At what point are we causing our own problems?

A guide I hunt with posted (with my permission) a picture of my son and I posing with two turkeys we took a couple years back. I think it a beautiful picture and it has always had special meaning for me. Until now. Now I am confused about my children in such pictures. When I saw it today I was immediately concerned that I had exposed him to potential harassment of the most vile kind. I still think it is a great picture. But someone else cannot look at it and feel what I do because to them it is just two people posing with a couple of dead birds. The problem is a picture cannot, ever, reflect the true range of emotion we felt at the time. It is just a picture of a dead creature. So perhaps, these photos can only ever be really "seen" by those who have been there themselves. There is no point trying to explain the picture to a non hunter. The pictures they need to see are of us in the bush, hiking in beautiful terrain, sitting in a tree covered with snow...OK maybe not that last one. (Sadly that is all one would see of my deer hunt last year but I digress.). But I suspect the pictures that will educate a non hunter probably do not involve the kill. The fellow who posted those pictures from Pakistan did a fantastic job from a non hunting perspective I think. So, unless you have the skills of Karsh I would just consider your own tolerance for abuse and go from there.
If you felt the picture(s) were of a beautiful moment in time to you then why not post them? What does it matter what other people think? It's what you think that matters. If you felt that they were of unethical quality then I'm guessing as a rational human being you would maybe have shared the them amongst yourselves. Too many people get caught up with "what will they think". I remember an individual once saying to me "Someone else's opinion of you doesn't have to be your reality"
I think we run into problems when pictures are posted as means of "getting back at" or "I'm posting this because your an expletive" reason. Forethought is not given to those possibly unpleasant circumstances that will follow.
 
It is the vicious nature of the online trolls that gave me pause. Not for me but for my son. When I joined AH I used my name for my online presence as I will put my opinions out there for anyone to see. However, teenagers are especially sensitive to the opinions of their peers. Interestingly, this boy of mine just wrote an opinion piece for the school newspaper supporting his decision to hunt. He was writing it at the same time as those posts that infected AH popped up. The viciousness of what I witnessed made me nervous for him and I tried to caution him. I was afraid of how his peers would treat him. He ignored me, as usual, and submitted it. Good for him I say. I have always told them two things: 'better to die standing than live on your knees' and 'if you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem'. I am glad he listened but I am waiting for the backlash.
 
It is the vicious nature of the online trolls that gave me pause. Not for me but for my son. When I joined AH I used my name for my online presence as I will put my opinions out there for anyone to see. However, teenagers are especially sensitive to the opinions of their peers. Interestingly, this boy of mine just wrote an opinion piece for the school newspaper supporting his decision to hunt. He was writing it at the same time as those posts that infected AH popped up. The viciousness of what I witnessed made me nervous for him and I tried to caution him. I was afraid of how his peers would treat him. He ignored me, as usual, and submitted it. Good for him I say. I have always told them two things: 'better to die standing than live on your knees' and 'if you are not a part of the solution you are part of the problem'. I am glad he listened but I am waiting for the backlash.
I know this is a bit off the original topic but it is in response to your post. I've tried to teach my teenagers that which I have preached in the previous reply. Yes it is difficult for them but life won't be any easier. Some of it sinks in and some of it is "yeah whatever". I expect failure as without it one doesn't learn to succeed. There lies the truth. People are afraid of success. Your sons stance is brave. Those around him find it easier to mock instead of building him up because it's the easy way out. Even though one or two may agree with your son they need to "stay with the flock" to fit in. I was labelled a "Bambi killer". It bothered me a bit. I realized that people are entitled to their opinion. The quote "Someone else's opinion of you doesn't have to be your reality" really stuck with me. It's what you decide to do with that opinion that will define one's future. The tongue is quick to tear down but slow to build up.
 
In regard to the OP, I spend a lot of time with this AH community because of the values that are taught here. When I learn something I turn around and pass it on to my kids. So, perhaps social media cuts both ways. In this case it can go a long way to creating a standard of excellence in hunting.
 
This is a very difficult subject. I want to agree with Rookhawk, but frankly, I can't. Here's why.

