Concern about Deposit Refund Policy - Bushwack

Norwegianwoods said:

2 simple rules; read the contract before you sign it and buy an insurance if you think the amount is to high to lose if something should happen.

And I still think this is a great offer.

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this sums it up... ESPECIALLY THE INSURANCE PART... it always amazes me how as to how people who are booking an expensive trip dont have travel insurance. even if you only travel once every so often take it out for that trip, and dont moan about how much it costs because it will be a lot less than what you could lose by having to cancel. i travel quite a lot and have an annual travel insurance policy covering my family for the year, and it only costs approx in us $ 650.00.

now bushwack hows it going, and hopefully the bookings are going well?

People need to brush up on their reading comprehension. Nobody ever said that BushLeague did not have a legal right to the deposit. Nobody including myself. The many posts here and on other boards have been consistent in representing it as a moral, decency issue. It is very obvious that there are many who have no decency towards fellow man, and that's the real shame of it all.

Jaco, I believe that some discretion should be used with these return/not returning deposits. That's what I do myself. If a hunter cancels his hunt because his friends bail out, and he loses his deposit, he will get no sympathy from me. Terminal illness by the paying hunter, not his buddies.....well, myself and many others will vote on the decency of BushLeague with out pocketbooks, and BushLeague is history. Once again, this is where discretion comes in.

Now, Bushwack, you've not answered my question that I've asked 3 times.........are you going to be at the Dallas SCI?

raider this seems to be going around in repetitive circles. if the gentleman had insurance he could have claimed his money back due to the medical reasons. if i read correctly there was only 4 days notice given, and as said money would have been paid out to various people by then, and they arent going to give it back. i appreciate that you are a guide/outfitter in usa ,but i think you will find there is more expenditure prior to a hunt in africa than there is in the usa. your aim seems to be to close him down or cause maximum damage to his business from some of your comments, which i find as ridiculous as it is excessive. i am also interested as to what your actions will be if he is at dallas sci as your dialogue is fairly aggressive . what is the saying i am looking for....ah NEXT.

spike, you must have missed this part.......

JGRaider said:

Here's just one reply from the other forum. Looks like you need to check your facts Norwegian.......

"The problem remains that this was just business for you...you kept the client's deposit because you could. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

The deposit was in excess of the daily rate for the entire safari. Carolinasman did in fact ask you to keep whatever amount you had already spent on his safari and you refused. You wanted all the money and you got all the money. You also will live with the ramifications of your decision."

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My goal is not to close him down. As I've said, my goal is to expose this bottom feeder for who he is and let potential customers make the decision for themselves. As to the DSCI, I like to meet people face to face and have a little conversation so they can't whine about someone (me) talking behind their back, or on the internet. Calling a spade a spade while looking a them in the eye. I hate liars, thieves, and cheats. That's the way I roll.

..well, myself and many others will vote on the decency of BushLeague with out pocketbooks, and BushLeague is history.

ok but this sentence to my understanding means bushleague is in the past so wouldnt exist anymore , which means closed down... anyway i think any point you wished to make has been made so i am bowing out of this , ndapita

JGRaider said:

People need to brush up on their reading comprehension. ......... Now, Bushwack, you've not answered my question that I've asked 3 times.........are you going to be at the Dallas SCI?

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Reading comprehension?!
FYI, no one will be attending Dallas SCI! There isn't one.

DSC Dallas Safari Club - Convention

The list of exhibitors at DSC 2013:
http://www.biggame.org/convention/2013%20Exhibitors%20list%20for%20Web_112112.pdf

JGRaider said:

It is very obvious that there are many who have no decency towards fellow man, and that's the real shame of it all. .........

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Condescension, personal insults and sarcasm on an international forum represent your idea of decency?
Oh, the irony from the glass house...

JGRaider said:

..............Once again, this is where discretion comes in.

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Discretion was exercised. You don't agree. OK, we get it.

The Moral of the story is: Make certain you ask the questions and get the answers before you make your booking.

Bushwack said:

Trophy / Management hunt combination Package:
7 days, 6 nights, for:

Each time a hunter shoots a big trophy animals specie from the trophy list, he/she would earn the right to take TWO cull / management animal at NO CHARGE EXTRA.

