A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

ChrisT

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I've seen several interesting comments (and threads) on Internet forums referring to Outfitter Pricing... "Package hunt or all carte?... "You pay what you get for...", "You do not get what you pay for...", "Cheaper hunts do not necessarily equals an inferior experience..." And several more...

An interesting comment I read was something to the effect of:

"Some Outfitters charge higher prices than others because they "can" and not because they need to..."

Now what I read into a statement like this is that the perception exists that "some" Outfitters provide the exact same service as other (lower-priced Outfitters but they charge more - not because they need to but because they "can" and because they're out to make as much money from their clients as possible... While I will not dispute that there might be Outfitters that do exactly this, I do feel that there is another side to this that also needs mentioning/discussing...

Before I continue, let me use an analogy...

My wife and I will be in Alberta - Canada later this month and my wife would like to go dogsledding while we are there - a lifelong dream of hers... For this we need to travel out to Banff and stay over for a night or two so we've spent the last week or more trying to find a hotel in or near Banff that will not only suit our needs but also fall inside our budget...

As we figured out, there are several hotels, guesthouses and lodges in the area - some of them really affordable and others more expensive...

So how did we pick one? Did we pick the cheapest one just because it was cheap? We are after all not wealthy people by South African (or any other) standards and for every Canadian Dollar I spend I have to fork out more than Ten South African Rands...

And hotels are hotels after all... They provide the same basic service - a room, a bed and a meal... So the only difference is the price - right?

We all know, no hotel - cheap or expensive - is going to be giving me a discount because my wife is little, doesn't eat a lot of food and because I'm a "Blue Collar Worker"... Hotels charge what they do and that's it - no questions asked...

Long story short is we found a hotel and booked it... Was it the cheapest one? No! Was it the most expensive one? No! Did I question the fact that one apparently decent hotel was charging $90 per night and the one we booked was more? NO!

Because I understand the concept of a 2 star hotel on the outskirts of town (or in the centre of town in a busy street with lots of traffic noise) being graded as 2 star because it does not offer the same amenities and level of luxury that a 4 star hotel with a view of the Rocky Mountains does. Having said this - I'm not implying there is anything wrong with the 2 star hotel - different strokes for different folks... Fact is the 2 star hotel can't charge the same as a 4 star hotel and the 4 star hotel shouldn't charge the same as the 2 star hotel because it obviously costs more to run and this should come at a premium... A premium that we as guests have to pay... It's called "market-related pricing" - and we're all familiar with that concept...

Would I have booked the most expensive hotel if I could afford it? YES - probably - because it offered everything that I envisaged about vacationing in Banff... Would I have booked a 4 star hotel that was charging the same as a 2 star hotel? NO - definitely not... because the first question that I'd ask would be: "Why would it charge a price way below market value?" For me this is a once in a lifetime trip that I most certainly wouldn't want to spoil because I tried to save a few bucks...

The hotel we booked was one that fell within my budget, one that was rated as excellent on the website we booked it though, had many, many positive reviews and one that had (what we perceived) as close as possible to the typical "Banff feel" that I had created in my own mind... Fireplace in a room with a view, etc. etc... And if I could not afford this hotel - the solution would be simple... I can't afford to do it so I'm not going - period!

Picking an operator that offers dogsled tours was easier... Because all of them were pretty much priced similarly... What made me decide to book with one operator over the other was the fact that the one I chose doesn't charge for rental of snow gear while the other charges $10 per item...

Picking a car rental company to rent a vehicle from for the trip from Calgary to Banff was also pretty easy. It was recommended I get a 4WD for the trip as weather conditions can change very quickly and there was a possibility of having to drive in snowy conditions so I opted not to rent an economy model at $20pd but I got a 4WD at $90pd... There were also 4WD options at $120 and even higher available but in this instance I picked the cheapest Rental Car Company I could get because a Jeep is a Jeep and regardless of who you rent one through - you still get a Jeep... My only consideration was that I needed a 4WD and free mileage... As it turned out... $90 per day was the best deal I could find...

Back to the original subject...

