.460 WBY

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by GKC, Sep 16, 2010.

?

which big game rifle to get?

Poll closed Oct 31, 2010.
  1. The Weatherby .460

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  2. The Weatherby .375

    1 vote(s)
    9.1%
  3. something else

    7 vote(s)
    63.6%
  1. GKC

    GKC New Member

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    I have the opportunity to get a brand new .460 Weatherby to bring on my first African hunt that I plan to go on late next year... I've had quite a few people try to convince me to get something else (smaller, such as a .375).. they claim that it's going to be too much gun for me and most game.... more over they also warn me that many PH's won't allow the "Accubrake" tip that now comes standard on these for noise reasons..

    Shall I listen to these few nay sayers? or shall I go for it?

    Lastly.. is this gun versatile enough to use on smaller game? maybe with a 350 grain and lighter powder load? or does it suffer poor accuracy that way?

    Any input from people who actually have owned or own this weapon is much appreciated!
     
  2. Kiwi505

    Kiwi505 AH Veteran

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    May not be the best overall choice but I would go for it.

    I understand that this rifle can be very accurate, however there is a cavet. You must learn to shoot it well!!
     
  3. Koedoeberg

    Koedoeberg AH Veteran

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    I can't comment on the 460 but I have a 375 .

    The gun that I use most of the time is 30-06 ruger . Most of the hunters that use it are also happy with it . My problem was that when we hunt wildebeest with the 30-06 the bullet wouldn't go through the animal .

    Using the 375 just makes life easier , the energy that it has is a lot more than the 30-06 . It leaves a much better blood trail with the 375 and gives the hunter behind the gun just that extra confidence.

    I think the 460 might make it difficult to shoot the longer distance plains game shots. If you are planning to use it for big 5 most of the time then I think the 460 is fine . But as an all rounder I think the 375 is a good choice .

    We have a 458 on the farm and almost never use it . Bullets are expensive , the gun is a bit heavy for walking the whole day and the recoil makes most hunters flinch.

    Try testing both on a shooting range at different distances if you can .
    I think the best all rounder is the 300 win-mag.

    On our farm the bush is dense and we don't shoot further than 120 meters most of the time . I'm very happy with the 375 . But it's recoil is a lot more than a 30-06
     
  4. almostacowboy77

    almostacowboy77 AH Member

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    i think I can say with full conviction - you will not like shooting the 460. Its recoil factor is 4X that of a 375 H&H and is like shooting the 600 Nitro, ammo is very expensive and hard to get by comparison. Where the .375 H&H is considered "suitable for any game" you'll never hear that said of a Weatherby 460 - or of the 375 for that matter.
     
  5. 505ED

    505ED AH Veteran

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    A 460 is a great weapon, and is damn effictive. If I was just doing plains game, I'd leave it at home (except with griaffe maybe). If you have never shot one, do so before spending the dough. Its a lot of gun that does alot great. I have a 378 WBY that is hell on wheels, but it takes mental effort to shoot it well, and I must practice weeks ahead before I hunt with it (and I fall out of practice often). On the break I say--who is paying for the hunt? I'd pass out earplugs at the first of the hunt, and if they turned them down its there fault. Your paying, and if it is with in reason use it. If you want the 460 get it... just Know it is puppy that has to be trained. Not a dog that takes care of itself.

    Good bullets, try it with a 400 TSX bullet, Holy Cow!!!!!

    Ed
     
  6. GKC

    GKC New Member

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    that's a rather bold statement.... I assume if that were true, Weatherby would have long since discontinued it, no?

    I understand the warnings about the recoil/kick... and I'm well aware of the cost of ammunition. I have shot the .460 twice before, once with and once without the brake and found it manageable so long as one doesn't need to fire a series of shots with rapid succession... the brake makes a HUGE difference and thus why I'd like to have mine on both for practice at the range, and on the hunt (earplugs are cheap indeed).. My thing is this... I don't want to take ANY risks at all with dangerous game... I want it dead, and dead fast.. "Enough" isn't enough... I want overkill... I can learn to shoot anything straight (I started my life as an M1A1 crewman shooting a smoothbore 120mm)... big guns and recoil don't scare me (with in reason... no interest in an H&H 700).. but the way I see it... The gun is secondary to the hunter/shooter.. but if the hunter/shooter is good with it, then he should use the most powerful gun her can in DG hunts..

    Furthermore, I believe that .375 is considered "Minimum" for big game hunts.. which is not quite as confidence inspiring sounding as "suitable" .. just an observation.


