12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE, 700HE; Big Bores--

Discussion in 'Double Rifles' started by hubel458, Dec 2, 2011.

  1. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    First is picture of the 8ga Falling Block with texturized paint finish
    on the stock. It enhances the grip quite a bit on hard recoil guns.

    [​IMG]

    Second is the Greener that I have my 585 HE in.Also have
    12ga barrel for it..

    [​IMG]

    Third is Magtech singleshot action that I'm experimenting
    with putting on a thumbhole stock.

    [​IMG]

    Fourth are the long bmg bulleted blank cases that I found, to use to
    make my 700HE Long case, 4.27" long. I have few extra sets of
    five in links like shown, extra to sell 5 at a time in links,
    if some need them for their collections, etc... Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  2. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    In our research to find economical and easy to use setups to load
    various slug/sabot combos in 12, 20 and other gauges, you've
    seen what we are doing with 58cal slugs in 12ga accutip type sabot we
    are getting built, and 58cal slugs in 20ga BPI Commander shotwad.
    You've seen pics of group shot by Ajay 58cal in 20ga Commander wad.
    And Greg Sappington made 16ga HP slug that fit 12ga BPI CSD wad.
    CSD wads are little thicker. In that vein we found another 20 ga combo
    that uses the BPI 20ga CSD wads and larger diameter of the 54cal
    muzzleloading slugs. Wad is thick and short so we can get the
    volumne of our slow powder we want in the loads for higher speeds.
    And base of CSD 20ga wad is thicker and stronger than most wads.
    . It doesn't have built on cushion, doesn't need cushion, which is not
    needed for slow powder loads. Has a good built on powder seal.
    It is long so it can be cut to fit any 54cal slug length.
    Best 54cal slugs to use are .543" and up.
    There is .548" Sharps style 2nd in picture from Dixie Gunworks.There is
    54cal Great Plains in picture on left, Far right in picture is 550 Magnum
    jacketed bullets in 20ga CSD. Great for hogs, bear. There are a variety
    of 54cal slugs you can cast or buy. Not big number like 58cal, but enough
    to find good simple combo. Shot 3" group with 54cal Great Plains in
    CSD at 30 yds, smooth bore. 380gr going over 2000 fps.
    Second picture shows they even work and fit good in 20ga RMC brass.
    Fits in a brass case real tight with .548" Sharps style slug in picture..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Third picture shows how we mono-block 585HE barrels into strong
    singleshot break actions. Done it in NEFs, CBCs, Pedretti, Beretta,
    and the Magtech 199 shown above.

    [​IMG]

    Fourth picture is the O/U Tristar with 585HE on top and 3.5" 12ga bottom.
    We sleeved the top barrel with .585" ID sleeve. We will use it with
    the 58cal .585" Minie hollowbase slugs. Bottom just for shot loads
    with a interchangeable chokes. Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  3. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Little work on non-discarding 12ga sabots,You can get SPW
    wads without slugs in them and we set up one for a light load.
    We put a 20ga Lyman in some and they stay together ok. Just
    shorten the bottom skirt of Lyman and bevel the bottom corner.
    Total weight sabot and all is 360gr,,Shown In the picture..
    We also shrunk the skirt of the 12ga Lyman cast slug and put it
    in 12ga SPW wads and total about 550gr. If you have Lyman
    12ga mold, can use it as pattern to make a slug to go into a
    SPW wad. Leave the top part same as original Lyman and make
    bottom so it fits in the SPW with real tight fit.

    [​IMG]

    I like to use P14/M17 Enfields for our testing. Great for my 585HE
    case and in picture it shows how we change the sear spring to one
    on the back of the sear. So we can open up the bottom to feed
    the long cases from singlestack magazine box by removing the
    unneeded front of the sear and metal above it in the bottom, giving
    room to the back, for cases that are 3.9" plus overall loaded length.

