12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE, 700HE; Big Bores--

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by hubel458, Dec 2, 2011.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of 24ga FH in the Mossberg bolt gun. On a
    Mossy 390 frame, .585" heavy barrel, same as 24ga size.
    Chamber is set up 3" with shotgun style forcing cone,
    so it can use 2.5" plastic cases and 2.5" Magtech brass
    cases with slugs or shot and for 3" cases we use 577NE
    3" brass. Really make a hairy 24ga using the 440gr to
    540 gr Minie bullets at 21-2400. If you take 540 Minie bullet
    mould and leave out base pin you'd have a 650gr that
    would do. All these bullets and slugs as well as jacketed and
    turned 577/585 bullets work in 24ga as well as my 585HE.
    And the smaller Minies work in our 12ga sabots. I keep
    saying 58cal is where it is at, and there are more bullet and
    slug choices in the .585 size, easy to find, than any other
    caliber over 458. And Minies are like 40 cents each and
    cheaper if you cast your own.

    [​IMG]


    Here is picture .585" barrels from McGowen, with other barrels.
    Most of the McGowens profiled and some straight blanks.
    Others we have are the slow twist and smooth blanks...
    In back some of the cases and die sets.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of an Enfield and a BBK in Hogue recoil
    reducing stocks. These stocks are the rubber coated ones with
    the easy to grip, nice pistol grip.Has McGowen 26 inch barrels,
    1 to 20 twist, barrels are heavy profile and taper
    to .980 inch at the muzzle. Guys are doing more Enfields
    and other actions through the winter. Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  2. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Some guys in 12ga like to use the Magtech brass cases
    but the cases being brass the sides are thinner than
    plastic, and that makes loose fit in 12ga chambers.
    And cases expand a lot with heavier loaded slug
    loads, are harder to resize, wear out quicker.
    But I found that .750 hollowbase 10ga slug fits
    those cases and still chambers in regular 12ga.
    chamber, it isnt a sloppy fit.

    So If you have a 12ga smooth barrel with full length
    backbore job, of .850" bore or bigger you could use
    the Magtech brass and .850" size 10ga hollowbase slugs.
    Now these .850" slugs won't go in a 12ga plastic case
    and chamber in regular 12ga chamber.And you do not
    fire them through 12ga regular size barrel.

    Brett in MN used the a BPI AQ slugs in his full length
    backbored 12ga and got fair accuracy as he said the wads
    under slugs expanded a lot for a decent fit.
    The 10ga slug shown in the 2.5 inch Magtech is 800 gr,
    and .850" diameter. These cases will take magnum
    pressure so you can get good speed, for what this short
    case can hold.

    It is too bad they don't make 3" and 3.5" versions.
    These 2.5" cases are easier to find and much less than
    others, so if needing brass ones you can rig up guns
    to work with them. To build a new barreled gun in actual
    12ga size, IE .729" bore, you'd make chamber to
    minimum specs so cases don't over expand.
    In the picture are 2 10ga slugs on right, like in the case,
    and 2 12ga jacketed slugs and one 12ga lead slug left.ED


    [​IMG]



    Here is the ytube URL again for our guy
    shooting 585HE in his NEF----By mid summer we plan on a
    pickup truck load of more 585HE cases coming in.

     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 28, 2014
  3. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is good simple system with big hollowbase slugs to stop
    the skirts from deforming, I found that dense dow foam works
    good, I was using glue gun but dow foam is easier, Just cut
    plugs out of foam sheet and force into the base. Make a tight
    fit, use spot of glue inside, glue that is for foam....
    Trim off the foam flush..In picture is 10 ga 900gr slug.

    [​IMG]

    How we get good 24ga plastic seals with protusion on
    top that fits up inside 58cal Minie base, same bore as 24ga
    and our 585HE. I get the 24ga seal by cutting apart the BPI
    24ga Brush wad, getting two seals out of each.Works great
    in plastic case giving a shorter column than other seals and
    wads, so we can get in enough of our 4759 for good speed.
    The 24ga idea is getting nicer all the time with
    the variety of cheap 58cal slugs, and good 3" brass cases,
    drawn cases, we didn't have to wait to get made.
    And all kind of guns we can use, bolt 395 Mossbergs, single
    shots of all kinds, Autos,, pumps. bolt action Savage,
    even 1887 Win and Greener MKIII, bolt action JC Higgins. .

