A question always asked..............

Discussion in 'Firearms & Ammunition' started by BigBoreShooter777, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    165
    My Photos:
    131
    Member of:
    sci int, basc
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    at 1816ft/s would have thought lack of penetration . 25 percent less feet per sec is a lot.
     
  2. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    Hi Spike.t

    Here are details.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  3. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    165
    My Photos:
    131
    Member of:
    sci int, basc
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    worrying, not much doing what its supposed to.....
     
  4. BigBoreShooter777

    BigBoreShooter777 New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2012
    Messages:
    9
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thanks everyone

    I have taken into account everything I have been told, but have a few more questions that could possibly aid in my decision being made.

    What kind of accuracy could I expect with good ammo and the 458 lott in a CZ 550? That is if I do my part.

    I though some of you would like to see this video I came across: CZ and BRNO Rifles.wmv - YouTube (skip to 2:10). It shows the recoil of the 458 lott in a CZ 550. it seems quite nil.

    Question #2
    How effective is the 458 lott on longer shots at plains game? I understand the 416 would better suit longer shots at plains game, but it is still a question I would like to know the answer to. My uneducated thoughts would be, it can be just as good as the 416 on longer shots.

    Thanks
     
  5. 1ObsessedHunter

    1ObsessedHunter AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    3
    Member of:
    NRA Life Member
    Hunted:
    South Africa
    This can't be right. As a reloader I've chronogaphed many loads. There can't be that much deviation. There's no way those A-Frame loads have a 400+ FPS deviation. You may have gotten a bad reading with your chrono which can happen.
     
  6. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    I don't think so. But I certainly have bad results several times on elephants and buffalos with sledgehammer due to poor penetration. I have not used any Swift nor Triple S yet on any game yet. Barns Banded Soild is great and very accurate.

    Here are two more results.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  7. PHOENIX PHIL

    PHOENIX PHIL AH Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,494
    Likes Received:
    141
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    SCI
    Hunted:
    USA, S. Africa
    The only question I'd raise on that video is what were the rounds loaded too? I can tell you a .404J which really a .423 caliber loaded with 400gr bullets traveling at 2200fps is in my opinion quite easy to deal with. My .416 Rigby round that I've worked up that's most accurate is a 400gr North Fork with 103gr of H4831. With the 26 inch barrel on the CZ, and doing a little estimation from the loading manuals, I'm expecting that round to be traveling in the 2500fps range. Trust me, the 300fps difference between these two is night and day.

    Anyway to your question concerning the .458, it would depend on the range. If your keeping it to 100 yards or less, you'd probably be fine. The .458 Lott as I understand it was intended to makeup for the shortcomings of the .458WM. The .458WM was touted to push a 500gr projectile at 2200fps, but didn't quite make that standard. The LOTT did. My understanding is that is now possible with modern powders to achieve this in .458WM by the way.

    But in anycase the LOTT standard is 2200fps. That's plenty fast at DG range with that huge projectile, but it doesn't take too much further beyond that that the speed will be down to where if you're using a soft point expansion would start to suffer. The further out, the worse that will be and the bullet will act a bit more like a solid. Will it still kill? Sure! A .458 hole bored through the lungs is still going to bleed. After all, many elephants are taken with heart/lung shots using solids.

    But that's where the beauty of the .416 comes in as you'll be able to shoot further and still get good soft point expansion. So in the end you'll get a bigger hole in the vitals and the animal will die quicker. Not to mention the improved ballistics and ability to hit the animal cleanly.

    As far as accuracy goes I can only tell you that I wish all my rifles were as accurate as either my .375 or my .416 .
     
  8. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    In the video, I was using a factory Federal Premium Cape Shok 375 H&H 300 grains Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer ammunition.

    Certainly, you do not need 500 grains bullet going any faster than 2,150 Ft/s for dangerous games. Unless you wanted too.

    Caliber, bullet, terrain, specie, shot placement, timing and your exhaustion all counts.
     
  9. spike.t

    spike.t GOLD SUPPORTER AH Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2010
    Messages:
    3,055
    Likes Received:
    165
    My Photos:
    131
    Member of:
    sci int, basc
    Hunted:
    zambia, tanzania, zimbabwe, hungary, france, england
    i have a .416 rigby and two .458lotts and i use factory ammunition, and i can tell you that you can definitely tell the difference when shooting them. :D mind you my lotts are fairly light carry guns with peep sights, and the one def weighs less than the rigby without its scope the other about the same. the .416 rigby you can use out to 250 yds with a scope, a bit more if you know how it shoots. as phil says the lott is 2200 to 2250 fps which is plenty for it to work very effectively on big game at shortish distances. if you want to pump it up it would become very unpleasant to shoot i think........
     
  10. shangwari

    shangwari

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2011
    Messages:
    40
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    27
    Member of:
    SCI, BASA , PHASA
    Hunted:
    RSA,NAMIBIA,MOZAMBIQUE,ZIMBABWE
    First question! What do you intend to hunt with the rifle.Second question ! How many times would you be hunting dangerous game !
    If you intend to use the calibre as an all round hunting rifle on all off the big 5 and croc and hippo i will go with the 416 Rigby.
    If you intend to specialize in elephant hunting,in thick stuff and need a stopper go with 458 Lott.