    [​IMG]

    Couple guys who are setting up 585HEs in singleshots are going
    to shoot 58cal Minies and other bullets and use black powder
    and/or substitutes. So I tested some with Pyrodex pellets,
    Used 54cal, 60gr equivalent and they stack in the case ok,
    and just beveled corner of bottom one so it set tight to the base.
    As the case has good inside radius. Used 3 pellets with 24ga
    card over pellets, 3/8" felt wad and another card with 440gr Minie.
    There is a certain nostalgia about all that sulfur smell.If you can
    stand the cleaning. Slug going 2100.. 4 pellets about 2400.

    Here is picture of another long bullet in sabot/wad , in 12ga that
    was sent to me. Ajay on Shotgun World put these together.

    [​IMG]

    Did some testing, 12ga plastic & brass with new super slow RE-33 powder.
    It fires off ok in 12ga with 700gr and heavier slugs, with shotgun primers
    like RE-17 which is much slower than shotgun powders. .
    It is made the same way as RE-17 as far as how the rate of burn
    deterrent is put into the powder. Which is why it ignites in large diameter
    cases like 12ga and BMG with shotgun primers. Really be great for super
    heavy 1100 to 1500 grain slugs to get good speed and keep case damaging
    peak pressures down. Example in 3.5" Fiocchi 12ga plastic case, 690gr slug in
    BPI Helix Driver Wad with 180 gr RE-33 the basecup only expanded .002".
    And they are thinner basecup than some..Ed
     

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  4. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Last picture above shows what can be with sabots. It was thought to
    be 20ga size when we got picture, but it is a smaller
    45cal caliber sabot with 30cal streamlined bullets in them.
    This was set up by the poster 'edge' on Castbullets forum.

    More info on the SPW sabots with 520 gr Lyman reworked and locked into
    them. With 3.5" brass RMC in the NEF long barrel gun, going about 2500
    they smash though 6" timber with Lyman tearing wood up. Also got the same
    combo 2200 in 3.5" plastic. Lyman in sabot on the left in picture on
    right is factory SPW.

    [​IMG]

    Another setup using the largest diameter 58 Minie I have is this .590" in this
    12ga real thick muzzleloading wadcup for steel shot. I chamferred the bottom of
    Minie slug and wedged it in the cup. The cup comes real long and we cut it off.
    That leaves perfect edge to roll crimp against. Dab of epoxy holds the Minie slug
    in, so it works like a non-discarding sabot. This wad has is own seal and fairly
    short compared to others, so it leaves room for more of our slower powders.
    Shorter slug and wad setups make loading easier.



    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of the Magtech we redid in the 585HE by mono-blocking in 585
    barrel. This is second one we've done. Tried out a ladder peep sight on the
    back. Makes a neat gun.That underlever is a great touch.Ed


    [​IMG]

    As part of the 585 test guns have smooth barrels, they are like a hopped up
    24ga. We got couple bags of 24ga cards and felt wads. Easy way to use
    reduced loads as the wads are perfect in 585 case. For comparison top load
    say with RE17 and 650gr bullet is 170gr, but you can put in 100gr and card
    and couple wads and have real easy load. And you don't have to worry about
    airspace. Great for reduced loads with Minie slugs. In the same vein you
    can put in a card over the powder and about 3/4 oz of shot and have a real
    speedy 24ga shot load equivalent. Put card over the shot and glue it in.Ed
     

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  5. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    First picture is of a nice finished 87 Winchester Will Sanders got set up
    and he is using short brass cases.Beautiful scroll work on the stock.

    [​IMG]

    Next is takeoff of a slug idea from Longbow on Cast Boolits, 12ga lead
    roundball with section copper tube, wads compressed inside, BPGS seal on
    bottom, screwed together. I have many boxes of wads. Now he did his with
    screw into ball, put tube on with screw centered inside tube and filled tube
    with hot glue. It stays together. Both are nose heavy for smooth bore work.