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture Khan auto we setting up 24ga FH, it is 3.5"
    model, has a 12ga barrel to change with. Being 3.5" it
    feeds/ejects through lengthened port 3" brass 24ga cases we
    made from 577NE brass. We rework back of the bolt for
    slightly longer stroke.Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  4. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of 24ga cases, loads; and some slugs and seals.
    Brass cases are 3", plastic cases are 2.5". Brass 3" can be loaded
    to match 577NE power.

    View attachment 24galoads.jpg

    Here is of 24ga in an 87 Win, just test gun of mine. Uses same barrels
    as our 585HE, This one has slow twist for Minie bullets.Our guys
    have got supply of regular and slow twist barrels.

    View attachment 87-24ga.jpg

    Here is picture of the first 585HE done and shooting in Australia.
    It is owned by the poster, 'tankhunter' on the AR forums.
    Built by his smith who has a reamer.
    Guys there can get cases from Bertram, and there will soon be three
    reamers there. There is a company there now making 585 barrels,
    Allan and Grant Swan. in Redbank, Queensland.....Ed

    View attachment tankhunter.jpg

    PS---WE need guys in SA to get a barrel of 585HE cases(group buy maybe) from Bertram and see who can be the first there with a gun done
    and shooting. Does SA have reamer builder
    who isn't stacked up with work for years.
     

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  5. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Finally got back to forums.Been busy with 24ga FH and 585HE
    and getting 585HE cases made, as many as possible...
    We are now working a bit with 24ga FH and here is picture
    of it with our 585HE case. Both use same bullets/slugs, same
    bore barrels. Main use difference, 24ga FH easy setup in break
    actions and 585HE in bolt actions and falling blocks.
    [​IMG]
    Picture of non-discarding 585/24ga sabot cup I found that holds
    458 bullets and slugs tight. It had hammerhead type slug in it that
    was pulled out, wouldn't stay in tight after pulled. Sabot was a loose fit
    in 20ga, though made for 20ga, but small, so I shrunk the bottom rib,
    fits perfect, super tight, in 24ga and 585HE. A press in fit gives
    good resistance for good ignition.
    [​IMG]
    Here is another 24ga/585 sabot that holds .452" 45cal pistol
    bullets. Made by Hornady for 58cal Muzzle loaders..
    With 250 gr bullet in 585HE hot load will go about mach 4.
    [​IMG]
    Here is easy way to weight plastic stocks with hollow butts, use rubber
    coated computer mouse balls, weight comes out perfect without being
    too heavy if using that much lead.And coating keeps them quiet, and
    we hold them in with piece dense foam under butt pad....Ed
    [​IMG]
     
     
     

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  6. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    First AUS buffalo killed by 585HE. By Tankhunter with his Ruger #1.
    If you use closeup on picture, you see loaded round on the buffs hide
    next to the 585HE Ruger #1.... A nice heavy barreled gun..Ed
    [​IMG]
     
    I put the 585 in a Savage 112, lots of room lengthwise, figuring out an
    extractor is a problem, but then got a look at the savage 212, the 12 ga
    one with big diameter bolt and locking lugs. Its locking lugs are bigger
    than the lugs in a big PH bolt action. So one day will do one
    on a Savage 212, and adjusting extractor to fit no problem...Ed
    [​IMG]
     

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  7. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of 585HE 100 cases loaded, CEB solid nose bullets
    and hollowpoints. This bullet is a turned solid with wide meplat
    or wide hollowpoint. .

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of triball loads that fellows like for deer and hogs,
    and just general tear em up fun, with using BPGS seal to improve
    sealing under what are heavier loads. The balls are .600" and
    315gr. each. The wadcup is a TUPRW123 that Precision sells.

    [​IMG]

    I need a bunch of empty 3.5" 20ga plastic cases.


    Our 585 caliber is modern bolt action continuance of the 577 Nitro
    Express rimmed case, that many big game hunters like, usually
    set up in double rifles. It has an interesting history, from the old 24ga
    size to 577NE, to 585 Nyati with G&A picture of Ross Seyfreid
    shooting one in a Ruger #1 under recoil knocking his shooting glasses
    off, to the Trex of internet fame knocking guys over with recoil,
    to our 585HE the strongest yet.

    The 577NE is an offshoot of 24 gauge caliber paper cases, only they went
    eventially to brass cases. Back in the 1860-70s, starting first with short
    cases and black powder, cases built like shotgun cases, called the
    577 Snider, then going to coiled brass cases, still with black powder,
    then on to drawn brass cases, called 577 BP Express. then to 3"
    and other longer cases with smokeless. The Snider started out with a bullet
    of .570" diameter and through the progression to the 577NE bullet
    diameter ended up at .585". This general bore diameter of cartridge guns
    and muzzle loaders, it is really interesting on how they developed
    and were used by military and then hunters over the years. The Snider
    was necked down to make the 577-450 , a military round used all
    over the British Empire, by the tens of millions.