Minimum wage for a farm worker in SA is roughly ZAR120pd. This is for an unskilled labourer working 9 hours a day and excludes overtime. There is no minimum wage for Trackers (as an occupation) so they would typically fall in the "Farm Worker" category... Bear in mind though that Trackers rarely work only 9 hours a day. They're typically up and running way before first light, preparing coolers and hunting vehicles and their day only stops when the last of the animals hunted that day are skinned and the trophies are in the salt - which could be midnight or later... I can say from my experience that decent and reliable Tracker / Skinners are not easy to find. Those that are qualified and meets the criteria earn minimum ZAR200 per day and the good ones should earn more...

I pay my chef ZAR600 per day. There is no minimum wage for chefs in my country - some operators would use one of their "farm workers" to do the cooking and pay them a minimum farm worker's wage and others would use their wives to do the cooking free of charge but it so happens that my chef is highly skilled and prepares amazing dishes. She is an asset to my business that interacts with my clients, make them feel at home, is terrific company and forms an integral part of my operation. For this reason she earns more than the typical safari camp chef but in my opinion it is money well spent...

When hunting, I burn up to ZAR500 per day in fuel. This excludes fuel expenses associated to picking up a client from the airport and taking him/ her back...

A good PH earns ZAR750 per day - one with more experience and a DG rating would earn more... (Fair enough, newer, less-experienced PH's might work for less, but for purpose of this discussion please consider that I guide most of my clients myself and after 17 years in the business (and with a DG Rating) I don't consider myself to me "less-experienced"... Please also consider that the hunting season essentially runs for 6 months a year so even if a PH works every single day for those 6 months (which is highly improbable) his/her total annual income in wages will be around ZAR 137K which equals an average monthly salary of ZAR 11,500. As a matter of interest this currently equates to roughly US$1,000 per month...

My average daily food bill per client is around R250 per day (conservatively estimated). I also provide drinks to my clients (bottled water, soft drinks, wine, beer and selected hard drinks). Fortunately my typical clients are serious hunters so booze are used in moderation but drinks can add ZAR150 per day to my cost - even if no alcohol is used - easily, considering how many bottles of water and soft drinks are consumed daily.

According to my calculations, at this point it costs me at least ZAR2,450 per day (excl. extras) to host a single hunter on a 1X1 hunt if I use my own camp and run the safari according to the standards that I've set for my business... If I use one of the camps I lease from other Landowners there are additional costs involved...

The above does not take into account that it costs me ZAR900 in fuel and toll road charges to drive to the airport and back to pick up a client and another ZAR900 to take him/her back to the airport and drive back home...

And this does not take into account that in Winter (when most of our hunting is done) the heaters in the chalets are running almost permanently and in summer the same applies to the air conditioner - which equates to a higher power utility bill...

It also does not take into account factors such as depreciation of assets and general maintenance as far as vehicles and other items are concerned...

So, if we forget about what electricity costs, what maintenance costs and what it costs to employ staff that will clean and iron clothes every day, staff that will make sure firewood is cut, that the fireplace is clean and that a welcoming fire is lit by the time you get back from a hard day's hunt...Let's look at some numbers - using a 7 day hunt as example:

Road transportation - ZAR1,800 (return)
Daily costs - ZAR 2,450 X 7 = ZAR17,150
Total - ZAR18,950

Divide that by 7 days and you get to ZAR2,707 per day.

Divide that by 11 (current US$ vs ZAR exchange rate more-or-less) and you're at $246 per day...

At this point, my business has not made a cent of profit and no provision has been made for maintenance, depreciation or any eventualities... I have not paid the staff that cleans the camp and chalets or those who do the laundry. I have not spent a dime on advertising - which does not come cheap - irrespective of where and how you advertise...

Which brings me back to the title of this thread...

QUESTION:

When considering a safari...

Are you looking for a 4star experience at 2 star rates? And if so - at whose expense does that come? Your own, the Outfitter's, his PH, Trackers, Skinners or somebody else? How long can an Outfitter who charges rates that doesn't cover his basic costs stay in business and if he manages to do so - how does he do it?