    [​IMG]

    Next is side sectioned view, one of our 585HE cases, showing how 3/4
    ounce of shot fits in.. 585 is same bore as 24ga. Cards shown are 24ga.
    Just glue top card in. Some of our 585s are smoothbore and the HB Minie
    slugs work at short range and the shot will do at short range also going
    about 2000 fps. Could use 24ga shotcup.

    [​IMG]

    Next, Mossy 390 bolt action, with heavy 585 barrel. Makes a nice big bore gun,
    and handles nice with texturized stock finish. About same strength as
    the heavy break actions I have 585HE in.Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  6. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of the 12ga short brass RMC cases being used in
    the 1887 WIN shown above. They are 2 5/8" long cases and we
    get 600gr over 1900. He had work done on action to get it to feed
    these and 3" roll crimped plastic. Brass loaded about same length
    as 3' plastic crimped little long.

    [​IMG]

    Next pic are Lyman slugs cast for thin 12ga wad, used in thickwall
    10ga VP100 wads. These Lymans I got are on large size and fit
    VP100 fairly well. Makes easy, lighter, superfast load in 10ga.

    [​IMG]

    Next; further idea with Longbow's tube/roundball slug shown above.
    Use tube hot glued to ball with screw in the back and use it in
    a 10ga VP100 wadcup. These type slugs little more accurate used
    in wads as opposed to fullbore.

    [​IMG]

    Next shows picture of a long 585 bullets, about 1600gr in our 585HE
    cases. Got the idea from Bret In Minn that could setup 585HE
    guns with super long throat and load down to subsonic speeds to
    make the 585HE Whisper.....And regular bullet loads would still fire
    in the same guns......And at subsonic 1050fps it would have about
    4000 ft lbs, about twice what the peashooter whisper cases have.
    And my case could get a 2400 gr long bullet to same subsonic speed
    for 6000 ft lbs. And one that long would have proportions like the
    newer tank cannon, smooth barrel saboted darts, that it could be
    possibly be done, using long 2400gr in smooth barrel.
    Neat ideas from guys interested in whisper type loads.

    [​IMG]

    Last is picture of FBW in our 585HE with handgrip stock and light
    barrel for lightweight carrying. Grip is weighted, gun is 6lbs.
    Barrel is 28". I'm not a fan of light barrels. 650gr at 2500 is max of
    what I can hold onto shooting from the hip Moderate load
    .Little info about my 585 loads, like in the break actions and the
    Mossy in post above. I load about 85% max velocities, but to get
    85% we only need 2/3 the peak pressure, like 40,000 psi
    instead of 65,000...Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  7. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    We have a winner it seems. The 12ga sabots using 58cal slugs.

    [​IMG]

    The sample 12ga sabots got here earlier this week. And we got a bunch
    of testing already for opening and sealing, and some accuracy testing .440gr
    Minie bullet, measuring .575"; with OD of sabot with slug in it of .737" It is
    perfect. Going moderate 1800. Petals opened perfect and evenly and they all
    stayed on perfect. No petals twisted or torn. Tested in 3" case with slower
    powder loads. 80gr of 4759 and 50gr Alliant Steel. Fiocchi case.
    Savage 210 rifled barrel, 1 to 35 twist. Cases with slower powders expanded
    only a little, and those cases are soft ones.
    We have big bunch of the sabots here now.


    [​IMG]

    All petals were opened at about 30 deg to the base when picked up.
    With ither powder the bases have no damage, or burn throughs or melting.
    Took rifling perfect, so skidding on the rifling. Most of the rifling grip is on the
    bottom half of sabot, which is why these and Accutips are best as the bottom
    is full size instead of dropping back in size, compared to the top, like many
    other sabots. Rifling in the barrel still clean..

    [​IMG]

    The Minies are hollow based and the slug edges did not cut into the inside of the
    sabot bases,just a slight impression. We have got good base thickness.
    Good Accuracy - In the cold and very windy day, hit milk jugs at 30 yds.
    Here is picture inside sabot showing just a slight indent. No need of cards under
    slugs, and if you did, the the slugs would set up in sabot and not have the
    curve of the slug behind the inside circular rib for best fit...

