Cape Buffalo Cartridge?

Anjin said:

I am no great expert either, having shot only two cape buffalo and recovered only one. On the first, the action froze on my LH Remington 700 custom barreled in 375 H&H after the first shot and he took off.

I am not sure whether this should be classified as fact or opinion, but I was just reading Terry Weiland's book Dangerous Game Rifles last night to check on the .375 Weatherby, in which I have had an interest. Weiland seems to have a very deep knowledge of such cartridges and the willingness to speak plainly. He says that the .375 H&H was deliberately designed with a nice taper on the cartridge case for easy extraction. All attempts to blow out that case make it more like a straight cylinder.

Indeed, he mentions a hunt he did with Robin Hurt, the famed PH, who owned a .375 Weatherby. Sure enough, after a hot day in the sun, a case froze in the chamber and would not extract. They had to take it back to camp, pour cold water on it and open the bolt with a mallet.

That account has persuaded me that cartridges like the H&H or .416 Rigby are immensely preferable to the Weatherbys. Beyond that, read Mike LaGarde's book on ballistics which says that slower speeds achieve much better penetration in such cartridges, as long as they have good sectional density.

Again, I say this as one who has personal experience with a frozen case in a dangerous situation, after the first shot on a buff that we tracked for over 14 hours. I had to knock open the bolt with a knife hilt, since I did not have a mallet. <g> Never again. As soon as I got back I had Butch Searcy install a Winchester 70 extractor, ejector and safety on the 700 action. That does not guarantee no freeze-ups, but it should be easier to force a tight case out.

Norm Solberg

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Jeez... I would have shoved the rifle up someone's ringpiece at Remington's, and bought a CZ. That sort of stuff-up can get you killed!

This 44 inch daga boy was taken by me last week in Zimbabwe and the .375 H&H barnes X bullet exited the other side. They are relativley soft skinned for a big animal. He made it less than 40 yards before collapsing. Single shot placement taking both lungs and severing the arteries connecting the heart.

A .375 H&H (as mentioned by many others) is plenty of gun for a cape buffalo with good shot placement. This calibre with the lower recoil is going to be much more comfortable if you have not shot big bore rifles before and also extremley suitable for any plains game you encounter.

Have a great hunt

timbear said:

Jeez... I would have shoved the rifle up someone's ringpiece at Remington's, and bought a CZ. That sort of stuff-up can get you killed!

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I certainly would have preferred a CZ, but at that time (the early 1980s) having a custom rifle based on a Remington 700 action was about the only way to get a left-handed bolt action rifle in a big bore for a reasonable price. That was before Winchester brought back the CRF "pre-64" style and before many LH imported Mauser rifles were obtainable from East European sources like Serbia.

Weatherby LH rifles were available, but I did not want that. Johan Potgieter, who was helping his PH dad before becoming licensed himself, carried a .460 Weatherby and was one of only two professionals I ever knew to have used one. I always suspected that a client gave it to him as a tip after deciding never to shoot it again. <g>

BTW, I misspelled the name of Mike LaGrange, who wrote Ballistics In Perspective. Mike discusses ALL kinds of cartridges used in animal control situations, down to the very small ones. He personally had shot over 6000 elephants at the time he wrote it. He also polled many other PHs. None of them liked Weatherby calibers, though some found the rifles okay in traditional calibers. Mike himself seemed to favor the .458 Winchester if suitably loaded with the right powder and bullets.

Today there are many more choices than when he wrote, including several formerly obsolete ones that have been brought back, so I suspect he might like some others too.

Norm Solberg

Gunsmoke said:

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This 44 inch daga boy was taken by me last week in Zimbabwe and the .375 H&H barnes X bullet exited the other side. They are relativley soft skinned for a big animal. He made it less than 40 yards before collapsing. Single shot placement taking both lungs and severing the arteries connecting the heart.

