458 Lott Ballistics

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by oscar1975, May 1, 2009.

  1. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    Hello again, my intention is to know a little better ballistics caliber 458 Lott, and especially effective distance of the cartridge. I hope not to bother.

    Thank you,

    Oscar.
     
  2. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

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    Oscar,
    I would rate the 458 Lott as a good 200 yard Cape Buffalo caliber..Properly handloaded with IMR-4320 it will propell a 500 gr. bullet at 2350 FPS or a tad more in a longer barrel..

    I used one for awhile and after shooting several buffalo I loaded it down to 2150 to 2200 FPS, got very mild pressure, and it killed buffalo, elephant, Lion and about everything else very well indeed.

    I suspect one could hit and kill a buffalo at up to 300 yards or so, if he was a mind to do so...The caliber is very capable...but I wouldn't do that myself..The furtherist I have shot a buffalo with the Lott was about 50 to 75 yards. The Lott is a very capable and excellent caliber for all the heavy dangerous animals of our world..

    The longest shot I have ever made on a buffalo was at 225 yards with a .416 Remington, 385 gr. Northfork soft, the one and only instant kill on a buff that I have ever made with heart/lung shot. He just tipped over on his nose dead..The PH, A.J. van Heerden, called him the teapot bull, A.J. said, "Hey boy,he just tipped over on his nose like a tea pot." :)
     
  3. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Ray..........I think your assessment of the Lott is bang on. Just because we can get 2350 fps out of it doesn't mean we want to or need to. The beauty of it is that you can easily get the 2150-2200 fps that is arguably just about perfect with 500 grain .458 bullets, without loading it to max. pressure.
     
  4. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    I have read on other sites to which this cartridge reaches 2300 fps, pressure is also dangerous to reach the gun and the shooter, especially in warm environments such as the field which uses this type of rifle. I stay with the data can reduce to a buffalo out of the approximate distance of 300 yards.

    Thank you very much,

    Oscar.
     
  5. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

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    Oscar,
    I have built a number of .458 Lotts, and with a 26 inch barrel I have gotten as much as a chronographed 2500 FPS plus a tad and yes that was a hot load, but it did not cause me problems in 90 plus degree weather..Keep in mind that I was testing this particular rifle to see where I could actually go with it before the real signs showed up and thats about where the cratered primers, ejector indentions showed up and a sticky bolt on one load..It was too hot a load but it was a super charge of IMR-4320 in new brass...Case expansion was too much but primer pockets remained a tad loose but still usable..

    All of my Lotts handled 2350 FPS very easily and I hunted Africa a good deal with this load..Even in some very hot climate temps it worked just fine..Its real drawback was recoil, and it was damn grim to say the least..Also the only powder that will get you there is IMR-4320 and keep you within reasonalble pressures..

    I beleive that 84 grs of IMR-4320 is a proper load at about 2300 FPS in most Lotts if you can handle the recoil..but 80 grs. at about 2150 is nicer to shoot and will lay low a Ty Rex with one well placed shot.

    A great article on the Lott and reloading for it was in the 1991 May-June issue of Rifle magazine #135, After reading that article and loading data back then, got my first Lott and had a short but hot love affair with it, that probably led to my chronic Bursitas in my neck an shoulders and my bad hearing!! according to my crackpot client who is a doctor and a very close friend or was until this post! :) :)

    An interesting and efficient caliber if ever there was one..If I ever build another however it will be a full length .300 case such as the African boys have adopted...That is just more of the same and that makes it more better!:)
     
  6. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    I use to have a bunch of reading material from Jack Lott on the cartridge, but alas, I loaned it out.............never to be seen again.

    It is a good cartridge............allows you to get the practical velocities you need with low pressure. Can't really improve on it much.

    I honestly do not see much need for any .458 cartridge pumping them out much over the 2300 mark. Beyond that I think I would want to go to more frontal area and a heavier bullet at similar velocities than just more speed. But that is just my opinion.
     