    You got to use right powders. With right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
    that start easier and used in larger amounts, you won't tear up the sabots.
    It is false economy to use all fast shotgun powders,trying to get twice as many
    shots per pound... and tear up sabots, expand cases too much, get poor groups,
    miss that deer or whatever. For most of you in 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.

    Get with me for sabots -- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included, or $20 for 50 postage included,
    with a bonus WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  8. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of a bunch of the sabots with different slugs and bullets.
    Back Row- Two roundball load, balls 285gr each-- pointed long 700 gr -- a blunt
    solid 700gr-- tungsten slug 1000gr --- jacketed bullet -- 600gr.
    2nd row-611 Lyman 530gr Minie- 500gr flat base- Lee 500gr hard--Lee 500gr soft
    1st Row- Lyman 440gr old style minie-- Lyman 510 gr new style-- 440gr from Dixie
    Gunworks-- 400gr Lee target style. I like 440gr old style and 440 gr Dixie. For sale
    on Gunbroker is all sizes and weights.. Or cast your own. Lots of moulds around.
    Lee moulds only 20 bucks. Best diameters to use are .574 " to .577" Minies.
    If you have ones bigger and they are not hardened you can roll them betweem two
    hard surfaces and they will get little smaller. I have some that are .585" 440gr
    and work in my 585HE and they can be rolled smaller.

    [​IMG]

    Here are sabots with variety of seals/wads, and the shortest one in picture with
    white felt wad just fits in 3" case with 80gr 4759, and still leaves room to roll crimp.
    I compress it in hard. Now only faster powder than 4759 I'd use is Alliant Steel in
    smaller amounts, 50gr Steel, in 3", and thicker wads and cushions like shown.
    To roll crimp over the top edge of sabot we had .220" of case before crimping.
    You only have to crimp top edge of sabot real good.


    [​IMG]

    After crimping the slugs are tight and don't move around. The circular rib inside the
    sabot holds slugs tight back into the base. Speeds over 2000 fps
    will be gotten using 3.5" plastic cases, with our slower powder loads. .
    More testing for accuracy yesterday, a warmer, calmer day, with steel sights.
    Hit. paper plate at 50 yds.

    As said above, best to use right powders. Right slower powders( not fast shotgun),
    that get to peak pressure slower, thus can use larger amounts, can get to higher
    velocities, and you won't tear up the sabots and won't expand cases as much.

    For most of you in 2.75" and 3" cases Alliant Steel is best.
    FOR 440GR SLUGS IN SABOT---For 2.75" start at 40gr and go up to about 50.
    For 3" start at 45gr go up to about 55. I like 3.5" best as you can load much easier
    for speed, still have more cushion wads. Start with 50gr Steel, go up to about 62.
    Case brands act different, but using the slower powders minimizes the differences
    and keeps us away from surprizing pressure problems.

    In 3" plastic,most 4759 I can get in and still have 1/4"cushion is 80gr.... In the 3.5"
    I can get in 105 gr with this sabot and get over 2000 fps, In these loads if using
    480-500gr cut back 3 gr. These 58cal slugs can be cast or they are at Dixie Gunworks
    and 4 guys on Gunbroker got them. Get ones .574" to .577"


    Interested in sabots--- gunowner at journey.com Ph- 1-989-644-5228
    THE undersize blue ones sold elsewhere for 34 bucks a hundred plus postage.
    Ours are 33 bucks per 100 postage included.
    Or $20 for 50 postage included..
    .Or 150 for $45 postage included----- ALL with a bonus
    WE WILL send along 10 slugs with 100 order, 5 with 50 order. 15 with 150 order.
    to show you what to get and to test with. Slugs can be 440gr or 500gr..
    We want you to help test and find what is best....Ed
     

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  9. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of 45-50yd target, used a scoped NEF Ultra, the sabot load of a 440gr
    58cal slug in it at 1800... Measures 2.5" on outside for 3 shots.