    I shoot 375 HH,416 Rigby and 458 Lott on my guiding.My all day carry gun is my CZ 416 Rigby on cats,buffalo,elephant,hippo ex allso i use it on my plainsgame back up.

    My 375 HH are used for a client rifle on plainsgame,cats and croc and hippo,sometimes elle and buff as well.

    My 458 lott i use specialy on elle and buff in very thick bush!!!

    416 Rigby with 410 gr dzombo solids do every thing i need to do.It saved me many times.416Rigby can be loaded with 350 gr as a flat shooting gun and then up to 450 gr for bigger game at close range.For me the 416 Rigby offers me more pleasure and usage as my 458 lott,but both areexcellent calibres.
    good luck with your choice.
     
  11. Upton O. Good

    Upton O. Good AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2010
    Messages:
    192
    Likes Received:
    13
    My Photos:
    23
    Member of:
    NRA Life member, Nature Conservancy, Dallas Safari Club
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe, South Africa, Canada, Mexico, Louisiana
    This thread is very timely, I'm exploring similar questions regarding .375 vs. .416. I think my main issue is finding a rifle in each caliber that I can test fire at the range to get a feel for the experience. I want a rifle that I can shoot well so I can kill the game outright and not put anyone (PH, tracker, me) at risk dealing with a wounded animal.

    To do this, I need a lot of trigger time at the range shooting a few rounds each time at photographic targets of DG. To do this I need to find the right rifle. Time to start local networking. Its all part of the great experience of eventually shooting a buff, leopard or elephant, I guess.

    I really am gaining a lot of good information so thanks for starting this thread and for the patience of those submitting their comments.
     
  12. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    3
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe
    If the round was indeed doing 1816 fps, I doubt whether you had enough penetration and the shot may also have been an inch or so low! Clearly, the bullet did not reach the brain!
    This 'underloading' of factory ammo was what gave the 458 WM the poor rep in the first instance. Loaded at the correct spec of 2150 fps it works so well as does a 375 loaded to 2500 fps!

    Did this Ele get killed by you or the PH after these 'squib' rounds? What was the 'diagnosis' of the bullet performance?
    Respectfully, if you chronoed these rounds back home at 1816 fps , why did you use them?
    I must say I'm very surprised that factory loaded federals came out so poorly!! The Sledge hammers are the top bullet design for penetration!
     
  13. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    Hi,
    I am from Thailand where hunting is illegal. Hunting ammunition is almost impossible to find. Prior to this trip, I have nine of this Sledgehammer left and I wanted to use them as back up shots. I fired the first shot with Barns Banded Solid, second shot was fired with Sledgehammer into the spine, not enough penetration neither. Third shot went into high lung as the bushes blocked my view. Then the frontal brain shot. The shot was angling upward. Please see "Elephant hunting with Felix Marnewecke in Namibia" on 17th day for details.
     
  14. Ole Bally

    Ole Bally AH Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2011
    Messages:
    487
    Likes Received:
    2
    My Photos:
    3
    Hunted:
    Zimbabwe
    Stan...you sure that Chrono's right? It seems that everything you tested is way low! Any way to test it all on another chrono?
     
  15. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    I am using a Sauer 90 that I bought thirty years ago. Double Tap and Norma bullets were 350 grains.

    By the way, I have not completely done posting day 17th yet.
     
  16. 35bore

    35bore AH Elite

    Joined:
    Apr 17, 2009
    Messages:
    1,914
    Likes Received:
    23
    My Photos:
    74
    Member of:
    NRA,Missouri hunters ed, SCI, Owensville Gun Club, Quail Forever
    Hunted:
    USA, South Africa, France
    I guess my take on the DG rifle's is a little different here. I have owned a CZ550 in 416 Rigby, and it was ungodly accurate for a big bore, and yes I would feel comfortable taking a 250-300yrd shot with it ,,, but,,, not on a DG animal. If I am going to spend the $$$ for a DG animal, I think that I would want to get as close as I could (100yrds or closer) to make sure that shot placement was precise. There have been too many stories about poor shot placement (and let's face it, a lot can happen at 300yrds (( exspecially under field conditions)). Last thing you want is a long tracking job in tall grass.

    I would recomend the CZ550, in the 458 or 450 Rigby, base on your previous post it sounds like you don't reload (nor do I) and the last box of Federal premium I bought for the 416 Rigby was $275.00US.

    Good luck on your quest, and welcome to the forum.
     
  17. Stan-Elephant Trail

    Stan-Elephant Trail AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2012
    Messages:
    128
    Likes Received:
    0
    My Photos:
    69
    You are exactly right, 35Bore. Me too, I want to be as close as possible (as the PH allowed) to the annimal while hunt to DG. The thrill, the excitement, adrenaline rush and my shaking feet.
     
  18. 1ObsessedHunter

    1ObsessedHunter AH Veteran

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    Likes Received:
    1
    My Photos:
    3
    Member of:
    NRA Life Member
    Hunted:
    South Africa
    I had mentioned the same thing regarding the chrono. Even with a properly functioning chronograph, at times a bullet may not pass through the skyscreens correctly and WILL provide a false/inaccruate reading. It's not possible to have these types deviations. Federal produces top notch ammo and I doubt their quality control would slip enough to cause a double digit error in powder charge, because that's what it would take to cause a devition of 600FPS.
     

Share This Page