450 Majoor, 460 Short A Square, 450 Vincent Short anyone?

Discussion in '.375 & Up' started by converse320, Oct 27, 2010.

  1. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    I can find little information on the short action fatter 458s online. They seems to offer advantages over the 458 WM, notably sensible pressures and adequate case size and better efficiency, and also fit a short action like the 458 WM. So has anyone ever used one? Or any comments at all? I'm a bit puzzled that the shorter, fatter 458s such as the Majoor, Vincent short and 460 Short A square aren't more popular, given the need for a longer action as in the 458 Lott. So what's wrong with them? Magazine capacity? Difficulty in feeding?

    I'm looking to order a new 458 so I'd be interested in any comments on these. The easy option is to go 458 WM or Lott, but I'm tempted to try one of the above.
  2. Mike70560

    Mike70560 AH Fanatic

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    No comments on the above but there are two more options.

    First is the 458 B&M. It has Win Mag power in a lighter package. Headstamped brass is available or you can make you own from RUM brass. Load development is done and reamers are available. Michael is a good guy and will go overboard to help.


    B & M Rifles and Cartridges - Home


    The 458 AccRel is similar to the above. PM me if you need more info about the AccRel.

    AmmoGuide
  3. monish

    monish AH Elite

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    Converse,

    Have never had any experience with the cartridges you have mentioned , a little write up on the famed .458 Winchester Magnum & the Goliath .460 Weatherby Magnum might be of some help ...

    For hunting African Elephant or Cape Buffalo, few cartridges do a better job than Winchester's biggest cartridge. Since its introduction in 1956, the .458 Magnum has become the most popular big bore cartridge among African professional hunters, not only for game population control work but for keeping clientele out of trouble when mixing it up with dangerous game. A few Alaskan guides and outfitters who specialize in hunting Brown Bear are also quite fond of the .458 for backup use. A number of excellent big game bullets are available for the .458 Magnum. When maximum penetration is needed for elephant, Cape Buffalo, and the like, the Speer, Hornady, Barnes, and A-Square 500 grain solids are good choices. Listed among the better 500 grain softnose bullets are the Speer, the Hornady, the A-Square, and Barnes. For a reduced recoil elk or moose load, try the Hornady350 grain bullet. The .458 Winchester Magnum performs best with relatively fast burning powders such as H335, H4895…..

    The .460 Weatherby Magnum's position in the lineup of rifle cartridges in this load data manual seems most appropriate since it is the last word in power among commercially produced big game cartridges. No other factory loaded cartridge burns so much powder in pushing so much bullet weight so fast. And no other cartridge can match the .460's 8000 foot pounds of muzzle energy. That's the good part. For those who desire to take a one rifle trip to Africa with the .460 Magnum, the flat shooting Hornady350 grain or Barnes400 grain bullets at 2700 to 2800 fps is just the ticket for kuda, sable, zebra, eland, and other non-dangerous game. The Hornady, Barnes, and Speer500 grain solids are the elephant bullets, while the Speer500 grain African Grand Slam and BarnesX-Bullet should be unbeatable for everything else. Despite the size of its case, the .460 Weatherby Magnum has a relatively high expansion ratio. This calls for powders in the medium-slow burning rate range with H4350, H414, IMR-4350, and W-760being excellent choices. IMR-3031, and Reloader 7.

    Monish
  4. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    There are enough comments online about the 458 Win mags lack of case capacity to make me cautious, particularly as I'd automatically go for the heaviest bullet available for any given calibre, and I don't like compressed loads. Call me superstitious but I like to be able to hear the powder moving in the case. So I'm a bit doubtful about the Winchester Magnum, though it has loads of advantages such as availability.

    The 460 Weatherby strikes me as an answer to a complete different problem. I don't need or want the sort of velocities on offer with this calibre, which come with loads of negatives such as big actions and high running costs.

    I just want something that will fit in a standard action and be happy with a 550g bullet at say 2000 fps at low pressures and no compression. Maybe the 458 Winchester can do this reliably, but I'm unsure.

    Thanks for the stuff on the Acc Rel and B+M - I hadn't heard of them so I'll do some research.
  5. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Hi Converse.

    I can certainly relate to your quest for a more portable big game rifle.

    Currently, and for the past 8 years, I have been carrying around a heavy full sized, long barreled 458lott.
    Great performance on buffalo, whenever I need it, but a big price to pay in having to carry a 9lb + weapon every day, for weeks on end.

    I too strongly recommend you look at the B&M range of cartrdiges.
    I have personally seen the 458 B&M, the 500 M.D.M and the 50 B&M in the field performing on our buffalo and can give them the big thumbs up.
    (I am currently waiting on my own 500 M.D.M to be built).

    I understand your preference lays in the 458 caliber, but please do yourself a favour and don't ignore the tremendous package that the 50 B&M can offer.
    A 7 1/2lb rifle with an 18"barrel firing a 50cal, 500gn bullet at 2100 fps is an awesome combination in a very small, lightweight rifle.
    And extremely shootable also.
    The 458 B&M is also a terrific package offering proper 458 ballistics in a very portable, lightweight firearm.


    Let us know how you get on.