    [​IMG]

    Here is pic of almost 2100 of them. More coming. Time to
    get them and get loads working.

    [​IMG]

    And A little funnin humor for us big bore nuts..Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  10. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Some more info about our sabots and various slug weights......
    First and most important is our sabots fitting real tight like the Accutip
    Sabots, they will not get the same speed at the same pressures as
    the undersize grey and blue ones, But they do leave the barrel
    headed straighter and without damage, even with hollowbase 58cal
    slugs in them as the pics above show. No cards under slugs in sabots.,
    But with good powder seals, using Alliant Steel, and good 1/4" minimum
    cushion wads.

    The 440gr Minie slug of .575" in the 3" cases is the one I used as a
    base loading, to work each way by weight to find what loads of
    Alliant Steel work and extract in my NEF. Using 3" soft base cases.
    Here is pic of before/after of Fiocchi cases, on right unfired and left
    fired, 55gr Steel with 440 gr slug.

    [​IMG]

    For 440gr max of 55gr Steel
    For 400gr max of 57gr Steel
    For 360gr max of 59gr Steel

    For 490gr max of 52gr Steel.
    For 510gr max of 49gr Steel
    For 540gr max of 47gr Steel.

    I tested all these weights for extraction. It is real nice to reach into a
    bucket, grap a sabot that fits right, and go to loading and shooting.
    Many of you need to get in on the fun.
    Here is picture of Fiocchi with sabot, roll crimped. The top of sabot is
    perfect for roll crimping...It is setting under crimp tool in drill press.

    [​IMG]

    Earler I showed the 585HE Falling block with pistol grip and the light
    barrel. Here it is with Knoxx Compstock buttstock. We added 2 extra
    springs inside for relatively hard recoiling gun, as stock originally made
    for a REM 870 Pump. Works great and looks nice; will putting one on
    the Magtech 585HE singleshot break action and got one in rifle stock
    for Ruger 77 in 585HE.

    [​IMG]

    And many guys want wildcats with shoulders, with big neck down, so
    in developing the ultimate 700 blaster, here is the 700HSM. Shown next
    to Gibbs 650gr ball powder..1000gr at 3800...How about that.
    Will be one of only 2 guns I plan on being over 30 lbs, other is 2bore..
    Whoppee.....Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  11. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    The sabots work in brass cases .First is sabot in a Magtech brass case,
    next to 3" plastic.. In shorter brass it would hold about as much powder
    as in longer plastic if loaded like in the picture..
    Sabots are about .734-735" with slugs in them, and
    the Magtech brass with its thin sides still is slightly small OD at the
    top compared to plastic, with sabot wedged in.

    [​IMG]

    Next is sabot in RMC case, and sides are full thickness like plastic cases
    at the mouth, so don't expand case to hold sabot. We have RMC make case
    mouth ID to fit sabot. Sabot being little over fits barrels tight and rifling
    impresses into plastic well and gets best spin, and being tight it leaves barrel
    straight, with petals opening evenly. Brass case mouths are tight enough that
    we push sabot in with a press.Saves trying to crimp heavy RMC case.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of a barrel and barrel on a gun from 20 gauge singlshots that
    will have the heavy 20ga rifled barrel in picture, mono-blocked into them.

    [​IMG]


    The sabots are not moving very fast and I need money out of them asap, an
    emergency bill coming... And seeing as how we're low on slugs to send with
    the sabots, in big numbers, and no one has yet to buy out our stash of sabots,
    and set up so they can be selling the sabots, we will try selling them
    fast in next few weeks . So we will be having a sale on just the sabots, in larger
    amounts only. We will send one each of 440gr and 500gr slug so the guys
    can see what we have found that works.
    Because of the shipping costs and boxes that 2, 3, or 4 bags of sabots fit
    in, that have an affordable postage cost to pay,we will sell these in 200,
    300, and 400 size orders..So, 200 sabots $47 Shipping included,
    300 sabots $65 Shipping included...400 for $83 shipping included.
    Now 200 of the other brand X of undersize ones cost $68 plus shipping.
    There was dozens of guys the last few years all over the internet that bought
    undersize junk, that wanted good sabots, and complained that the ones they
    bought elsewhere didn't work......We haven't heard from most of them, So guys
    see if you got time, please help us out here..And setup for good shooting...Ed
     