If the answer to the last question is: "It doesn't matter - as long as I have a good time I'm fine..." How comfortable would you as client feel about leaving a deposit for a hunt a year or more out with an Outfitter who barely charges enough to cover his daily expenses for a hunt...?

Or are you looking at the best value for money experience you can get without harming anyone - including yourself in the process?


Best regards,
 
I am always looking for best value for my money, but of course I am expecting the outfitter to earn money on me at the same time.
But I am not willing to pay extra for luxury I am not interested in.
I am also not interested in paying extra for bigger trophies as I hunt for the challenge and not to fill my house with high scoring trophies.
I want to experience the challenge of hunting mature animals with the method I prefer(to me that is stalking with my bow).

Very often I see outfitters having rather high daily fees and offering great luxury lodges and luxury service at the same time.
I am not willing to pay for that.
I go to Africa to hunt hard and have a great time doing it.
I couldn't care less about a huge luxury lodge, swimming pool, great wines, 3-5 course meals and lots of staff catering to every minor things.
I don't go to Africa for a luxury vacation. I am there to hunt.
I am not paying for a 4 star hotel when I am totally happy with a 2 star hotel.

To me it is all about the quality of the hunt and that is much more decided by the area hunted, the animals there and the PH.
And I find it much more difficult to filter through everything to find the ones that can give me the most value for the money when it comes to this.
 
Chris - I hope this thread grows legs and lots of folks chime in.

I've never had a problem with people making money. In fact, I'd prefer my outfitter/PH make a good living so they can keep momma happy and stay in business for my return trips. Truly good outfits earn a reputation and can charge more -- works for me. What I do demand is integrity. No false promises or misleading information. No surprise costs.

Unlike some, I am willing to pay a little extra for good food and paying more for a good chef is money well spent in my book. I don't travel to Africa just to come home with trophies. I enjoying watching an unbelievably good tracker at work, eating foods I don't eat at home, hearing jackals and impalas at night, sharing stories around the braii at night. I expect to pay for the privilege...and, frankly, the time for me to scrimp and save is when I'm back at home.
 
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Chris, I see where you are coming from and understand your situation, however there is a different side to the coin, being different business models. Firstly I do not own a lodge and I don't want to. Reason being the exact costs you are talking about, maintenance, electricity wages etc. I use 3 and 4 star rated lodges which were inspected by nature conservation to be suitable for foreign hunters as is the norm.
These lodges do the catering, the laundry and supply most of the drinks. I am not going to name figures of my cost per person at a lodge because I think it is private. Included in this the lodge provides cooling facilities and skinners employed by them. Then I must add that on most hunts there will be more than one client which immediately changes the picture.
Also in the model I use value adding brings profit from other sources, I have a butchery and biltong factory which makes a big difference between what you get paid for carcasses and what I get. We also have a share in a taxidermy, where even if we only do dipping makes a big difference.
Not added in your model is the profit made on animals hunted. I am also sure you are aware that on certain hunts,( obviously the more expensive hunts) the farm and lodge owner includes a few days for hunter and PH in the package.
Some of the members on here have left deposits with me for up to two years. I must add I charge a small deposit per group and not per hunter to ensure comfortability for the client. On most of the farms I use there is a full time employed PH, most of who I now have long time relations with who helps with the hunts included in the dayrates I pay.

I think each outfitters situation is unique and perception should not be formed without looking deeper.

Looking forward to meeting you in Calgary!
 
I've had some hunts that were as you described Chris, but my wife and I went on a hunt in SA where there was one tracker,( he was incredible) his wife did the laundry and room, the PHs wife did some cooking but she was gone on other business so he cooked himself, we pitched in and helped and did some of the cooking and as for lunch and breakfast it was simple snacks. The whole trip was awesome! The hunting was very good, of all our hunts it was one of the most memorable.
 