A .375 H&H (as mentioned by many others) is plenty of gun for a cape buffalo with good shot placement. This calibre with the lower recoil is going to be much more comfortable if you have not shot big bore rifles before and also extremley suitable for any plains game you encounter.

Have a great hunt

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Love that scarred up face on the bull in addition to the great horns.

Gunsmoke said:

.....the .375 H&H barnes X bullet exited the other side.

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Nice Bull Barry.
Another vote for a tsx.
How many grains were you throwing?
How far away was this shot?

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of other rifles out there that are just great, but the anti-Weatherby histeria is a bit much. I shot my .375 Wby DGR for hours at a time in the heat the last two summers from 90-102 F. Sometimes, quickly enough that the barrel would burn my hand (te sun, even in Africa, won't do that). No freezing or stuck cartridges.

I love the rifle more than the day I bought it. Shoots like a bench rifle.


Like some here have said, you should get what you like and what feels best. For me, the Mark V (esp. in a DGR) is one of my favorites. The 54 deg. bolt lift, compared to the 90 deg. lift common to most rifles, and the sorter bolt throw makes the Mark Vs so much quick and easier to confidently operate than most rifles. The unique 9-lug design makes this possible. I've shot a couple of thousand rounds through my .340 Wby Accumark and .375 Wby DGR without a single failre and, in some cases, letting the gun get a lot hotter than the sun can make it anywhere. Not one single whiff of failure.

The biggest thing I've hunted is brown bear, and have not hunted in Africa, so disregard what I'm saying if you want, but the .375 Wby punches at least as hard at close range as the .357 H&H and increases a rifle's utility at longer ranges if you want a one-gun safari rifle. For example, the .350gr TSX in a .375 Wby can look like this:

Yds / Vel. / Impact / KE / 10 mph Drift
000 / 2550 / -1.75 / 5054 / 0.00
050 / 2444 / 1.34 / 4642 / 0.65
100 / 2344 / 2.97 / 4270 / 1.30
150 / 2248 / 3.01 / 3928 / 2.41
200 / 2153 / 1.32 / 3603 / 4.01
250 / 2060 / -2.24 / 3298 / 6.12
300 / 1970 / -7.86 / 3016 / 8.77
350 / 1883 / -15.73 / 2756 / 12.02

Mine stopped this guy in about 1.5 seconds after one good shot:



Because of the stock shape, and with a shoulder-pad, mine is comfortable to shoot even off the bench. I would never say to someone to only consider a Weatherby and won't bad mouth any of the other rifles that have had their share of isolated problems, but the idea that Weatherby means incompetent shooter/hunter or means freezing, just isn't true, even if it's written. I practiced A LOT with mine, just like with my other rifles and just like I would have with other rifles I don't have, if I were going to hunt with them. With practice, recoil with a .375 Wby is no problem, just like with other stout cartridges.

Just because a small number of people have shown up to Africa with .460 Wbys they can't shoot, doesn't mean that any decent hunter who practices a lot with a .375 Wby won't be a skilled hunter with it, just like they would with any other African caliber.

My Alaskan guide also was skeptical about me carrying my big Weatherby. Until he asked me with no notice to shoot at the base of some reeds in the river 100yds away. When I immediately complied, he wasn't worried about my Weatherby. When I plugged that bear offhand right in the hear-lung area, and dropped him like a rock, he wasn't thinking Weatherby=bad shooting, flincher.

Just my $0.02.

MarineHawk said:

I'm not saying that there aren't a lot of other rifles out there that are just great, but the anti-Weatherby histeria is a bit much. I shot my .375 Wby DGR for hours at a time in the heat the last two summers from 90-102 F. Sometimes, quickly enough that the barrel would burn my hand (te sun, even in Africa, won't do that). No freezing or stuck cartridges.

. . .
My Alaskan guide also was skeptical about me carrying my big Weatherby. Until he asked me with no notice to shoot at the base of some reeds in the river 100yds away. When I immediately complied, he wasn't worried about my Weatherby. When I plugged that bear offhand right in the hear-lung area, and dropped him like a rock, he wasn't thinking Weatherby=bad shooting, flincher.