    Bases of both 24ga and 577NE are about the same. Now we have made a
    24ga FH, a slight regression to earlier times, by taking 577NE brass, and
    reducing rim diameter to 24ga specs. Two minute job. And
    stamp the caseheads 24 ga.

    For shotgun upgrading in power and range, It is all about increasing
    the power in easy to find brass cases, stronger actions, and finding
    reasonable price rifled barrels. Same barrels we found for 585, work for 24ga.
    The 577NE brass we make 24ga drawn cases from, for example are
    about a third the cost of 600NE brass, or getting turned 24ga cases made.
    We could use 24ga thin cases but they are a pain, expand way too much,
    with slug loads which makes resizing without crumpling cases a problem.

    Info about the power in types of guns normally set up with 24ga FH,
    break actions, bolt shotguns,etc. In thin brass 24ga case, 440gr slug
    goes 1500, with about 2000 ft lbs, that's in a 2.5" Magtech brass case.
    Now using the better, heavier 3" brass we got, we can increase speed
    to 1750 fps increasing energy 50%, going to 2000 fps about doubles
    energy. And going to 2300 which good brass holds ok, in heavy barrel
    gun, gets us near 2 1/2 times the energy. About 37-40,000 psi which the
    actions hold in this smaller diameter case, compared to 12 gauge size.
    So makes relatively smaller bore shotgun, 24ga, with 458WIN power.
    .Perfect with Minie bullets. Perfect for deer and hogs, bear, etc.

    Great for slug hunting in shotgun only areas. We mark barrels 24ga
    and cases 24. A decent case that is complimentary to our 585HE....Ed
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 26, 2014
  8. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Guys asking about using 585 CEB bullet in our 12ga super
    sabot. Here is picture, We just took off the bottom band and couple
    middle bands on the CEB and it fit perfect in our 12ga sabot,
    which uses .575" slugs. Hollowpoint one pictured 700gr in the
    sabot loaded in brass case. Can be used in plastic case with a
    special made hollowed out long roll crimper.
    [​IMG]
    Getting some more interest in our 585HE.
    An application for our 585 HE is for guys with old military 14.5mm
    PTRDs, to use our case with chamber insert. In many places 14.5
    cases are scarce, real expensive, as well as most 14.5mm cases
    being steel are not the easiest to resize/reload. Our case sizes
    like regular cases and can be easily reloaded many times.
    And a PTRD with almost a 5 foot long barrel could get 650gr
    spitzer bullet to about same speed the 14.5mm gets a 900 gr using
    3 times as much powder. About 3300 fps. Or get a 900gr at 2800.
    Great possibilities for fun shooting. For tactical use in a place
    where it would be useful to reload in the operations field, where
    steel cases are scarce. 100 of our cases do over 2000 reloads.
    [​IMG]
    I like Enfields to put our 585HEs in, for reasonable cost guns, the
    actions once sporterized are one of the longest for long cases. .
    Here is inexpensive way to fancy up the Enfield Bolt handle by
    cutting the dogleg part of the old handle off and welding on
    inexpensive contoured handles I found, one of which is like
    Ruger 77 handle, the one on the right . Something even a novice
    like me can do.....
    [​IMG]
    A lot of guys are crazy about CEB bullets. Here are light 450gr
    ones in our 24ga FH. That hollowpoint can range in weight 450gr
    to 700gr depending on how much we cut off the back..
    The 24ga FH brass case is nice complement to our 585HE,
    for shotgun only deer hunters that want a .585" caliber,
    and easy to find big bore bullets.... Ed
    [​IMG]
     
     
     

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  9. Brian

    Brian AH Senior Member

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    I have read about your work on Ammo Guide and elsewhere. This wonderful arctile/paper and thread represents a huge amount of work/research. I am really interested. When I get it read and obsorbed I will probably make up a "12 ga. from Hell" for a cape buffalo hunt. Thank you so much for gathering it all together here in one place. Good Job hubel.
    AH is a real lightening rod for great esoteric info. Brian
    PS. I don't konw if I am man enough to shoot 12 ga. from hell. May have to get the wife to test fire it. B
     
  10. Brian

    Brian AH Senior Member

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    Ed and all AH friends please help,
    This is really interesting! I would like to make up a 12FH type of rifle or smooth bore for cape buff. Can you imagine the PH's face when I pull out Grampa's single shot duck gun for the moment of truth with a Cape Buff ?! Or the Camo Bennelli?