Chris I understand were you are comming from and no you dont always get what you pay for but you always pay for what you get.
I personally dont hunt with large Outfitters anymore, I do not care for fancy lodges and new cruisers or a 3 man tracker team. I have also learned that large concessions are nothing to go by, quality over quantity works very well for me. I do have clients that want 4 or 5 star meals and accomadation, they pay for that and they know it.
Most of my clients however preffer a smaller lodge with exclusivity, they are the only ones in the camp and the only ones hunting the area. It also enambles us to pay more personal attention to them. Most of my clients also preffer to hunt on foot, the whole day, we dont burn that much fuel, but it also comes down to how far appart your concessions are and what the quality of the concession are.
There is no shortage of lodges and hunting farms in SA, I honestly think there are too many and in some areas the prices of packages are based on survival instead of growth.
I no longer price to compete, I price so that everyone wins, the client,the property owner and myself.
The worst part of the whole thing may just be that no matter how much a client pays, he may never experiance what hunting in Africa truly should be.

Wishing you the best for the coming season.
 
Enjoyed your comments and analogy Chris.

Have a great time in Banff. It is beautiful. Highly recommend making the drive to Lake Louise. It isn't very far and well worth the trip.

All the best.
 
I think each outfitters situation is unique and perception should not be formed without looking deeper.

This is the key to the costs, and the price!

The premise cannot be that all outfitters cost are the same. They aren't. I'm sure they are wildly different based on lodge ownership, land owenership, amenities offered, and marketing costs, just for starters.

Point being, that even if the daily hunting variable costs are exactly the same (and I'm sure they arent, even if close) then fixed costs aren't. If an outfitter is hunting on land owned by the family as opposed to leased land then cost is lower for one. If an outfitter has a full show schedule and huge booths and another is pure word of mouth then the cost is lower for one. Another outfitter may simply be OK with a lower profit margin for whatever reason. And because of cost differences the "cheap" outfitter could actually be making more money!!!!

I want my outfitter(s) to charge a reasonable cost and to make money off me. It isn't however; my responsibility to control costs, it is his. At the risk of sounding cold it is his problem if he has higher prices, not mine. It is my responsibility to find the best deal I can, for me. Both the outfitter and the hunter must "profit."

I'm in agreement with Norwegianwoods, it is all about getting the best value for what I want, not paying for things that I dont. When I hunt alone I couldn't care less if I even have running water (I don't at my deer camp and barely have any heat - I use a stove on really cold nights). When I take my wife to Africa I want to know if there is a pool and if a masseuse is available. Different costs for sure!!!!

As far as leaving a deposit I of course would prefer to not leave one with an outfit that is on shaky financial ground. But how do I know without seeing his books? As I've said, just because he charges more doesn't mean he makes more. And, just because he has been around for 20 years doesn't mean he isn't about to go out of business.

Great thread!!!!
 
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I am always looking for best value for my money, but of course I am expecting the outfitter to earn money on me at the same time.
But I am not willing to pay extra for luxury I am not interested in.
I am also not interested in paying extra for bigger trophies as I hunt for the challenge and not to fill my house with high scoring trophies.
I want to experience the challenge of hunting mature animals with the method I prefer(to me that is stalking with my bow).

Very often I see outfitters having rather high daily fees and offering great luxury lodges and luxury service at the same time.
I am not willing to pay for that.
I go to Africa to hunt hard and have a great time doing it.
I couldn't care less about a huge luxury lodge, swimming pool, great wines, 3-5 course meals and lots of staff catering to every minor things.
I don't go to Africa for a luxury vacation. I am there to hunt.
I am not paying for a 4 star hotel when I am totally happy with a 2 star hotel.

To me it is all about the quality of the hunt and that is much more decided by the area hunted, the animals there and the PH.
And I find it much more difficult to filter through everything to find the ones that can give me the most value for the money when it comes to this.

Agreed 100% Norwegianwoods.

You shouldn't pay for a 4 star hotel if you're happy with 2 star.

In the example I used pertaining to costs incurred by me as Outfitter, I wasn't referring to 2, 3 or 4 star hotel accommodations though. I was referring only to the costs associated to hosting a client on safari - non-star graded...

If clients were looking for 5 star accommodations and services, costs would be considerably higher.