  7. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    Hi, really I tell you that all your answers are enriching for me, but I also tell you that when translated with google translator often lose the meaning, the nuance that makes the men are fully understood. I concluded that the 458 Lott is a great caliber and that I was not mistaken if I buy a rifle in this caliber.

    Thank you,

    Oscar.
     
  8. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Oscar, Skyline, and Ray The main reason for the 458LOTT was to get rid of the problems experienced with the 458 Win Mag in it's infancy, back in 1954. My opinion is the 458 Win Mag, was brought out because the ammo supply for the 450NE 3.25" was drying up, in fact all the NE rounds were being discontinued. Most think the 458 Win Mag was introduced to duplicate the 470NE in a bolt rifle, but that is not true, the target was the 450NE 3.25".

    The 458 Win Mag had a bad problem misfires, and hang fires back in the 1950s. Powders were not only very sensitive to heat, but the ball powder used in that cartridge from the factory was fine when fresh on Winchester's range during the testing for the factory ammo. The problem was the ball powder tended to "CAKE" after a while because of the small case capacity necessitating a crush load to get enough powder to push the 500 gr bullet to 2150 fps, which is something they never got in the real world. This "CAKING" caused the hang-fires, and very under power loads resulting in some real problems at some very desperate times. The 458 Win Mag is fine today,but it took 50 yrs or so for the powders we have today to come about to make the 458 Win Mag reliable.

    The 458 LOTT is what the 458 Win Mag should have been in the first place, and the problems would have never happened. The 450NE 3.25" made 2150 with a 480 gr soft or solid, and was the cartridge that all others were judged by in African hunting. Winchester should have started with the 458 LOTT, in the full length 375 H&H case, chambered in the Win Mod 70, which is a full length action, and only loaded to the velocities of what they tried to get in the 458 Win Mag. The Hunting world would have accepted it right off the bat.

    RAY is an experimenter, and loves to see what can be done with any cartridge! Nothing wrong with that, but his results are not always needed to do the job at hand. He likes the 26" barrels because they hold steadier for off hand shooting,which he is very good at, and increase velocity with the same load as it does in a shorter barrel. I'm on the opposite end of the opinion, in that I simply want no more than what is required to get the job done, with as low pressure as is possible, and with as little recoil as I can get.

    I have a 458 LOTT, and I load mine to 2150 with Woodliegh 480 gr softs, and solids (duplicating the old 450 NE). The recoil is manageable enough so the rifle doesn't have to weigh a ton, and makes the rifle easy to shoot well. I see absolutely no need for a 300 yd Cape Buffalo rifle. What is the point? To me the only reason I hunt dangerous game is BECAUSE it is DANGEROUS! No animal is dangerous at 300 yds! :wink2:
     
  9. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    Now there you go Dugaboy1...................here I was refraining from boring everyone with the history of the .458 Win. and the creation of the Lott, as I know it and I know Ray knows it..........but you went and did it anyways.;)

    Probably a good idea actually as there are undoubtedly lots of people not in the older than dirt category who don't know the history of it.
     
  10. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    True, I do not see ethical shoot an elephant or a buffalo at 300 yards. But I was curious to know the effective range of this cartridge. Same with a bullet of 400 grains can be used to elands and similar animals, which perhaps should be shot farther.

    Thank you,

    Oscar.
     
  11. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

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    Dugaboy and Skyline,
    I can't find a thing to disagree with you guys on!! :) but then when your in that kind of company its pretty to hard to argue with them..Dugably nailed it and nailed me with it btw..:) :) Great posts ya'll, interesting and informative and spot on.
     
  12. Heeler75

    Heeler75 AH Senior Member

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    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Jack Lott work up the 458 Lott after he had subpar performance on a hunt with a 458 Win Mag?
     