    Or did I miss something?
     
  7. Rastaman

    Rastaman AH Veteran

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    GKC,
    I read your last post and then had to go back and read again your first. Your first post asks a question about your first big game rifle purchase for your first African hunt. In your last post you provide the feedback of an expert.

    The .460 kicks like a mule. You do need to fire a series of shots. You will be at a disadvantage walking around in the bush with earplugs in. The muzzle brake will possibly injure your PH or your trackers who will definitely not be using earplugs.
    You did not put the 120 MM to your shoulder. The .375 is more than enough gun but if you want more there are others to consider. Are you hunting dangerous game? If not, you dont need a cannon, what you need is to be able to shoot accurately and without a flinch, without a muzzle brake.
    Dont take this the wrong way, I dont care what you buy and I am not trying to be an ass, but you did ask and you have been given some pretty good advice on this issue.
     
  8. GKC

    GKC New Member

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    I just found the answer given to be a by hyperbolic and decided to play devils advocate that's all.. I like critical information such as what you provided above on the muzzle break and noise.. As for my intent with the new gun.. I have hunted bear, Plains Buffalo and Elk... I'm ready to kick it up a notch, travel 20 hours, spend $20,000+ and down something seriously big... Cape Buff, Rhino, something seriously big and dangerous is what I desire.. I guess it would have been helpful of me to put that in my first post. So, no, I am not a novice to big game, but I am new to African DG and I don't want to get killed by a charging animal.
     
  9. Big5

    Big5 AH Enthusiast

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    GKC, I think the above advice offered by 'Rastaman' is quite sound. However, in view of the concern voiced in your above statement perhaps you should, as you say, "kick it up a notch" and consider the purchase of a big bore double rather than a bolt action rifle.

    Life is full of both uncertainty and danger and one is wise to take reasonable steps to guard himself. But in my humble opinion I think you as a client hunter stand a greater chance of getting killed in a car accident than an animal charge.
     
  10. Rastaman

    Rastaman AH Veteran

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    GKC,

    Here are some additional thoughts...For buff the .375 is good, a .416 Rigby better, the .460 is great if you shoot it well. However, anything in the .400s should give you ample insurance. For Elephant a .375 is a little light, that .460 will do the job plenty and your going to be taking the shot at 15 yards or so hopefully accuracy will not be a problem. Again, something in the high .400s should give you ample confidence. I personally like my double .470 NE on Elephant because, like you said, you cant have too much gun when dealing with these guys.

    I know nothing about Rhino so someone else will need to chime in here.

    On everything else the .460 is just not worth the recoil. As someone else said, its is difficult caliber to master and shoot well. So....if you are going after Elephant, I would completely endorse the caliber, but then in that case why not go bigger?

    Finally, you sound like an experienced hunter so you know that what is most important is that you are comfortable and shoot the gun well. I always carry my .375 and have someone carry it in the field. I have fired hundreds of rounds through it and it feels like an extension of my arms. If it had more knockdown power I would use it for everything....(maybe not because I love my double .470!!) Your first shot is always the most important. I have a .460 in my cabinet and I am not good with it. Shooting is mental and mentally I am not in tune with that caliber. There is no caliber that does everything. So consider what you are hunting. If its elephant then buy the .460, or step it up to a .470 and stop screwing around!!! Then just take your elk rifle for plains game. Hope this helps in your decision.
     
  11. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    If you want to see the look of disgust on the face of a PH, just be around when a first time safari client shows up in camp with a shiny new Weatherby rifle chambered for 460 WBY MAG , with a muzzle brake that can’t be removed for hunting.

    A far better choice would be either a RugerRSM 458 LOTT or 416 Rem Mag, or a CZ 55o chambered for 404! Both rifles are CRF, and are easy to shoot accurately, and get in multiple shots in short order accurately on cape buffalo, which is most ofen a need on buffalo. The recoil of those cartridges makes a lot of pre-safari practice a must, and all of them will do anything the 460 Wby Mag will with less recoil, and the ear damaging noise from a muzzle brake! Even better would be a nice 470NE double rifle!

    I can't think of a more useless rifle/cartridge combination to take on dangerous game in Africa, or anyplace else than a 460 Wby Mag! I certainly don't want to be in the safari party with one, and you will find in short order that PHs, and tracker staff don't either! With all the fine chamberings, and rifles available for this purpose, the amateur will always learn the hard way.

    There is an old German saying that applies here: VEE GETZ TOO SOON OLT, UND TOO SOON SHMART!