Best,

Chris
 
What I do demand is integrity. No false promises or misleading information. No surprise costs.

And that, my friend, is how all a Outfitters should conduct themselves - irrespective of what they charge.

Best,

Chris
 
Very interesting thread Chris. The reason I have hunted with the same outfitter in SA (except once, which was a special deal), is that I get what I expect and find the price reasonable.
And I trust him.

I hunted with him the first time after the recommendation of a good friend. That´s the way he works, this year he has decided not to have a booth at our hunting fair, he doesn´t need it, he just phones long time customers and has lunch or dinner with them and their friends, and fills up his appointments book.
Easy, once you have built up a good reputation !
 
Great subject.

I hope Sabina enjoys that dog sledding. I hope you get a nice clear day. They ran by me on the lake ice the other day. (The two dots on the ice just off the point)

IMG_3232.JPG



Your 4x4 rental won't save you on icy roads. (Driving like a sane person will.)
The road from Calgary to Banff is basically level with a few curves. No mountain passes.

Here is a road report link.
Check the Cochrane and Canmore cameras to see the current road conditions.
http://511.alberta.ca/map.html#l=36&x=-12627247&y=6802017&z=2

If you are really concerned about the roads I'll be happy to drive you out to Banff for your holiday.
(Honestly)


For the dog sled ride they pick you up at the hotel and drive you there and back.


On to Apples to Apples:

Car rentals
If I follow your logic about costs you may want to reconsider your conclusion on that car rental. :)
Although, a jeep is not a jeep if they are not doing maintenance. Maybe that $30 is the savings on maintenance and not just profiteering!

I get where the frustration comes from with general statements as quoted.

Unlike Safari companies, with hotels there is a huge number of repeat data points available for comparison. (WWW)
In the data you can see the whiners (those who would never be pleased with anything) and you can see the starry eyed newcomers (who are just thrilled to be on a holiday) in the data and with enough information you can draw a reasonable conclusion for yourself to make a decision.
The whiners are usually the most useful. They will show you the worst parts and you can decide if they are legitimate points or not.

"Value for money" does not just get set out in the price. It is a personal perspective.

Both offer dog sled rides. Just like everyone can arrange a trip to Kruger.

Fairmont Banff Springs
37fa915d-15f1-4b59-88e2-67fefef02fe9.jpg


springs street.jpg


Fairly easy to compare rooms (top to bottom):
Royal Suite 1500 square feet with a 360 degree view. Rate: Trust me, we can't afford it. The Queen literally stays here.
Fairmont Room 200 square feet "castle like view" LMAO translated = Brick wall. $439 CAD / night


Banff Voyager Inn
Double Queen B&B $86.00 double / night.

banff voyager inn.jpg


The view:
voyager street view.jpg


Promo shots and Google Street View for comparison.
I think the difference is evident!



With day rates I can compare pretty quickly with what I am getting for my money if they are on the web and not purposefully misleading people. Crooks are harder to catch.

I once saw a promo picture of a "safari tent" in some guys back yard in the EC and he was charging the same day rate as a high end lodge. I just about laughed out loud.

Good PH or bad PH. The Outfitter charges me the same rate and you'll only find out once you get there.

(Warning, RANT) :E Red Hot:
Not pointed at you Chris.

The gouging that happened before the World Cup was pretty disgusting. But it shows how the "international" client can be easily taken advantage of.

Trophy Fees:
$800 to $6500 for a Trophy Kudu Bull. I can not even fathom the idiot paying $6500.
It must eat special lucerne and taste better. More likely he sat in a Boma and was fed Lucerne and is turned out a half hour before arrival and comes to a whistle.:sick:

Paying by the inch. Not on your life. :sick:
I'll just head to the Game Auction's and buy my own if that is what it is coming down to.
I want a well managed property that has a range of sizes of game. Natural/Self sustaining as you can make it.
Not over hunted to make a quick buck.

The current shift to quoting "nights" is pure BS.
Hunters are showing up to hunt. Accommodation is part of the deal, not the focus.
HUNTING DAYS.
This erosion is starting to make the safari business look like a used car lot.