    Cheers,
    Paul.
  6. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    I have been reading up on the B&M cartridges mentioned by Mike70560 and PaulT. Very interesting and the rifles being produced for them by SSK Industries are definitely built from the ground up for big bore cartridges. I think the .500 MDM looks like a real thumper.
  7. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    I'm sure these rifles are great, but I'm not really looking for a rifle even lighter than a 458 Win. An 18" barrel 7.5 pounder delivering these velocities may be nice to carry, but I don't think it will encourage me to use it enough at the range to get really comfortable with it. Surely the recoil will be horrific. My 30-06 weighs more than that!

    I'm looking for a compact rifle (not necessarily a particularly light one), capable of say 2000fps with a 550gr bullet out of a 22" barrel. I need dies, headstamped brass and reamer to be readily available too. From what I've managed to find out, the 460 Short A square is looking like the strongest contender, but I'm still digging.
  8. Skyline

    Skyline AH Fanatic

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    converse...............no worries. Wasn't suggesting you get one, just that they look like they are built from the ground up for handling these cartridges. Have fun in your quest.
  9. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Converse,
    your assumption that a lighter rifle will kick more is not entirely correct.
    Weight is not the ONLY contributing factor to recoil.

    The 458 B&M has less felt recoil in a 7 1/2lb rifle than my full sized, 24" barrelled, 9 1/2lb CZ Lott !

    The 50 B&M has maybe slightly less, or equal to, the recoil of full power loads in the same 458 CZ Lott.(and that 50 B&M is 4" shorter and nearly 2lbs lighter than my Cz !!!).

    The 500 M.D.M, in an 8 1/2 lb rifle, is probably not for the uninitiated, but for anyone with exposure to big bore rifles, it is manageable and not difficult to get accustomed to.

    The way these rifles are being put together makes them very shootable.

    I hope to have my own 500 M.D.M (with 20" barrel) for next years hunting season and have a client hunter attending bringing both the 458 and 50 B&M's for another run on our buffalo, testing more bullets.

    As far as compactness (in big bores) is concerned, these rifles are IT !

    Cheers,
    Paul.
  10. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    Yes, mass of the rifle isn't the only factor in felt recoil: Stock geometry, gun fit, recoil pad design, powder mass, barrel length are all involved. Probably some others as well that I've forgotten about. And I agree felt recoil can often surprise you. I've always found the 30-06 fairly benign for example, compared to some other 30 calibres. There is clearly some special magic at work in the 458 B&M.
  11. timothy socha

    timothy socha New Member

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    Hi, I have an older hannibal rifle in 460 short asquare. Very accurate, easy to reload, and it feeds perfect. I have heard that it's very heavy and ugly. I can't really say, i've carried it over my arm while walking for miles in tussocks. i've also carried it with a sling on snowmobile. i've had it on trips, where it cycled fine at -45C. i'm not a hunter, but i have always been a shooter. i just carry if for self-defense in arctic conditions. i have a winchester in 458, and had a brno in 458, and also have a ruger nr. 1 in 458. all are much more difficult to shoot than the asquare. i can handle about 7 rounds at a time. I find the recoil fine, because of the great stock design (some say ugly stock). the recoil causes it to shed the front sight hood. i accidentally overloaded it once using speer grand slam bullets (according to a. alphin) but had no extraction problems or cratered primers. the signature is fantastic. I feel really safe with it. I have a lion load in the chamber, then alternate dead tough with solids. I hope this helps. oh, i have handgun scope mounted forward, but carry it with it off, as I only intend to shoot within 25 yards. the first shots are with a marine flare gun. tim.
  12. kingcorona

    kingcorona AH Member

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    458vs 460

    Talked to a gentleman who went to Africa with a 460 and was advised to download the cartridge due to fear of TOO much penetration and the risk involved to other cape buffalo...bullets do not pass straight thru and can take some pretty radical paths. I own a 458Lott but almost excusively shoot 458 WM ammo thru it.......A-square makes some great round for it...I personally LOVE shooting my 470 Capstick.....this cartridge will fit a 458/375 size action and give you 6000+me with 500 grain bullets at max specs......I download it with soft points to deer level specs......all you need is a new barrell on most magnum actions......basically a 470 NE bolt action..........gotta love that:)
  13. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    I ordered the 458 Lott in the end, just on cartridge availability grounds. I think the 460 Short A square is probably a better round in terms of accuracy, lower recoil and capabilities with heavier bullets. BUT, what happens when your ammunition doesn't arrive with you? At least with the Lott you've a very good chance of getting some locally.
  14. PaulT

    PaulT AH Fanatic

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    Converse, congrats on your new big bore.

    You'll find the 458 Lott a magnificent cartrdige in all respects.

    Easy to load, and by the time you've had enough rounds down the barrel to find out if there's any flaws in the gun you'll be well and truly comfortable with the recoil.

    For game the size of buffalo and up it is truly a magical performer.

    The Hornaday factory loaded softs and solids are great if you don't reload, but if you do reload try get projectiles on the tough side, as a lot of 458 bullets were designed for the Winnie mag and will prove a little soft, especially at close quarters.

    North Fork and Cutting Edge Bullets are supreme thick-skinned animal bullets.

    Good luck with your Lott.
  15. converse320

    converse320 AH Member

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    I've got some Woodleigh 550s I'm going to try, plus have also got the Corbin swaging dies to make some soft practice heads, so watch this space.

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