    Is the Dumb Question Department closed for the hollidays? I just have to ask a few:

    1. Do you know if that .620 CEB bullet would work in any of the 20ga. rifled barreled slug guns. I'm thinking of the NEF Ultra Slug rifle. Also, Would the NEF 1:28 twist be fast enough to stabilize that long 620 bullet and at what velocity? (I guess that I should ask CEB about that.)

    2. I have a 10 ga BPS but have not been able to find a rifled barrel for it. Any suggestions? (It's not a very nible DG gun)

    3. Has anyone in AH, killed a Cape Buffalo with a 10, 12 or 20 ga. bullet/slug? Good penitration? effective?

    Thanks, in advance, for your help. Brian
     
  11. Brian

    Brian AH Senior Member

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    Hello again Ed, With the help of your information, I have narrowed my plan down for a NEF project.

    Can you or someone help get started in the right direction with the following:
    1. I wish to build a NEF rifled barrelled big bore. The .585HE type appeals to me but I would rather find a straight walled, minimum tapered, cartridge using the Cutting Edge Bullets in .550 or .50
    2. I would like the velocity with the heavier bullets to be about 2000 fps.

    Questions:
    1. Do you know who can make the barrel (s) in the USA or Canada?
    2. Do you have any suggestions for a good case for the .550 or .500 cal bullet? ( Not the 500S&W as I already have one. I am looking for mo' power.)

    Some sources say that the NEF frame will stretch like a chocolate tea pot with anything more than small minimum tapered cases like the .307 or .444. Others say it is a non issue. Hopefully some one will pat me on the head and tell me not to worry about NEF/Handi rifle frame stretching.
    Any advice at all will be greatly appreciated. Brian
     
  12. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Our 585HE is straightwalled and I have monoblocked
    it in a NEF SB2 10ga frame. The guy in TX with video
    on youtube has one in video. 760gr 2100 ok
    650gr at 23-2400 ok. Barrels in good supply, 25 here,
    cases in large supply, dies good supply, all much better
    priced than any other stuff for big bore rifle.
    I can set you up one, got barrels of cases,

    IN NEF you can get a 24ga from hell which is
    same bore, same bullets, same barrels, just a rimmed case, just a little slower, and got lots of that brass also.

    Safety informatio------
    For 20 gauges with .615" barrel we can't use the .620"
    CEB or any solid. Or any oversize jacketed.

    To make 12ga FH just get a NEF 12 rifled ultra, and
    ream chamber to 3.5" which any smith can do,
    we can do, get 3.5" BRASS CASES from RMC,
    as well load strong loads we developed in 3.5"
    plastic cases. That NEF with bull barrel has good
    power even with plastic loads, ED
     
  13. Brian

    Brian AH Senior Member

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    Thanks for the quick and complete reply, Ed.

    I am mulling it over and will get back to you. Sounds like the 585HE is as good as it gets for conventional big bore power. I guess if I keep the chamber and cases dry, the straight wall case will reduce the effects of case head thrust and the stretching that people talk about. right?
    Please tell me how much the finished NEF rifle will weight and the length of your barrels. I like 'em heavy. I have weighted my 375 Win70 and 458Lott to about 12 lbs.

    I will also review your 12 ga.FH info again. What is your email address for prices and ordering.

    Thanks again for the information. You have done a lot of work on this project. Brian
     
  14. Brian

    Brian AH Senior Member

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    Hi again Ed, I am slowly getting your info sorted out in my mind. ( Instead of reading it thoroughly, front to back and making notes, I got excited and started in the middle and read both ways.

    I like the 24 ga.FH in a NEF. I will use my own frame that has a 500 S&W barrel on it now, right? I would like to get the cost of getting going in 24 ga. FH. Please tell me where to get your contact info. Brian
     
  15. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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  16. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    For lightweight plinking, deer hunting, etc, in 585HE as well as 24ga FH
    here is picture of 58cal Hornady sabot that holds .451/.452" light
    bullets 225 to 300 gr. A way to shoot targets economically. Low recoil
    but a big bang and satisfaction. A 250 gr bullet would go about
    mach 4 with a top load..
    [​IMG]
    Here is what 585 bull barrel, target blank looks like, 1 5/8" OD and 32" long.
    It'll go in heavy action of some kind. 4th one from the left. The one in yellow
    sleave on top, is a heavy contoured one with muzzle of .980". we got a
    bunch of them and so does McGowen.
    [​IMG]
     