Customer Service Rep: "Would you like wheels on your rental car sir?"
Customer: "That's extra! Really?"
Customer Service Rep: "How many would you like?"



This is all an extension of a VERY competitive industry. Getting a hunters attention and to have them actually show up.

There is also collusion.
I know some outfitters who have been directly pressured by other outfitters to RAISE their rates to the "local norm".
The guys were already making a good living at the "lower rates", but they cave because it is a small community.

I hear complaints about the number of PH Schools turning out endless numbers of PH's.
More competition.
Why wouldn't a young Southern African dream of being a PH Outfitter? It has to be one of the most lucrative businesses they can ever enter in to. Certainly all the young guys I went to PH school with had very bright eyes.

Doing business with new safari outfits is a risk for sure. They could still be making a great living at a lower rate. I have no idea what their costs are.
The good businessmen do stay for the long term.

Assess your risk tolerance and your perception of value for money.
It's very hard to do, be diligent but it is worth the effort in the end.
 
Brickburn I agree with most of what you stated, very true.

I hear complaints about the number of PH Schools turning out endless numbers of PH's.
More competition.
Why wouldn't a young Southern African dream of being a PH Outfitter? It has to be one of the most lucrative businesses they can ever enter in to. Certainly all the young guys I went to PH school with had very bright eyes.

This part I do have a different opinion on;)
There is already way more PH's in SA than there should be. Further more it is one of the few jobs out there that makes it detrimental to clients to have too many off.
Every new PH takes away the living of another, but far more they take away experiance and abillity from not only the industry but also the client.
Ask yourself who would you rather hunt with, a PH that spends 200days a year hunting or one who spends 7 days a year hunting just to keep his licence. There are some very serious PH's out there who have a passion for what they do and then there are those who thought it was a quick way to make money and have some adventure at the same time. Instead of pushing numbers (around 3000) I would prefer to see less PH's with more experiance. There is a reason very few PH's get to do what they love full time, too many bloody PH's:D Interesting though that despite the amount of PH's being pushed out in SA every year the active amount stay the same, so more experiance leaves and more new blood joins.
I cant see myself hunting with a PH that spends mabe 7-14 days a year hunting and getting to know a area, he cannot deliver what a experianced PH can.
There are also a few PH's that may have been hunting for too long, just another day types, but they are in the minority:)

Enough of my ranting:)
 
Here's my 2 cents worth. Everyone has brought up very good points. First off one thing is that things can have a drastic cost difference depending on where one is located. I spend two to three times more for animals where I'm at than do those farther south. I'm able to keep my cost down due to low over head though. There is a huge difference between getting goods and services in the middle of Zimbabwe as opposed to an hour outside of Jo-burg. Different levels of service, animals, and everything else that has already been mentioned. From the perspective of a client not an outfitter I can say it's all about what your dream hunt is to you. Some like to be wined and dined others would actually pay extra for a traditional tent safari. As said earlier different strokes for different folks. Even comparing similar hunts to each other it's never apples to apples per say between two different companies. Each has different but similar expenses and offers a different but similar experience. The key there is different. My expenses are definitly different than those of the large south Texas super ranches. But they are different from comparable ranches in my area. We may offer a similar hunt but our prices can vary a lot for the "same hunt". Reason is simple. We all offer different experiences. As long as an outfitter is operating in an honest way and delivering on his promises there is really no room for criticism. As far as making money goes, it's a business that's what businesses are supposed to do. Otherwise it wouldn't be a business long. Just because someone is making a good profit doesn't mean they are price gouging or bad. It means they have a successful business model and they're operation is a well oiled machine. Great post by the way I like discussions like this.
 