    AND..........................I'm out of here
     
  12. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Dugaboy........thank you for that post. :)
     
  13. Big5

    Big5 AH Enthusiast

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    Dugaboy, excellent advice. Thanks for giving this post a more practical and experienced perspective.
    . . . . And BTW, you are so very right about that old german saying. It certainly does apply here.
     
  14. 505ED

    505ED AH Veteran

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    Dugaboy,

    Lots of truth, I think a 404 or a Lott is a more sound option than any 460. I have shot a number of 460's and they get your attention--the problem most PHs have is not the 460 it is the new and shiny part. I happen to know one guy that has used the 460 quite abit and he is absolutely deadly with it--it has a break on it and i know he has carried it on well over 10 of his 30+ safaris. Dont think his PH and staff ask him about it, or it effected his hunt in anyway.

    The other thing that I dont agree with is the CRF, I will not harp on it but my partner and I laugh about this all the time. We have guys that come into the shop and they have to have a CRF DGR. One of our sayings is--most DGR I know of are all push feed--HK G3,M16,MP-5,M1A,AK47--seems to me they work when people are shooting back --thats dangerous. I can wad up a M98 everytime--if you dont seat the cartridge to the back of the mag it will jam about 80% of the time. We had a guy with a very nice custom Pre-64 M70 in the shop one day about 1 1/2 ago expounding the virtues of CRF. I told him I'd take the Pepsi challenge with him. I take my old 9.3x62 in a Sauer and we would cycle them until one wadded up. We made it 26 rounds of fast and slow cycle and the winnie wadded up one of the fast cycle! My little inline feed Sauer feed and shucked all that it was fed, and is still doing so today--and it is a push feed.

    I'm not trying to cause problems just, enjoy reading other points of view.

    Ed
     
  15. MarineHawk

    MarineHawk AH Senior Member

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    I couldn't agree more. To the best I can estimate, in the last 24 years, I have shot more-than 12,000 rounds through the four push-feed bolt action hunting rifles I have owned (one M77; one 700 BDL; and two Mark Vs). I literally never have had any signle failure to fire. Not once in more-than 12,000 rounds. Including many shots in all kinds of horrible conditions. I've had some failures with every other type of firearm I have owned or shot--including even single-action revolvers. Never once (I use only factory ammo) has a push-feed bolt action rifle failed to go "boom" when I pulled the trigger. I know of almost nothing else I own of any kind (weapons aside) that will work more-than 12,000 times in a row.

    A lot of well-meaning people advised me to "make sure you take a CRF" on my recent brown bear hunt. I almost think it's become an iconic or faddish, rather than truly insightful, expression of advice. I think this guy gets it about right:

    I’m not trying to ruffle feathers either, but I’m pretty sure, and am willing to bet, that my push-feed bolt rifles will go “boom” each of the next 12,000 times I pull the trigger with good factory ammo in the chamber.

    I personally feel more comfortable relying in dangerous situations on the much shorter bolt throw and lower bolt lift of the Mark Vs than any other bolt rifle I have shot, including Mausers. That's partly because I am so used to, and comfortable with, the maintenance and mechanics of those rifles after many years. But that's just because I have much more experience with them. Good Mauser actions are GREAT. I never would advise that anyone not get one. If I was more used to them, I might insist on only buying/shooting Mausers. But I shun the idea that other options necessarily are lesser ones. To me, bolt-action reliability more is a function of the quality of the design and the manufacturing process and user mechanics than it is a function of the simple CRF vs. push-feed distinction.
     
  16. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    505ED, and MarineHawk You certainly have a right to your opinions, and since this is the USA, for the time being at least, you may own what ever firearm you choose, the hunt what ever you choose with it!

    I too, have no desire to cause conflict but I'm simply of a different opinion than you. So if we can stay civil, it would be far better for the other folks here who want both sides of the debate.

    I have my opinion, and that opinion is based on 67 years since the age of six, of owning just about every make an model of rifle made during that time, and hunting everything for English sparrow with a Daisey BB gun to cape buffalo hippo, and elephant with bolt single shot and double rifles.