Big Trophy List:

Eland @ US 2 400
Gemsbuck @ US 1 450
Giraffe @US 3 200
Nyala @ US 2 800
Red Hartebeest @ US 1 100
Waterbuck @ US 2 200
Blue Wildebeest @US 1 300
Black Wildebeest @US 1 300
Zebra @US 1 300
Kudu @US 2 400

Cull list: (female / young males)

Impala
Blesbuck
Springbuck
Warthog

Day rate:

US260 (1x1) & (2X1)
US160 (Observer)


Area: North West and/or boundary of Limpopo Provinces
Ranch size: 500ha - 1400ha
High Fenced: Yes
PH: Myself
PH no: 2012/08 & CPM-302-00106
Outfitter: Myself
Outfitter no: 2012/019

Included:

Airport transfer - pickup and return to local airport
Ground transportation,
Lodging, meals and drinks (Soft drinks, bottled water, local table wine and beer),
Laundry (Except Sundays),
Transportation of trophies to the taxidermy,
Hunting licences,
Skinning / salting of trophies,
Services of tracker / skinner and licensed Professional Hunter,
Government tax, 14% VAT.

Not included:

Airfare,
Dip & Pack,
Shipment of trophies,
Taxidermy costs,
Gratuity (Clients own discretion),
Air charters,
Hotel accommodation before and after the safari, items of a personal nature,

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not commenting as i am out of this , just putting the thread back into the picture.

Thank you Spike, about time.

I love the offer, think the idea are very good. I dont want a big bunch of trophies, just some I still dont have and then I want just the thrill of the hunt.

Thanks for the DSC info Brick. You obviously knew what I meant. I am a very decent person, as myself and several others donated money to the victim making him whole, since he has bigger fish to fry, and was thrilled to do so. I think that's a very decent thing to do, don't you? This in light of the fact I haven't spent one dime in Africa on myself. Looks like BushLeague will be absent. Money is obviously tight for him.

I stand by Bushwack and Jaco. Hunting is a big business. All personal stuff aside....that is where insurance comes into play. Everyone loses money at one time or another.

To start off I would like to say I hope that the client can beat this disease and have a speedy recovery.

I also agree with the actions and justifications made by Bushwack.

Giving an outfitter only 4 days notice, does not give them the opportunity to fill the spot allocated for this hunt.

As an outfitter in Ontario Canada, for black bear, I have had the same situation happen to me. I can assure you that there usually involves a substantial amount of lost revenue when a client does not show up. This amount usually far exceeds any and all deposits .

I believe that offering to move the date of the hunt to another time was very generous.l

I do not believe that what Bushwack did was immoral or wrong. I actually think it was very generous.

enysse said:

I stand by Bushwack and Jaco. Hunting is a big business. All personal stuff aside....that is where insurance comes into play. Everyone loses money at one time or another.

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Good point enysse I hadn't even looked at that side of it did this guy not have sportsmens insurance to cover his losses and if not, why not? 150 -200 dollars isn't much to pay out to get your money back.

Thanks Bob! Spike brought up a lot of great points too.

Like many of you on here, I have lost people I loved to cancer too and other disasters for that matter. I come to believe you have insurance to cover your loses or you accept the loss....because it's not covered.

Things don't go the way you plan. It's life, I can tell you a lot of sad stories about how things didn't work out.

Four days notice, and still Bushwack offered a partial refund !

I would say this is generous of him.

Suffice it to say that the vast majority (most everyone) on the other forum disagrees with you guys and agrees with me. He will have lost much more than the deposit by lost business in the future. Generous and Bushwack do not belong in the same sentence.

Bushwack said:

Trophy / Management hunt combination Package:
7 days, 6 nights, for:

Each time a hunter shoots a big trophy animals specie from the trophy list, he/she would earn the right to take TWO cull / management animal at NO CHARGE EXTRA.

Big Trophy List:

Eland @ US 2 400
Gemsbuck @ US 1 450
Giraffe @US 3 200
Nyala @ US 2 800
Red Hartebeest @ US 1 100
Waterbuck @ US 2 200
Blue Wildebeest @US 1 300
Black Wildebeest @US 1 300
Zebra @US 1 300
Kudu @US 2 400

Cull list: (female / young males)

Impala
Blesbuck
Springbuck
Warthog

Day rate:

US260 (1x1) & (2X1)
US160 (Observer)


Area: North West and/or boundary of Limpopo Provinces
Ranch size: 500ha - 1400ha
High Fenced: Yes
PH: Myself
PH no: 2012/08 & CPM-302-00106
Outfitter: Myself
Outfitter no: 2012/019

Included:

Airport transfer - pickup and return to local airport
Ground transportation,
Lodging, meals and drinks (Soft drinks, bottled water, local table wine and beer),
Laundry (Except Sundays),
Transportation of trophies to the taxidermy,
Hunting licences,
Skinning / salting of trophies,
Services of tracker / skinner and licensed Professional Hunter,
Government tax, 14% VAT.