Chris, I see where you are coming from and understand your situation, however there is a different side to the coin, being different business models. Firstly I do not own a lodge and I don't want to. Reason being the exact costs you are talking about, maintenance, electricity wages etc. I use 3 and 4 star rated lodges which were inspected by nature conservation to be suitable for foreign hunters as is the norm.
These lodges do the catering, the laundry and supply most of the drinks. I am not going to name figures of my cost per person at a lodge because I think it is private. Included in this the lodge provides cooling facilities and skinners employed by them. Then I must add that on most hunts there will be more than one client which immediately changes the picture.
Also in the model I use value adding brings profit from other sources, I have a butchery and biltong factory which makes a big difference between what you get paid for carcasses and what I get. We also have a share in a taxidermy, where even if we only do dipping makes a big difference.
Not added in your model is the profit made on animals hunted. I am also sure you are aware that on certain hunts,( obviously the more expensive hunts) the farm and lodge owner includes a few days for hunter and PH in the package.
Some of the members on here have left deposits with me for up to two years. I must add I charge a small deposit per group and not per hunter to ensure comfortability for the client. On most of the farms I use there is a full time employed PH, most of who I now have long time relations with who helps with the hunts included in the dayrates I pay.

I think each outfitters situation is unique and perception should not be formed without looking deeper.

Looking forward to meeting you in Calgary!

Pieter, I think we are on the same page... Although we might be reading it a little differently...

I don't own a "lodge" either and I'm not employing a whole bunch of staff. In fact; I don't believe I employ more staff than what you probably do where you live in Gauteng... What I have is a piece of land with comfortable accommodations and game on it and I've hosted quite a few clients here over the years... Outside the hunting season, my "Tracker" is my gardener, maintenance manager, fence checker and a whole bunch more... Only inside season the title: "Tracker" is added to his list of responsibilities - for that he gets paid more - but only when we're hunting... His wife helps out in and around the house and in addition I have one permanent staff member who does laundry for guests, cleans their rooms and cleans dishes. I don't think it is possible to do any of this more economically than what I'm doing at present...

I do most of my hunting on land owned by others because the land we own can only sustain take-off of so many animals every season and the demand is much higher than what our land can offer...

But having said this; whether I hunt on someone else's property or my own - my basic costs in terms of hosting clients remain the same. I still use my own Tracker(s) - because I know and trust him/them and I will let no one other than him/them skin my clients' trophies. I still use my own chef - because she is part of the business and with her - I know what my clients and I get served... (plus I get to sleep with her of course - a so-called "fringe benefit";))

You're right of course; when one adds the profit you make on the mark-up on trophy fees it most certainly changes the financials... Especially if you're turning the game meat into and selling it as biltong as opposed to selling the meat outright...

However; in my mind this is a different segment (division) of the business which should be looked at separately as it has its own pro's, cons and business dynamics...

From what I've learned (and I'm sure you know this and it was not your intention to imply that it does not); one "division" of a business should never subsidize another in order for the business to be profitable as a whole.

Looking forward to meeting up with you in Calgary too! And just to be clear - this post was not aimed at you or anyone else specifically.

Best,

Chris
 
Brickburn I agree with most of what you stated, very true.



This part I do have a different opinion on;)
There is already way more PH's in SA than there should be. Further more it is one of the few jobs out there that makes it detrimental to clients to have too many off.
Every new PH takes away the living of another, but far more they take away experiance and abillity from not only the industry but also the client.
Ask yourself who would you rather hunt with, a PH that spends 200days a year hunting or one who spends 7 days a year hunting just to keep his licence. There are some very serious PH's out there who have a passion for what they do and then there are those who thought it was a quick way to make money and have some adventure at the same time. Instead of pushing numbers (around 3000) I would prefer to see less PH's with more experiance. There is a reason very few PH's get to do what they love full time, too many bloody PH's:D Interesting though that despite the amount of PH's being pushed out in SA every year the active amount stay the same, so more experiance leaves and more new blood joins.
I cant see myself hunting with a PH that spends mabe 7-14 days a year hunting and getting to know a area, he cannot deliver what a experianced PH can.
There are also a few PH's that may have been hunting for too long, just another day types, but they are in the minority:)

Enough of my ranting:)

Good perspective.

I can now say that I have hunted with a brand new hot of the press PH. There is a significant difference in performance levels between the guy who has hunted a lot and knows people and the game.
I walked into it knowing that I would have to use my skills as well. Not an issue.
I do see how it can negatively impact your experience.
Most hunters without experience (first timers) will never know the difference.