Very little in life is black and white. As I get older, I tend to find that almost every subject, and every thing, exists on a spectrum. Yes, there are pictures that offend me, but they might not offend many - or even most - other hunters. Some don't offend me but will offend others. Some people believe any amount of blood in a picture is unacceptable (I've had people look at pictures of me with a dead lion and ask "is he alive"!), while others accept it a part of the reality that is hunting. Some people have a more well developed sense of "silliness" than others, and it might come out in pictures. Some people "pose" animals while others prefer more natural pictures - have you seen the baboon pictures on this site? How many of those would qualify as "respectful", by whatever definition? I think you get the picture (no pun intended!).

It's easy to talk about ethics as well, but who gets to decide? There was a time when rifle scopes were thought unethical. There was a time when semi-automatic guns were thought unethical. In some (most?) countries, it's considered unethical (and illegal) to shoot an animal from a vehicle. In South Africa, hunting vehicles are equipped with shooting benches!

Given this, who is to be the judge of what is acceptable and what isn't? And make no mistake, you will need a judge, since we won't all agree. So now we have a judge, who tells us what is acceptable and what is not, according to a rule, or maybe a whim, or a mood.

So far so good, I guess, if you don't mind giving up some of your freedom to act as you see fit. But here comes the best part.

There is no hunting picture, of any type, that will satisfy the antis. So you've limited our freedom of expression, to what end? The antis will still hate you (us) because they won't accept hunting. They aren't rational. They don't care about poor people, or protein deprived people, or people who need to protect their livelihoods, or people who simply enjoy a legal activity.

So in the end you won't have served any real purpose, but we will all be arguing over whether some picture is or is not acceptable. And as we do that, we will attack each other, and make enemies of people who should be allies, and again, to what end?

Is this easy? No. Even I can't be consistent with my own rational views (he said about himself), as I've just expressed them. There are pictures that are so heinous that even the majority of non-hunters who are content to allow us to pursue our sport would find them objectionable. Pictures of animal cruelty. People intentionally wounding animals to provide a charge for video. So what I try to do is this: I turn away, I don't reproduce them, and if I'm in control, I might even bury them. But unless it's really an egregious case, I try real hard not to attack the hunter that might have had a different perspective than I had.

Hello Hank2211,

I totally agree with much of your post, especially; "There is no hunting picture of any type, that will satisfy the antis".

They are haters and haters will always hate ... because they love it.

However I do not see how my not being interested in Face Book is giving up any part of my freedom.

I would very likely not visit such a web site, even if I was not interested in hunting and fishing.

Neither do I feel that I'm giving up any of my freedom by not attending the ballet "Swan Lake" (or any ballet for that matter), or watch people playing golf, hopscotch, etc., etc.,

Such as those simply do not appeal to me, hunter or not.

It is more than easy for me because Face Book has not even crossed my mind until reading about the problems with it in this thread.

Guess I'm just a grumpy old cave man.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.
 
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Hello Hank2211,



However I do not see how my not being interested in Face Book is giving up any part of my freedom.

I would very likely not visit such a web site, even if I was not interested in hunting and fishing.

Neither do I feel that I'm giving up any of my freedom by not attending the ballet "Swan Lake" (or any ballet for that matter), such as these simply do not appeal to me, hunter or not.

It is more than easy for me because Face Book has not even crossed my mind until reading about the problems with it in this thread.

Guess I'm just a grumpy old cave man.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog, I said you'd be giving up "some of your freedom to act as you see fit", with the "you see fit" being the key part. You're not giving anything up by expressing your freedom not to belong to anything or to go to the "Swan Lake" (I personally have found that my freedom not to attend opera has been recently severely curtailed by family management; I hope that doesn't extend to ballet any time soon, but that's another story).

When I saw the post on the Ian Gibson thread that mentioned not position on FB, it took me a fair while to come up with faceBook, not being a member myself.

My point is that we shouldn't let others judge what we can and cannot do, so requiring pictures to meet certain standards before posting, or behaviour to meet certain ethical criteria sounds good in theory but falls apart in practice because we won't all agree on what reasonable limits are (except that I know offensive when I see it, and that just makes me a judge, which I shouldn't be). Whew, what a sentence.