    Let me say that any rifle regardless of type needs to be made, and adjusted to feed flawlessly before it is taken afield, especially for any animals that has the ability to kill you, or another member of your hunting party. Anyone who has fired 12000 rounds through a push feed rifle, especially a mod 700 Rem with out a hitch is a very lucky person for sure. I own some push feed rifles, including two Rem rifles, a 7mm mag mod 700 that belonged to my dad, and a 788 rifle chambered for 223, and have owned several other makes of PF rifles, however I don not use them to hunt dangerous game. I haven't had a malfunction from mine but I doubt the 700 has had more than a 20 round box of ammo through it because I never shoot it. The little 788 has maybe 500 rounds through it, while coyote calling with one shot each on coyotes. Of the hundreds of CRF rifles I've owned over the last 67 years with hundreds of rounds through each of them I' have never had one to miss feed a round, or eject an empty, or loaded round.


    The example of the JUNK military rifles being push feed is not a good recommendation for push feed, it is only a recommendation for cheap manufacturing! The military rifle is set up to be used in a fire team, and the idea is to fill the airspace with rounds and hope the enemy gets hit. If the rifle jams, the rest of the team is there to sustain fire till the jam can be cleared. In door to door street fighting jams in those stamped out POS get a lot of GIs killed. Top that off with the fact that about the only way to make automatic weapons is with push feed actions, but they are still volley fire types, one depending on the other to finish a firefight. The 700s used by snipers are not you over the counter 700s, and there is little need for quick sustained fore for a sniper. He usually fire one shot from concealment, and lays low so he doesn't draw fire to his position, so the PF is PK there too.

    The problem with a PF BOLT rifle on dangerous game is when the action get close and the need arises for three or four shots in very shot order, with your life on the line, and with damn little time to do the shooting. The nerves play a very important part in this scenario. The mind seems to work faster than the body, and your body is still doing the first job given it by the brain, when the brain give the body a second task in the middle of the process of accomplishing the first one.

    This is where the body stops on job in the middle, and starts the next one before the first one is finished. Here is the problem that can't be duplicated in your shop unless you have a cape Buffalo or lion rushing you in there too! This is where the SHORT SHIFT happens, but the name given to this phenomenon is miss leading, because most think this means you don't pull the bolt far enough back to pick up a cartridge off the magazine. This is not what is meant by that phrase. The real meaning is something that cannot happen with a CRF action. Before you say it, let me say here that both PF, and CRF should be working properly before going into the field, starting out both feeding properly. The short shift in the PF action is a problem because the bolt never takes position, or control of the cartridge that it has just stripped of the top of the magazine till the bolt is pushed all the way home, and the handle turned DOWN. Then and only then does it take control of the round, leaving the round loose in the action of the rifle. Here is the short shift because of the hurry of your brain being faster than the hurry of your body the body tries to take the second order before finishing the first. So the first round is either chambered but the bolt not turned dawn, or the action is stopped before the round is chambered, and the body hear the second command, and draws the bolt back, then forward again stripping another round off the magazine! NOW what you have is two rounds in the loading tray vying for one chamber, and when the bolt is slammed forward the second time there is no place for that round to go, or both get pushed forward till both BULLETS enter the back of the chamber jamming the rifle so tightly that tools are most times required to clear the jam. Time you don't have before the buff or Leo get to you.

    I this same scenario with a CRF action the first round would simply be ejected when the bolt was pulled back prematurely, before a new round can be stripped off the top of the magazine. The next round cannot be stripped of the magazine with a cartridge already in the bolt face of a CRF action.

    If anyone here thinks these things cannot happen to you with a Lion getting very close you have another think coming. I have seen it happen with PF actions, and on one occasion I saw a friend who had never seen a MULEDEER get so flustered that when the deer jumped up 50 feet in front of him he got so excited that he jacked all of the seven 30-30 rounds out of the rifle and never pulled the trigger once, than asked me if he had hit the deer. He was so shaken that he didn't know he had not fired the rifle at all, and didn't believe me till I pointed out the round on the ground still loaded. NOW that was with only getting in a hurry to get of the next shot before the big deer got away, what do you think this guy would have done with a bolt rifle, facing a charging cape buffalo that his first shot hand no effect? The CRF action is simply a stopgap to keep the idiot working the bolt from getting a jam form a short shift, and can and does happen in such situations. The rifle works perfectly as it was designed in both cases! It is the nut behind the trigger that failed, but the failure is guarded against with the CRF action. Since they cost no more than the PF then my question is why not have the added protection of the CRF?

    There was a long time Brown bear guide in Alaska who used a SAKO 375 for years without a mishap. Till one day he had to go into the alders with a gut shot brown bear shot by a client. He short shifted his very well made Sako rifle jamming two rounds in the rifle so tightly it took pliers to remove the two rounds from the beginning of the chamber. The round weren't remove by the guide, because he was mauled very badly by the bear before the client shot the bear off him. He now carries a late CRF Mod 70 458 Win Mag. This guide was one of those folks who said My PF Sako has never failed me in 20 odd years and the short shift can't happen to some one who knows his rifle!
     