Most of the graduates never have a chance.
The market shakes them out in a big rush.

I'm in strange position regarding experience in comparison to most hunters.
I can tell you out of my class of PH graduates there are three that I know of that are working in the industry. Three years after the fact: One in a related field, another as a very PT PH and the other as an actual outfitter.
I have only hunted with two of them during the course and the other I took hunting with me on my last visit.
I had much more experience working with people than two of them. (Age related fact.)
They should all be getting their legs underneath themselves shortly I'd think. It is interesting to note that there is a very low percentage that are actually working as PH's.
 
wayne great scenery in that lake photo , but it looks like it might be a little bit on the cold side even if the sun is shining.........:)

That's why they loan or rent those extra cloths for folks coming in from out of town.
(I obviously have my own -75C boots I can wear)

After looking into Chris's trip it looks like mushing is really very popular.
 
Chris, I am very glad you posted this thread, it gives all of us the opportunity to answer questions that many must have thought about. It also helps to clear wrong perceptions. Calling comfortable accommodation a "lodge" is just a word widely used. I also employ one tracker and skinner full time who does most of the work. As I stated the lodges I use , has their own, I have been working with them for a few years, and trust them.
Unfortunately my "home" chef is in a career of her own and cannot travel with me.
Well from what I learned(my major subjects were, economics ,accounting, and marketing), one division of a business can create a competitive advantage for another division that is just part of a marketing plan. Subsidizing it would in most instances mean that a certain division is working at a loss which is not the case.
I did definitely not see it aimed at me, however as Brickburn stated in his post I was also contacted by other outfits trying to push me into raising prices. This means that whenever something like this comes up I feel totally comfortable to explain my pricing. There is actually a few outfits who advertise on here at lower prices than I do.
 
Brickburn I agree with most of what you stated, very true.



This part I do have a different opinion on;)

There is already way more PH's in SA than there should be. Further more it is one of the few jobs out there that makes it detrimental to clients to have too many off.

Every new PH takes away the living of another....

I understand your comments but will respectfully disagree.

Do I like it when a newbie comes into my industry, bids on contracts and take them away from me. NO. I complain and grumble like most. Free enterprise however is great. It keeps us on our toes. If we do a good job at a fair price we will survive and thrive. We will figure out where we can cut costs or provide a greater value for the money. Without competition we would raise our prices to a point that it hurts our industry and customers can't afford our services. "Pigs get fat....hogs get slaughtered"

At one time or another each and every PH in SA was a newbie, struggling to get by. The ones that couldn't compete have gone elsewhere where their talents are rewarded at the appropriate compensation level. The ones that proved themselves are the ones that are in business today with repeat clientele. As has been noted above, some get to the point they don't have to market themselves very much. We the hunters market their product for them as happy clients. The market does a much better job of weeding out the weak than the government or a PH organization. Do some provide a shoddy service. Yes, but in the end they won't be very successful or will fail.

Your last comment, "Every new PH takes away the living of another....". This is not true when the pie is growing. If the pie is not growing or is shrinking this is a true statement. But what is wrong with that happening. In my industry do I deserve to stay around if I am not competitive with the new people coming in? What gives an old PH the right to take away the living of a new PH if the new PH provides a better product at a better price?

Free Enterprise ROCKS! Love it and embrace it and it will treat you very well!

All the best.
 

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Pancho wrote on Safari Dave's profile.
Enjoyed reading your post again. Believe this is the 3rd time. I am scheduled to hunt w/ Legadema in Sep. Really looking forward to it.
check out our Buff hunt deal!
Because of some clients having to move their dates I have 2 prime time slots open if anyone is interested to do a hunt
5-15 May
or 5-15 June is open!
shoot me a message for a good deal!
dogcat1 wrote on skydiver386's profile.
I would be interested in it if you pass. Please send me the info on the gun shop if you do not buy it. I have the needed ammo and brass.
Thanks,
Ross
Jackal hunt on triggercam,

 
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