    Here is picture, nice cast bullet I like for the 585HE and 24ga FH.
    It is .585" diameter and 650 gr and these particular ones are a
    hard lead alloy, plus they've been heatreated. They are about as
    hard as copper jacketed softs pivtured. These in .575'' size would
    work in our 12ga sabot..
    [​IMG]
    But to penetrate good and do great damage to game or target they
    can be fairly soft lead and hollowbase like Minie Bullets. Here is picture
    of timber drilled through with .585 soft lead Minie from 585HE.
    Picture is the back of 6x6 timbers where Minie bullets came out.
    [​IMG]
    Guys experimenting with multiple ball loads in 12ga wadcups, here is a
    way to keep them together group wise.Ed
     
    [​IMG]
     

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  17. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of our NEF 12ga FH with Hogue Compstock. It has the
    recoiling cam and springs in the hollow butt plus some weght,

    [​IMG]

    Here is a variety of slugs and bullets that fit in the 12ga dangerous
    game slug, lock on sabot. BPI sells that DG slug.

    .[​IMG]

    There is couple 585 videos on Swann Gunsmithing's Facebook site;
    Of our 585HE in first Ruger #1, that was done in Australia.It was set up
    for the poster Tankhunter on the AR big bore forums. That gun killed the
    first AUS buff, killed by a 585HE, that I posted picture of above. You can
    go direct to the page and click on the videos to watch the test firings..

    https://www.facebook.com/swanbarrels/videos

    Here is picture our 585HE in a Montana PH action in a MPI stock, with the
    style of a CZ stock and metal will be finished with a Gun Kote finish.


    [​IMG]


    Here is picture of a 585HE we did in a Mauser 98 as a
    singleshot test gun. We used a composite stock we
    adapted to fit action. Weighted to 12 lbs.
    Enfield in back, you can see it is longer.

    [​IMG]

    And speaking of singleshots a fellow in the Yukon is
    just finishing up one in a Ruger #1.And the 24hr Campfire
    forum has over a million views of this thread, ..ED
     

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  18. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    The 12ga FH isn't the first wildcat case built on BMG brass, it was preceded by
    target rounds like the necked down 338 Talbot, the cut off 700 DKT for big game,
    necked down to .416 and . 458, and more, but the following one was way
    before them, in my favorite rifle caliber, for .585" bullets.

    One of first modern era 585 caliber wildcats, since WW2, the 575 Miller-Greiss Magnum,
    was first mentioned in the fifties, It was made from BMG brass shortened to 2.70" long
    and necked up from 50 cal to .585". But actually if cut off first, it would be annealed, necked
    down to hold 585 bullet. Fairly sharp shoulder.

    They rebated the rim quite a ways down to .618" to maybe fit 98 Mauser bolt.
    Maybe used a special hogged out, reworked action. Listed as
    shooting 750gr bullet about 2400 fps. It holds about 150gr of ball powder under
    a 750 gr bullet, maybe little less than 3" 50cal spotter case, where our 585HE holds
    180gr under a 750gr'.

    We made one for experimenting on a full length BMG case.With rim left same as the base
    and would need a BMG or PH sized bolt and action. I'm glad to be a big bore wildcatter,
    and happy to be in the company of big bore nuts, old and new. Years ago when guys did
    big wildcats on BMGs, they took what was available, full length BMGs to rework, and but
    maybe back then they could have used the 3" BMG spotter case, by shortening the neck,
    if they could have found couple barrels full.

    But it takes a lot of work to reform and shorten cases that much like M&G, with the multiple dies,
    multiple annealings, and case trimming and extreme reworking of regular rifle actions,
    which is why I like our 585 case, simple and straight, any regular, long bolt action, or
    falling blocks, break actions, etc, a 585 good for dozen or more heavy loadings,
    and moderate loads, last forever..

    For our 585HE , made it a size, actually new belted size, to fit regular size, long bolt guns,
    (not BMG actions)that didn't have to be used from tripod so to speak, and could be put in a favorite
    gun of many, the Ruger #1, other falling blocks, without taking metal out of the feed trough.
    To get the same and/or more powder space as a cut back, really shortened, BMG case, like M&G,
    wildcatted to 585, or other short cases, we made longer case and worked with guys
    with a group buy, to get a factory run made. A miracle. We thank all gun nuts for the help.

    Here is picture from the great site, cartridgecollector dot net, of the M&G Mag .Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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