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  12. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    What causes sabot problems/inaccuracy. Some pictures will help.
    First 2 shows a skinny post that pushes on a cushion or sabot
    bottom and it can bend or deflect which if that way when exiting
    barrel can start sabot or slug crooked.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    And more important item that causes a lack of accuracy is if the
    base of discarding sabot tapers or steps down so that it isn't real
    tight as it leaves bore, which can allow it to be cocked.
    On the left is our sabot which has base right and other brand
    which tapers a bit. Easy to see.

    [​IMG]

    Next is a ball and slug load in 2 of our sabots. A 285gr .575" ball
    flattened, put in the bottom and a 400gr Minie above, two different
    styles of Minies.

    [​IMG]

    Here is couple 16ga discarding sabots I made from the undersize
    12ga grey ones. Didn't have to take off much. Much better use
    for them. I made them after Paul in Alaska asked about
    where to find 16ga ones, to see what they looked like.
    They still use 50cal slug.. Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  13. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is 16ga discarding sabots made from grey ones with other 16ga slugs..
    20 ga factory sabot on left for comparison.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of 12ga wads showing good and bad support to the
    bottom of the slug.If in part of the loads the support gets cocked, then
    the slug won't be straight on and can account for open groups.

    [​IMG]

    Here are 2 sabots on the right with super heavy tungsten slug. It is 1100gr,
    but tungsten costs ten times what lead costs.

    [​IMG]

    Here is a sabot home defense or close range defense load setup using our
    sabot. It has five flattened 45cal balls in it. Flattened into a fat disc weighing
    145gr each. You'd star crimp it or use card over them and roll crimp. Like
    having a bunch of supersize flat buckshot, only super size.

    [​IMG]

    Here is comparison picture of the 58cal slugs used in our 12ga sabots, with the
    puny slugs used in many other sabots. And we've moved 5500 of the sabots.
    Deer season is coming fast. Maybe time to get loads tested/sighted in is now.

    [​IMG]

    Some more figures. The 24hr Campfire forums is first one, with our 12ga FH thread,
    to get over half million thread views.The HighRoad second.
    TheFiringLine, third. AccReloading fourth...Ed
     

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  14. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    We have moved few thousand sabots.More here.
    Here is picture of an 8ga wad with tube slug in it, we made.

    [​IMG]

    A pallet load of our 585HE cases has arrived in the US
    and will be here in little while. And should be another pallet
    of them this fall. Here is picture of our 585
    with the solid turned CEB bullets in them.

    [​IMG]

    Here is some helpful, simple math to help figure out the kinetic energy
    of your loads, just by having bullet weight and speed.
    Just put these multipliers which are used for each speed, on a list
    and multiply by the bullet weight in grains. Fast and easy.Ed

    Speed..Multiplier
    1500------5
    1600------5.7
    1700------6.42
    1800------7.2
    1900------8
    2000------9
    2100------9.8
    2200------10.75
    2300------11.75
    2400------12.8
    2500------13.9
    2600------15
    2700------16.2
    2800------17.4
    2900------18.7
    3000------20
     

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  15. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of current 58cal slug options that
    you can get molds for from Lyman,
    Just make sure they are .574" to .577" diameter,
    the best size for the 12ga sabots.