So I join you in not belonging to FaceBook, or Instagram, or whatever the latest and greatest is. I think we are on the same page.

Hank
 
Velo Dog, I said you'd be giving up "some of your freedom to act as you see fit", with the "you see fit" being the key part. You're not giving anything up by expressing your freedom not to belong to anything or to go to the "Swan Lake" (I personally have found that my freedom not to attend opera has been recently severely curtailed by family management; I hope that doesn't extend to ballet any time soon, but that's another story).

When I saw the post on the Ian Gibson thread that mentioned not position on FB, it took me a fair while to come up with faceBook, not being a member myself.

My point is that we shouldn't let others judge what we can and cannot do, so requiring pictures to meet certain standards before posting, or behaviour to meet certain ethical criteria sounds good in theory but falls apart in practice because we won't all agree on what reasonable limits are (except that I know offensive when I see it, and that just makes me a judge, which I shouldn't be). Whew, what a sentence.

So I join you in not belonging to FaceBook, or Instagram, or whatever the latest and greatest is. I think we are on the same page.

Hank

Great minds think alike amigo, I totally agree and I apologize if I misinterpreted what you meant by - giving up some personal freedom, in regards to Face Book.

Also, you are doing better than me regarding "Instagram" because I've never even heard of that one.
 
Got a lecture from one child because I confused it with Snapchat.
 
As I read all these great posts it made me think back to my own beginnings in hunting / fishing. I did not come from a family that hunted or fished, and was not allowed a gun until I left home. I made many mistakes learning on my own , and some or many of them would be widely ridiculed today even by some of our members here. Thankfully, my mistakes were done before the internet, and digital cameras. We must remember that not all hunters have the same skills, experience and mindset as us "seasoned" hunters. I believe we must all educate our fellow hunters as to the most considerate style of pictures, etc. But remember other cultures and experiences differ. Never be critical of someone, only helpful and suggestive. We must not seem exclusive to other hunters, ever.
 
I hate to be the fly in the ointment,but I disagree with the statement that all hunters and hunting methods are equal and that we should not judge and let everyone in our hunting community share the sunshine of their contributions be it positive or negative.
As hunters and conservationist we should be the hardest judges within our own community.

The European hunters have no problem with throwing a member out of a hunting team if he/she transgressed any ethical or legal or safety rules.Shure you will get one talking to by not one,but all the members in the team and next time you are out.
Hunting organizations all have a code of conduct and even more importantly a disciplinary code,that right there shows that we cannot condone what every "hunter" does in the name of hunting.

I firmly believe as hunters we are created equal,from there it is up to each hunter to dictate what direction he is going to take. I for one do not want to be associated with a universal community were killing is the main objective to achieve fame,fortune and credibility or any other ill gotten gains. I can't see myself being judged by the same yard stick as someone shooting hand reared animals in a pen to get into the book. Pretty soon we will have these folks posting video taken by drones of how they sat on a truck until they spotted the right trophy animal before killing it, is this also going to be acceptable?

We can no longer standby and let the actions of a few bring judgement over all of us. Yes no photo will be acceptable to a Anti,but they very well could swing those that are sitting on the fence.

Educate and train new and young hunters by all means,but also prepare them for battle cause this war is only going to get worse with the Anti's and to win a war you need well trained,well armed (educated) disciplined soldier not gangsters.
 
But Hunt Hard who sets the standards? There are many things my friends see as acceptable in hunting that I do not. Who is right? You mention the shooting of pen reared animals but some hunting organizations find it acceptable and have records for it. I cringe when I see a photo of a farmed NZ Red Stag with 20+ points but plenty have no problems shooting one, some of my closest friends included. I take myself to be an ethical hunter and I had no issue with the lady posing with her Giraffe the way she did. I don't particularly like my photo taken with an animal but saw nothing concerning with her photo. Other hunters did so once again who sets the standards?
 