Not included:

Airfare,
Dip & Pack,
Shipment of trophies,
Taxidermy costs,
Gratuity (Clients own discretion),
Air charters,
Hotel accommodation before and after the safari, items of a personal nature,

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I was going to stay out of this pissing match, (you guys know me well enough by now to know I can't resist) but you're last post "Raider" (Which is one of the reason's I am NOT a member of the "other" forum) says it all. Guess my take on this ongoing squabble and you're last post is, "That's why there are other forums, if you don't like the one you are one find one that suits you". Seems this one suits me just fine. From a business standpoint (if all is true) bushwack is a business man. Other Outfitter/PH's have posted amazing responses about their cost and overhead. I got news for you, 4 days is foolish if you expect any kind of refund....Regardless of the reason.

Bushwack, this is an amazing offer, I was going to post that anyway. Glad to see you took some of the advise from the other thread. Cull animals sound good.

As SpikeT said, back to the original post please.

JGRaider said:

spike, you must have missed this part.......



My goal is not to close him down. As I've said, my goal is to expose this bottom feeder for who he is and let potential customers make the decision for themselves. As to the DSCI, I like to meet people face to face and have a little conversation so they can't whine about someone (me) talking behind their back, or on the internet. Calling a spade a spade while looking a them in the eye. I hate liars, thieves, and cheats. That's the way I roll.

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BTW, Just re-read this whole thread, and YES you are trying to shut him down, that's exactly what you agenda is about, contacting brokers, countless post on different forums, .... Just an observation.:confusion2:

thought so my self.....

35bore said:

BTW, Just re-read this whole thread, and YES you are trying to shut him down, that's exactly what you agenda is about, contacting brokers, countless post on different forums, .... Just an observation.:confusion2:

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No, I'm not. Who I contact on this subject really shouldn't matter, should it? If in fact the vast majority of potential clients agree with you guys that BushLeague is right, and I'm way off base, then he will be fine, and all I will have lost is some time. All I and many others have done is present the facts, and offer an opinion. Let the facts speak for themselves. Me and my outfitting partner once gave a 12 year old kid a free mule deer hunt (we guided him on our properties) because he loves hunting and he lost his dad to cancer 6 months prior. That cost us money out of our pocket. All of our hunts stay full now, and are full through 2015. I happen to think that's no coincidence. Your mileage may vary.

JGRaider said:

No, I'm not. Who I contact on this subject really shouldn't matter, should it? If in fact the vast majority of potential clients agree with you guys that BushLeague is right, and I'm way off base, then he will be fine, and all I will have lost is some time. All I and many others have done is present the facts, and offer an opinion. Let the facts speak for themselves. Me and my outfitting partner once gave a 12 year old kid a free mule deer hunt (we guided him on our properties) because he loves hunting and he lost his dad to cancer 6 months prior. That cost us money out of our pocket. All of our hunts stay full now, and are full through 2015. I happen to think that's no coincidence. Your mileage may vary.

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Yet you keep posting like a child trying to win an argument that can't be won... Many have posted, and yet you persist, pushing you're point. I get it, it is a difference of what you deem right and what he deemed right, you don't agree with the way he handled it, so you bash him on an international forum.... I commend you for what you did for the kid that lost his dad to cancer ( a disease that only satan himself could come up with ). BUT, that was by your choice, you chose to donate that hunt, and you probably had time to prepare for that hunt, sounds like Bushwack wasn't given that luxury (again I commend you),,,,, Bushwack has the right to donate as he see's fit, he does not need me or you or anyone else telling him what he should or should not give away, it is a business, plain and simple. If you disagree, which I'm guessing you will, I have to quote you on something... "I hate liars, thieves, and cheats. That's the way I roll." (That's you're quote) .... If you cost this man one hunt, then are you not a thief yourself???? Just because you thought he should give away something that belonged to him and not you.... Sorry, that sounds way too current administration for me to accept.

Now please, can we let this man get on with selling this hunt?

The floor is now your's Mr. Bushwack, May you sell a baker's dozen.