  13. DUGABOY1

    DUGABOY1 CONTRIBUTOR AH Enthusiast

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    Heeler75 That is the common legend, and is partly correct! The fact is he, among others had problems with Hangfires, and duds with the 458 Win Mag ammo, and he did get tossed by a cape buffalo , but not because of the 458 WM.

    He simply thought he would try to solve the problem he and some others were haveing with the 458 WM, and the full length 375 H&H case was the fix, giveing the 458 WM just enough more podwer capacity to cure the caking problem caused by the crushing of the powder, by seating the 500 gr bullet. The real extra with this LOTT version "TODAY" is the fact that 458 WM ammo can be used in a Lott chamber if ammo is lost in trasite!
     
  14. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

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    Or perhaps Jack needed some extra cash and was pulling at the cork back then, but the bottom line is it did make for some interesting reading, and probably brought about one of the argueably best cartridges for dangerous game yet....If it was not for the rather heinous recoil, I would have chosen it for my go get'um DGR...but alas it does have a back poke that offends my gentle nature.
     
  15. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    Hi, I have an argument with a friend, and that has a 458 Winchester Magnum, and he said that the caliber drives faster a bullet of 500 grains, he says that the -caliber 458 Winchester Magnum is more powerful than the 458 Lott and the 458 Lott is pure marketing. What do you think?

    Thank you, :giveusahug:

    Oscar.
     
  16. Ray Atkinson

    Ray Atkinson AH Enthusiast

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    Oscar your friend is nuts. No way no how he can back that statement up..It just isn't in the cards...He needs to buy a chronograph before some interprising gambler calls his bluff..:)

    As to Buffalo at 300 yards..I have on rare ocassions shot them at rather long range the most being about 200 yards or so..One was a big bull that I had been hunting for days on end, and I shot him at that range and he was dead on arrival. I shot another out in a grazed off vuga at 225 yards and that was as close as we could get and I had been walking all day long and was plumb give out, and it was hot.. I took the shot, that was the teapot bull, he just tipped over on his nose dead at the shot with a 416 Rem North Fork soft and never even kicked..My only "instant" kill on a Cape Buffalo. Had a few one shot kills, but that was the first and only instant kill.
     
  17. AFRIVENTURE

    AFRIVENTURE AH Member

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    Guys let me give my 5 cents worth:)

    I own a 458WM AND 458 Lott and have used both extensively on big game.

    I only shoot the WM with Factory loads, mainly Federal Premium and I tell you it is deadly on Buffalo (softs) and Elephant (solids) I love this gun!
    Remember modern ammo is much more superior than 50 years ago.

    So why the Lott? I guess I liked the idea that Cz makes one and bought one 2 years ago.
    I mainly use hand loads in it and only Barnes triple shock for a premium bullet.

    I like these bullets, and in a WM they are too long in 500 grain to get enough powder in the case, but in the Lott they work well and I get about 2200 fps as a upper end load with these bullets.
    With our local powders this is a compressed load because of the long bullet.

    As for recoil, what is that? - I am addicted to it :smoking:
     
  18. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    The response is appreciated, I soon feel the reversal of the 458 Lott, but at the moment I expect. Grrrr.:mad::mad::mad:

    Oscar.
     
  19. enysse

    enysse AH Ambassador

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    Oscar, the 458 Lott is a lot more powerful than the 458 Win Mag. All you have to do is show someone a reloading book. With Ruger and CZ making the 458 Lott popular again, it may became a legend. More and more people are buying that caliber.
     
  20. oscar1975

    oscar1975 AH Veteran

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    It is true that ever more people inclines by this calibre, perhaps the fact that rifles that shoot Lott, cartridge can skyrocket the 458 WM is another of the reasons. I have said in another post that I have my rifle reserved in an armoury of my country. I want to reload my ammunition; but in Spain need to perform a reload course and then obtain an authorization, but I will slowly. I will I keep informed staff.

    A greeting

    Oscar.
     

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