Clayton if I had the answers to that I don't think we would be discussing the topic,I wish I did. With the push to increase memberships and rank numbers we have become our own worst enemy,nothing wrong with a large number and being able to include members that have had no exposure to hunting. Sure enough if we spend as much time hammering in the acceptable way of doing things just like we do with gun safety we would have less controversial photos and hunters out there.
Hunters created record books as a record of which areas hold better records and or genetics and sure enough as a measure to see the increase or decrease of trophy quility as the years pass. Now the BOOK has turned into a competitive measuring stick to see who can bag the biggest of the species. Hunting competitions and best hunter awards grace our TV's and organizations like strawberries on a cake. Nothing wrong giving acknowledgement were it is due, but hunting and competitive behaviour is no good for hunting or the animals. Keep competitions to the shooting range were all shooters have a level playing field.

With the pressure on money and time we created the 5 day, 7 day etc Safaris. We fully expect to bag X number of animals in X number of days,being upset or disappointed if the PH does not deliver. So we make the safaris shorter we make the hunting area smaller and PH's deliver shot opportunities so we can go back home happy and with a full bag. Change anything you want about the scenario,bigger area,more days the truth remains that most hunters will miss the point,the killing of a animal does not make the hunt,you don't need to bring back a trophy or meat to have experienced a true hunt. Some days I would consider a hunt successful even if I did not kill anything,even more if I had the opportunity to do so,but let it go because a inch extra is not worth killing for.
Once again,we created the perception that hunting and good hunters can only be considered successful once there is blood on the ground 100% of the time. Hunting movies do not sell because we let one go, Outfitter,PH's and Agents,myself included have promo movies with more kill shots every year, maybe time to reconsider our whole approach to hunting.

Rant finished:A Blowup:
 
I guess it comes down to the old adage....Live and let live. We all must remember one thing here....We are brothers and sisters banded together for the right to pursue and protect the sport we love. I try to be kind to anyone in conversation when it comes to hunting, I never brag or boast. I have acquaintances who know I hunt but have never seen my "trophy room" pictures. And when they did they said wow we didn't realize you hunted like that.. No need for people to know I guess. We must try to protect our sport for the next generation and beyond.
 
Clayton if I had the answers to that I don't think we would be discussing the topic,I wish I did. With the push to increase memberships and rank numbers we have become our own worst enemy,nothing wrong with a large number and being able to include members that have had no exposure to hunting. Sure enough if we spend as much time hammering in the acceptable way of doing things just like we do with gun safety we would have less controversial photos and hunters out there.
Hunters created record books as a record of which areas hold better records and or genetics and sure enough as a measure to see the increase or decrease of trophy quility as the years pass. Now the BOOK has turned into a competitive measuring stick to see who can bag the biggest of the species. Hunting competitions and best hunter awards grace our TV's and organizations like strawberries on a cake. Nothing wrong giving acknowledgement were it is due, but hunting and competitive behaviour is no good for hunting or the animals. Keep competitions to the shooting range were all shooters have a level playing field.

With the pressure on money and time we created the 5 day, 7 day etc Safaris. We fully expect to bag X number of animals in X number of days,being upset or disappointed if the PH does not deliver. So we make the safaris shorter we make the hunting area smaller and PH's deliver shot opportunities so we can go back home happy and with a full bag. Change anything you want about the scenario,bigger area,more days the truth remains that most hunters will miss the point,the killing of a animal does not make the hunt,you don't need to bring back a trophy or meat to have experienced a true hunt. Some days I would consider a hunt successful even if I did not kill anything,even more if I had the opportunity to do so,but let it go because a inch extra is not worth killing for.
Once again,we created the perception that hunting and good hunters can only be considered successful once there is blood on the ground 100% of the time. Hunting movies do not sell because we let one go, Outfitter,PH's and Agents,myself included have promo movies with more kill shots every year, maybe time to reconsider our whole approach to hunting.

