foundation and one to the kiva shrine ( I started the shrine hunt this year) and I loose by butt on them but.... I donate both of them for good causes and that's all I expect to come of them. I make sure that the hunt stipulations are clear at the time of purchase and in writing. I treat donated clients with the exact same hospitality as paying clients. I pay no mind as to what the hunts go for. I have made agreements in the past for extra things such as an observer and if I agree to it then I stand by it. That being said be cautious as I have had people try and over extend my willingness to provide extras, be polite but nip it in the bud from the get go if the client starts to get pushy about giving more than what was originally offered. Like I said though if I agree to something I will always stand by it no matter if it bites me or not as I feel that's the right thing to do. As far as being too proud of what you have, I didn't get that feeling from your post at all. After all that's what sells the hunt. I don't know if this helps any but good luck.
First of all we may want to go to my original post this guy was not just buying a hunt at a discounted price he was stringing multiple donations together. I did not object and covered another pH who did object so the local SCI chapter didn't look bad. As to my character in this business I just did the same thing, covered ano bad donation,
In my opinion the client was right for buying the 600 dollar kudu hunt, that is what he paid for. There was a verbal agreement based on additional animals that the wife could come for free. However, for 600 dollar kudu, I could not ask/tell the outfitter to let my wife stay for free as that is just being an ass.
I don't think anyone is thinking anything bad against you. You did an admirable thing. I also don't blame the guy for wanting to put several of the hunts together. Nor do I think he has done anything wrong buying hunts cheaply at the auctions. He was the highest bidder, had he not bid the winning price they would have sold for less than what they went for. If SCI doesn't like it then put a reserve on the hunts. As far as you are concerned, you did a good thing covering for the other ph who shouldn't have backed out. That's his bad not yours. I can honestly say I probably wouldn't have covered for him. With extending the clients hunt I would say it would be fair to stick to the original agreement in that if he shoots x or y animals his wife is free for the original dates and would have to pay for the extra days with the understanding that you are doing the guy a solid by taking over for the other ph. That's the thing that sux about donated hunts. Most the time they go smooth but when they don't they go to shit in a hurry.
Here's the nut of it:
-the Stringer of multiple cheap hunts was probably in his legal rights at every turn. Asking for more more more is rude but not illegal. So haranguing him for getting the "deals" isn't really his problem, it's outfitters bad choices in creating terms and conditions that are so easily exploited.
-as to the customer. The old adage is if you don't support great companies they go out of business. This person was a hedonist and was looking out for his interests with no regard to the sustainability of his outfitters. When you lack empathy and interest in doing what's right it's pretty clear you're expressing sociopathic tendencies. Considering his remorseless desire to exploit as many hunting opportunities as possible without considering even trying to mitigate your losses by buying extra days or animals it just smells bad. Sociopathic tendencies on such "exploitation" would not be localized solely to getting great hunting deals, it would be part of this person's make up and getting ripped off would be the PH's least of worries.
Two to tango, an outfitter hoping for the best in a client and a client hoping to compromise the outfitter through poor terms and conditions. Not great. I sympathies for the outfitter that had the best of intentions l.
For what it's worth, I do think the guy is an ass for asking for a free observer when he got a 600$ kudu hunt. But I would understand wanting to lump them together. Good deal or not, 2000$ in air fair as well as other expenses is a lot to spend on a 600$ hunt. Especially 4 or 5 times back to back. Of course I am assuming he would tip better than average, as he should considering the deal he was getting. If I was the guy I would be ecstatic about a 600$ kudu hunt, gladly pay the observer fee, add a few days at reg daily rate, and eat up whatever savings I had with trophy fees on extra animals I'd take. That's just me though. Obviously this client isn't that type of fellow. That being said, like I said before. People that buy these and get pushy about add ons for free that aren't part of the original deal have to be simmered down a bit politely and be made to understand the "free stuff" is only what's included in the original offer.
I think SCI should work out the value of these hunts and together with the outfitter a reserve price should be set, a lot of donations are really hurting the hunting industry.
I have had the unfortunate privilege of escorting two clients out of camp in my career...
Every string has an end.
My best always
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