    [​IMG]


    A barrel of 585HE cases..Ed

    [​IMG]

    Made by Bertram and I tested them to max loads and cases hardly expanded,
    650gr over 3000 fps. The same draws used by him to make high pressure
    Cheytac cases, and to finish mine just uses belted header and cases left
    straight and trimmed longer.He makes tens of thousands Cheytac steady all
    the time now and can make ours steady also when needed.....Ed
     

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  16. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    One of our sabot testers with tight barrel, Abolt, with wide lands in
    the barrel, who couldn't do any good at all with our sabot and Alliant Steel
    and one type of slug, had to go to IMR 4759.
    It would twist up the sabot petals. Terrible accuracy.

    My guns have NEF/Sav size barrels and worked fine with Steel as well as 4759.
    Petals open perfect. The Abolt barrel is about .005" smaller than NEF/Sav and
    the lands over twice as wide as the NEF. And has real narrow grooves.
    Guys with Nefs say sabots open fine like ours here.

    He went to different Minie slug and our slow powder loads using
    IMR 4759 powder up to 78-79 gr and finally got down to 2.5" group, I told him
    go to max which is about 80-82 in 3" case.That barrel is like a lot of
    EU made barrels and many are replacement or add on barrels in many slug guns,
    and that is reason why it is so hard to get accuracy across the board in
    sabot shooting in all guns--Takes a lot of work.. Another tester with NEF 12ga using
    Alliant Steel with sabots got good groups like we did here. I tell guys if
    problems occur go to 4759.

    What was happening to sabot petals in the barrel, with the extra tight fit and
    wide lands were petals twisting.. The wide lands were not cutting into the base of
    sabot like in NEF/Sav210 barrels. The twist effect of rifling was on the surface
    of petals, twisting them. It was not getting good hold on the sabot body. The
    4759 starting slower allowed the sabot to get its spin started up to speed
    with the wide land rifling and narrow grooves..It is just the opposite of
    way NEF/Sav 12ga barrels are done. with narrow lands which impress into
    the sabot base the way it is supposed to work..I showed pics above of the
    good rifling marks impressed into our sabots.

    I think after this experimenting run I feel that a lot of accuracy problems
    across the spectrum of barrels are due to barrel differences, and not just
    the differences in factory slugs and/or reloading components.

    Here is pic of bag of our 585 cases with plain head if some need them for
    wildcatting.We have quite a few. Fifteen have 585HE cases now. 585 gun
    building is accelerating. We can get folks going with 100 cases, dies, and soon
    a barrel; and shipping, for 750...Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  17. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of our 12ga sabots with the marks that the barrel lands made, marked with
    black marker. The one with narrow mark is Savage barrel and one with wide mark is
    an Abolt barrel. And the ones fired in Savage and NEFs with the narrow lands the marks
    impressed into the plastic getting good bite and not twisting the petals. The one from abolt
    he used slower powder for easier start and it open petals ok, without twisting petals like
    the faster powder did for him.

    [​IMG]
    ..
    Next is picture showing top edge of sabots. Our sabot on left you roll crimp down over
    the inside of it a little . We have lots of them yet.
    The other factory sabot they crimp real short and sharp
    180 degree crimp down on top of it.

    [​IMG]

    We see a use for modified 585 application in Indiana deer hunting. Mainly shotgun only, but
    they also allow rifles with over 35cal pistol calibers; and any over 35cal rifle with a case
    1.8" or shorter, usually short wildcats. So we have the the 585 HI... The I is for Indiana.
    Here is picture of it next to the kinda little 500 S&W. 585 HI holds over 80 gr powder.

    Next picture is a Magtech chambered for it. Gets 440gr Minie over 2,100 fps.
    The .585"- .587" Minies of 440gr, 540gr, etc work in it, and they're good deer slugs
    We got other guns with it going into; bolt guns, like in the last picture,
    single shots and checking couple lever actions.
    Might work great in MNs many guys like....Ed

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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  18. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    In above post we compare the top thickness of sabots
    .Here is comparison of the thickness of the sides of two types of
    brass 12ga cases, the RMC turned case and the thinner
    Magtech drawn case. Easy to see you can't size with same dies
    and sometimes you have to use different wads..