Just my $0.02.

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Very thoughtful post with excellent data. I will archive it. Awfully nice bear, too.

I am not sure that I am persuaded about blown-out cases not sticking, although my personal bad experience was with standard factory .375 H&H. As noted, that was designed with a taper. I'll think about it.

I will say that in Africa it does get quite hot in the savannah in October, meaning 120-plus and that might have been a factor. Or perhaps the chamber was a bit snug.

Norm Solberg

I was in a similar situation last year. I was scheduled for a plains game hunt, with a Cape Buffalo for the following year. Now I have scrubbed the PG and am planning my Buff hunt instead with a couple PG species as a bonus. That is happening in 2012. I was limited on choice by funds, and opt'd for the Ruger African in .375 Ruger. I also read the book by Mr. Weiland, and though about what I read. The reasons I went with the Ruger version of .375 was a shorter action and similar ballistics to the H&H version. Another was cost, which allowed me to spend the extra I would have spent on glass. The Ruger is accurate and with practice the shorter action is rather fast, although I haven't stared down the snout of an angry Buff yet. Whatever you decide on, practice as you will get used to the recoil with time, and get yourself prepared for making a rapid follow up shot in practicle application. Just my newbe thoughts used in my own preperation.

Sorry for the slow reply - been away for a week or so.

300 grain bullets and at about 40 yards for the BUff. I shouldnt complain as all game taken with these were one shot kills but I was a little disapointed in the expansion of these bullets on this trip to zimbabwe. Most recovered projectiles were found to be only partially opened and of not much greater final diameter than the 180 gr TSX bullets I use in my 30.06. Anyone else had similar issues I wonder?

BRICKBURN said:

Nice Bull Barry.
Another vote for a tsx.
How many grains were you throwing?
How far away was this shot?

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Our Asiatic buff are very similar in size, muscle and bone structure and tenacity to Cape buff. Over the course of several hundred kills I have witnessed far more effective one shot kills with the .375 loaded with Barnes T.S.X's than with any all the other cartridge/bullet combos combined.
The fact that most hunters are comfortable with accurately placing their first shot with a .375 contributes greatly to these observations/results.

As with all bovines, the placement of the very first shot is as crucial as the integrity of the projectile you are using, a few thousanths of an inch in bore size will not compensate for the previous.

If you are legitimately capable, and hardened, in the use of a medium bore 40 or 416, or truely adept with a large bore 45 or .500 then you will defenitely see a step up in effect.... but only so if you are able to take advantage with accurate shooting.

Find what you can comfortably shoot accurately, load it with a premium grade projectile and train yourself in the location of the vitals from any angle.

When comes time for your hunt put all your money on that first shot and be instantaneously ready to back it up with an equally accurate and well placed follow up and you'll soon be admiring your Cape buff.

Good hunting,

Paul.

Good post Paul, enjoyed it.

Joseph,
As a reloader, you can decide how much recoil you're willing to put into the case!
Weatherby make a beautiful well balanced rifle! You don't have to shoot it at their specs!
There are sooo many maker choices out there! But to answer the question, a 416 Rem cart using Federal Premium Trophy Bonded Sledge Hammer solids and Bear claw softs will keep your PH very happy!
Just shoot whatever you get well! Shoot it offhand and off shooting sticks quickly, accurately and efficiently!

Mike70560 said:

Joseph,

The 416 Rem. or the 416 Rigby will push a 400 grain bullet around 2400 FPS as "standard" velocities.

Winchester is now offering the 416 Remington in their Safari Express Model 70. I have killed a couple of buffalo with the 416 Remington and was very pleased with its performance. The new Model 70's are pretty good rifles from the factory from what I understand. The same goes for the 416 Rem as the Rigby, it is a fine cartridge for anything you can hunt.