  17. MarineHawk

    MarineHawk AH Senior Member

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    Mausers jam too. As the article I lnked (link was removed for some wierd reason [I really don't unbderstand the fear of other publications on here---everyone knows they exist]*) above said:

    So the brown bear guide, who had a push feed fail possibly for the first time after decades, switched to a CRF. And the guy who had a Mauser lock up with an elephant charging him probably switched to a push feed. There's annectotal stories to support every point of view. I go with what has worked flawlessly for me for decades. If there's less than a 1/12,000 chance my rifle will fail, that's acceptable. Nothing, including any CRF is 100 percent reliable, especially if you don't work the bolt correctly.

    As I said before, and this is dispositive for me, the Mark Vs require less work, force, and movement to work the bolt properly. For me, they're more reliable than an action that, like any, can misfeed if handled improperly, and which requires greater force and movement to work the bolt. That's just my opinion and experience. But generally, for people who are competent, serious, and pwell-practiced, I think what may work most reliably for them is what they may be highly familiar with---CRF or push-feed.

    *This is one of the reasons I don't post more on here. I assume some others feell the same, and the site has less traffic than they would if they would just let people cite to reference materials to support their statements. Just my $0.02
     
  18. browningbbr

    browningbbr AH Enthusiast

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    GKC,
    From the content of your initial post, I am making the assumption that you have not shot the 460 WBY.

    Since you are soliciting others' advice about whether a 375 H&H is a better choice, it at least indicates that you have not shot that caliber either.

    Per some of the advice already offered, you really should think twice about the 460.

    I only own one big bore (416 Rigby) and I don't have the range of experiences that some of the other commenting forum members have. However, it seems to me that if you don't have a lot of experience with big bore rifles, you owe it to yourself to at least SHOOT the calibers that you are considering. You need to know if you can live with the recoil and if you can shoot it multiple times without flinching.

    Not everyone can handle a god-awful cannon like the 460. My 416 took a bit of time to get used to even though I was already in the habit of shooting my 300 mag and 7mm mag quite often.

    Previous threads by PH's and folks far more experienced than me have stressed that taking a rifle that you shoot well is FAR more important than the caliber selection or taking a "big thumper" rifle.

    I apologize in advance if I sound like a know-it-all or if I am lecturing. That was not my intent. As a member of this forum I just felt that I should point out things you should consider.

    - browningbbr

    PS: I have shot the 460 WBY once. It was not fun.
     
  19. 505ED

    505ED AH Veteran

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    Dugaboy, and Marinehawk

    Valid points on both sides. I have a small gun business and deal in Sauer, Styer, and Mauser. I have guys that come in and tell me how great the M98 and M70 are. They are--there great rifles, but not the only rifles. One of the most postive feed rifles I have seen in some time is the Sauer 200/202. It is a single stack feed and will feed empty's and different brands of ammo just as slick as snot. I would bet my families life and my own with that action and it is a push feed--but I sell them and am very fimiliar with them.

    I have never "Short shifted" a gun so I cannot speak on this. I will say that we have more feeding problems with custom CRF guns than almost all others--thats is because we try to shove everything from a 22-250 to a 500 jeffery in a M98 (when it was supposed to feed a 8x57 and 7x57). My partner is a gunsmith and the other day we had a very fine 500 jeffery made by a well known gunmaker (I think everyone would know him) that would not feed. The first round went great number 2 would wad up everytime. My partner converted it to feed out of the center and it fed like lighting. I think that rifle cost around 12K when the gent purchaced it---so Dugaboy1 your right no matter what they need to be tried and true before taken to the field.

    I think what I will do, when I get time. I will take 3 CRF actions and 3 PF actions and go head to head and put them on video. Maybe a M98, CZ 550 and a M70, Against a Sauer 202/Styer prohunter/remington 700. Should be cool (my project for Oct ;) )

    Ed
     
  20. Kiwi505

    Kiwi505 AH Veteran

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    Maybe add a winchester M70 to the mix ED!!:D Along with a Rigby in 375 H&H!!:p

    I think that the bottom line is, be completely familiar with your rifle. Practise, practise, practise and then practise some more!! Whether or not it is a weatherby 460 or a or a ruger in 30.06 it doses not matter. Have a rifle that fits you and that you are comfortable with.:)
     

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