    [​IMG]

    In posts earler in the thread you saw variety of wad columns with
    12ga sabots and here is picture of my favorite wads to go between
    seal and sabot. The white felt ones from BPI. They compress down
    evenly on firing, easy to load, decent price,

    [​IMG]

    You've seen the work on our 585HE posted. Folks ask what case
    I made first ones from and how. Here is a sketch showing the steps
    I used to make the first 585HE from long basic straight Nyati brass.
    The start of the belt step I put on the case where it is thick I do it
    in my case spinner lathe I made. Then case is lubed and run into
    couple swaging/sizing dies and comes out formed into our belted,
    straight sided, 585HE case...... It is really faster getting a big
    run of cases made in a factory.


    [​IMG]

    Shot a 12ga sabot load w/440 gr Minie bullet in smoothbore Rossi
    in 3" case, Going about 1700... .. 4" group 3 shots at 30 yds.
    Gun works fine, shoots nice. Got extra weight in the butt.
    The Minie I used is a semi-round nose. If I had the ones of same length
    with blunt nose, slightly heavier the group size would be smaller as
    they'd be more nose heavy, be like Foster slugs..Ed
     

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  19. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Here is picture of the group improvement a guy had shooting our
    sabots in a real tight barrel. Actually an undersize barrel compared
    to Savage and Nef barrels. Had a wide open group with shotgun
    powder but made it much smaller using much more
    of the slower 4759.

    [​IMG]

    There is a guy now in Canada with our sabots for guys there and
    other countries, and as well, he can ship back to here. He plans
    on supplying the .58cal slugs also for the sabots if guys can't get
    them or don't cast their own.......
    Contact is- jeff.a.white at gmail.com
    If things work out for him he plans on getting a bunch
    our 585 cases imported for guys to get there also.

    I got some factory 8ga kiln loads, 3 oz lead at 1800 in the long
    barrel falling block. Got box of 25 to see how they compared to the
    loads we setup.They go faster in long barrel than in short kiln guns.
    Our favorite is 900gr in the 8ga wadcup at 2300, in plastic case.

    [​IMG]

    Here is picture of section 585HE case showing 4 pyrodex 54cal,
    60gr equivalent pellets, with a 440 gr Minie bullet.
    Actual powder wt is about 185gr....Goes about 2600.
    Nice cloud of smoke and really bellers out of the slow twist barrel
    barrel we set up for minies.....Top pellet I tapered a little and fit it
    inside the hollowbase of the bullet.That's how to get 4 pellets in....Ed

    [​IMG]
     

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  20. hubel458

    hubel458 AH Senior Member

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    Another use for 58cal Minie Bullets would be to setup a 24ga FH.
    Minie bullets cheap to cast and buy. We use the .575-.577" in our
    12ga sabot, and the .585-.587 in my 585HE. And you could use
    577 NE bullets also.

    For those in shotgun only areas there is a way. You can get 2.5"
    Magtech brass cases, but also you can set up a 3" chamber and use
    577NE 3" brass. Grafs shows some under 4 bucks each. Cheaper
    than getting them made. And if you set up chamber with shotgun style
    forcing cone you could shoot shorter Magtech as well as plastic cases.
    Reason to use 577 cases, they are stronger solid head, last forever,
    and can be run higher pressures and still last forever.
    You can get barrels, 58cal at Green Mtn I think. .We got some also.

    AND the first batch 585 barrels from McGowen has got here, more
    will be built.They are the regular 1 to 20 twist barrels, and we have 14
    that are profiled and polished, and 3 others that are straight blanks,
    1 to 20 twist. And 6 slow twist barrel blanks for guys doing mainly
    Minie bullet guns, and bunch smoothbore blanks...Pictures soon.

    Here are couple pictures of a 585HE gun a guy is doing with nice
    walnut stock. Gun has extra bedding lug and accra-glassed.
    It is an Enfield and has single stack magazine.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     

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