Model 70 Safari Express, Bolt Action Dangerous Game Rifle -- Winchester Repeating Arms -- Product Model
If you are new to the game the Rem or Rigby will be a handful at first but doable and eventually pretty tame.

When the 416 remington came out there were rumors of sticky extraction. At 2400 FPS I have never had a problem with 416 Rem case extracting. Not even the hint of a problem, not even in Louisiana where it is typically a hell of a lot hotter than it will be while you are hunting Africa. Bullets: Choose a good premium bullet. North Fork, Barnes, Swift, Cutting Edge Bullets are among my favorites.

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Hello, your opinion please.
I am used to shoot with my Winch 70 Safari Express .375 H&H. Today I have the opportunity to buy ( at a very low price) the same rifle but .416 RM.
I have shot the .458 WM so. But I dont know .416 RM.
What 's about its recoil ? Stronger than .458WM or between .375 H&H and .458WM ?
Is there a great difference between .375H&H and .416RM ? Is it reliable ? Well accepted by this Winch ?
Thanks for your help.

For the first time DG hunter, who has limited experience with the larger calibres, I would probably just recommend a 375 (I like the H&H) tipped with TSX or with triple shock, swift A Frame and even TBclaw, they seem to be a good combination on the 375's and especially on Buff.

Stay away from very large calibres you are not familiar with. If one really wanted one of the larger boys make sure that you are comfortable with it and can place the first and all important shot very accurately....

You only get one first shot.

My best always

Hi, ClassicSafari
About the pic of the double :

What's the gunsmaker 's name please ?
Verney Chapuis, Merkel, Heym, Sabatti or others ?
What a great look !!! Classy !!

Just returned from Zimbabwe last week where I took two CZ 550 Safari magnum rifles one in 500 Jeffery that I used on 2 elephants with out standing performance and a 416 Rigby loaded with 400gr Barnes TS and 400gr DGS. I shot a buffalo quartering towrd me with the 416, bullet went through the heart and spun him a round, I put a follow up shot with a DGS and dropped him. The Barnes TS was recovered perfectly mushroomed and the solid passed through. I have shot a buffalo through the heart with a 375 H&H and he ran 50 yards on a earlier trip. I also shot a buffalo with a 460 weatherby, which was just way to much gun, but definitly effective. I also shot a Giraffe at 200 yards with the 416 rigby and recovered the bullet just under the skin on the oposit side also fully mushroomed. I would have to say in my experince that you can't beat a 416 Rigby with Barnes TS for buffalo. Any thing larger is just not needed. Anything less may still do the job under ideal conditions. But for difficult shot angles and quick kills, I'll pick the 416 Rigby. Don't get me wrong, a 375 H&H is a great gun and I have shot a lot of game with it. But the 416 Rigby is just more my style. The recoil is a littel stout at the range but completely un noticable in the feild and I have used it on every thing from Baboons to Giraffes.

Congratulations on your elephant and buffalo. Please post photos and a hunting report.

My favorite calibers for buffalo are 9,3 x 62 and 404Jeffery ( cartridges from NORMA, RWS and Hornady ).
Witold

I think the old saying about shot placement vs caliber applies here. While I'm no expert and hunted exactly 1 cape buff that's still a true statement. My fear would be that the Weatherby howitzers would be difficult to shoot unless you are an experienced big bore shooter. Speaking from experience buff are tough and if you pull the shot just a little it can spell disaster. If I had to do my buff hunt again I'd take my 375 H&H and will if I have the oppurtunity at another buff in the future. If a 40 cal is what you want the 416 Rigby would be my choice especially if you are going to load your own ammo. The Rigby is a very versatile cartridge and can be made as hot or as mild as you'd like from my understanding. The other end of it is that if something weird were to happen and your ammo was lost the standard tried and true cartridges are going to be a hellava lot easier to find in Africa unlike the Weatherbys. Just my 2 cents.

I've not heard much about the. 370 Sako (9.3x66), but it sounds like a good one. Why not try it out and give us all a good post hunt review on it.