Rant finished:A Blowup:
Hunt hard. I agree with what you say and it's a very difficult topic to be sure. Let me speak for myself, not being a rich man definitely has it's draw backs on many levels. I for one have to save sometimes for years to go on certain hunts. With that comes internal pressure not only for myself but even in home life. I cringe whenever my wife say's now how much is this hunt? Thankfully she understands but nevertheless she is not happy about the money part. If I book a 5 day or 7 day hunt I book it with the hope I have enough time to harvest a good animal. I ve gone home many a time empty handed because I wouldn't shoot that small buck. I can accept that begrudgingly. All I ever ask of an outfitter is hunt me in a good area where the big ones live, consider my safety, feed me fairly well and a clean place to sleep. Everything else is up to the hunting gods. If you guy's need to make the hunt's 5 days or 7 days so be it. I don't like small fenced areas but if the game can escape and be hunted ethically I have no problem with that. Of course I want to be successful. I m going on my first safari in September and have chosen it to be a leopard hunt. Probably one of the more difficult hunt's in Africa to be successful on. I m hoping to add several plains game but was made to understand THIS is a leopard hunt. If unsuccessful will I be disappointing YES, more than you will know. But I ll be ok with the fact I tried. Keeping my fingers crossed!
 
@johnnyblues your reply says enough to convince me you Sir are a gentleman hunter, my rant is aimed at the other part of the hunting fraternity who do not get what it's really about.

Good luck on that Leopard,sure Diana will smile on you like only she can.
 
@johnnyblues your reply says enough to convince me you Sir are a gentleman hunter, my rant is aimed at the other part of the hunting fraternity who do not get what it's really about.

Good luck on that Leopard,sure Diana will smile on you like only she can.
Thank you sir. No insult or bad words intended. I love the open dialogue we can have here and exchange thoughts and ideas.
 
I guess it comes down to the old adage....Live and let live. We all must remember one thing here....We are brothers and sisters banded together for the right to pursue and protect the sport we love. I try to be kind to anyone in conversation when it comes to hunting, I never brag or boast. I have acquaintances who know I hunt but have never seen my "trophy room" pictures. And when they did they said wow we didn't realize you hunted like that.. No need for people to know I guess. We must try to protect our sport for the next generation and beyond.

I am truly conflicted by this. As a member of an informal international hunting community - yes, a brother and sisterhood surely - I do believe there is a bar of behavior which "members" should no fall below. I think those minimum standards should include things like doing everything in our power to insure game is taken cleanly and quickly; that we make every attempt to recover game; that we adhere to game laws; that we are safe and truly know our weapons and our abilities etc, etc. I think there is a second set of standards that probably cover those with whom I am willing to share a campfire. The ethnocentric American hunting in Europe who evidences no appreciation of European respect for the game animal; the loud drunk in camp at the end of the day; the "shooter" rather than the hunter - who is mainly interested in body count etc. Or perhaps now days - the person who posts those sentiments on line in the form of videos and photography. Those behaviors are technically legal - but they are not behaviors with which I will associate. I also believe they are behaviors which do proportionately greater harm to our sport than simply hunting. I do not pretend to know what to do about it - but I believe it matters.
 
Hello Hank2211,

I totally agree with much of your post, especially; "There is no hunting picture of any type, that will satisfy the antis".

They are haters and haters will always hate ... because they love it.

However I do not see how my not being interested in Face Book is giving up any part of my freedom.

I would very likely not visit such a web site, even if I was not interested in hunting and fishing.

Neither do I feel that I'm giving up any of my freedom by not attending the ballet "Swan Lake" (or any ballet for that matter), or watch people playing golf, hopscotch, etc., etc.,

Such as those simply do not appeal to me, hunter or not.

It is more than easy for me because Face Book has not even crossed my mind until reading about the problems with it in this thread.

Guess I'm just a grumpy old cave man.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Me too!
 

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Because of some clients having to move their dates I have 2 prime time slots open if anyone is interested to do a hunt
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dogcat1 wrote on skydiver386's profile.
I would be interested in it if you pass. Please send me the info on the gun shop if you do not buy it. I have the needed ammo and brass.
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Hi Lance hope you well. The 10.75 x 68 did you purchase it in the end ? if so are you prepared to part with it ? rgs Francois
 
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