Day Fees

Boela

Boela

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This will most probably be related more to Outfitters and PH's but please feel free to comment...Is this not the one area where charging is done wrong?

Lets put it this way: A hunter books a 5 day hunt at $500 / day, shoots 3 Trophies totalling let's say $4500 and goes back home. Total potential income = $7000

A non-hunter stays the same amount of days at $200 per day and goes home with excellent memories. Total potential income = $1000

Are we not supposed to swop these day fees round??? Reward the Hunter more for they bring in extra $ with every animal taken. A non-hunter expects the exact same treatment as the hunter and potentially even a bit more, yet no extra income is generated for the industry.
I personally feel that the hunter should be "rewarded" if I can put it that way, maybe even encourage a hunter to bring another hunter on safari??
 
Hunters and NonHunters are tied together.
From the client perspective bringing his partner along: The Observer rate is an increased cost of going hunting.

"Encouragement" usually takes the form of a slightly reduced day rate for multiple hunters.

Often hunters are encouraged by removing the increased cost of the observer day rate. Often times the Outfitter does not charge the "observer" hunting rates to take a trophy or two. Although by rights they could charge the hunting day rate.

The Observer does not require the same services as a hunter. Where do you propose that they require more services? Spas and travel to destinations are usually extras and generate income.
 
The obs is normally looked as an extra through the hunter so he is getting a break. Your already paying for the ph so the cost is for food/lodging and that kind of stuff. It is cheaper then a 2x1 rate you would normally pay and as said above most guy will let an obs. shot some animals.

Most guys bringing obs are adding a wife or kids so it all goes on one bill in the end.
 
I agree with BRICKBURN. Plus there will be hunters you would loose if the observer rate is to high. Hunters who would not come if their spouse did not go due to high cost.
If I had a daily rate problem it would be those that charge full(and sometimes 1/2) daily rate for the 1st and last day when you are not hunting. Some then add on more costs to pick you up and take you back to the airport. I can partly understand it if they are located far from the airport but some that charge this are not. Also if there are more than just the hunter each person is charged these fees. Yet you are all in one car for the ride. Even most taxis charge for the ride not per person.

One thing I dislike is that a 7 day hunt is really only 5 days of hunting with most outfitters. Then paying the daily rates for those 2 days lost. Sometimes 1/2 daily rate which is still more than a good hotel where you could be doing other sightseeing things. I found an excellent outfitter that did not do this. A 7 day hunt meant 7 FULL days of hunting and you were in camp for 9 days, plus they did not charge for those 2 days nor airport pick up. We had a beyond excellent hunt with 9 SCI book animals. My daughter went as an observer and planned to take one animal. She ended up taking 8 animals and they still only charged her observer rates. They really liked her! I would NOT expect an outfitter to charge observer rates if the observer then went ahead and shot more than one/two animals. These were just over the top good people.
 
It's to the outfitters advantage to have even a observer shoot a pile of trophies.
 
Divernhunter said:
I agree with BRICKBURN. Plus there will be hunters you would loose if the observer rate is to high. Hunters who would not come if their spouse did not go due to high cost.
If I had a daily rate problem it would be those that charge full(and sometimes 1/2) daily rate for the 1st and last day when you are not hunting. Some then add on more costs to pick you up and take you back to the airport. I can partly understand it if they are located far from the airport but some that charge this are not. Also if there are more than just the hunter each person is charged these fees. Yet you are all in one car for the ride. Even most taxis charge for the ride not per person.

One thing I dislike is that a 7 day hunt is really only 5 days of hunting with most outfitters. Then paying the daily rates for those 2 days lost. Sometimes 1/2 daily rate which is still more than a good hotel where you could be doing other sightseeing things. I found an excellent outfitter that did not do this. A 7 day hunt meant 7 FULL days of hunting and you were in camp for 9 days, plus they did not charge for those 2 days nor airport pick up. We had a beyond excellent hunt with 9 SCI book animals. My daughter went as an observer and planned to take one animal. She ended up taking 8 animals and they still only charged her observer rates. They really liked her! I would NOT expect an outfitter to charge observer rates if the observer then went ahead and shot more than one/two animals. These were just over the top good people.
Click to expand...
The amount of days hunted is up to the hunter entirely. Some outfitters DO advertise a 7 day hunt but actually hunt 5 days. This is a system I have never liked and have said so before. To me a 7 day hunt is 7 days of hunting time with travel days on the ends. Usually travel days will be charged some thing depending on mileage or time to transport to airports etc. But in the end its up to the hunter to arrange for the amount of actual hunt days he has.
 
Jeff-I agree about the shooting of extra animals. It is one of those things that happens after you get there and start your experience. Suddenly you want animals that you did not consider while at home.

sestoppelman--I agree it is up to the hunter to decide how many days. I also agree a 7 day hunt should be 7 days of hunting. What I found is that MOST outfitters call/advertise it as a 7 day hunt and really you only hunt 5 days.

We also killed animals in the middle of the day so why should we have to go back to camp and not hunt. As my PH said it usually is so the PH/tracker etc can watch the football/soccer game. If I am paying a daily rate of over $300 USA then at least I should have their services all day not just a few hours of it. I will admit we did all spot and stalk hunting but I think(I may be wrong) that even in a blind you could see animals all day long. Of course if you only want to hunt part of the day that is what you should do since you are the one paying.

Then again these are just my thoughts.
I am glad I found an excellent outfitter that see things my way. We agree and that is why I will be returning in 2017 when I thought my 1st trip would be my only one. I have to admit those that said once you go you will/want to return to Africa. :)
 
South Africa is such an amazing EXPERIENCE and VALUE vs any other place on the planet in terms of variety of quarry, sights, smells, sounds, food, culture, friendliness and so forth I don't how anyone can bellyache about the on average $350 daily rates.
 
Divernhunter I agree completely on all counts, especially about hunting all day that's what I came to Africa for!
 
I hear what Jeff and Drivenhunter are saying about hunting all day long. I don't really buy the story of so it gives the PH/trackers time to watch soccer/rugby...these games are all played late afternoon, not mid day.(little tongue in cheek). We don't even have TV in Mozambique.

PH and trackers are usually awake hours before a client preparing things, go to bed a lot later than the clients, making sure vehicles have been cleaned, animals correctly skinned and salted. On average few animals are taken in the mid day heat, there is nothing wrong to take an hour or so break in the middle of the day.

On average we are up at 4 in the morning in Mozambique and might only get back to camp at 9/10 in the evenings. It can take us up to 3 hours just to drive to certain areas. The heat in the mid day is just going to burn you out. The last thing you won't is a burnt out trackers or ph's.

In SA, it's 06h26 now and just starting to get light enough to hunt, most places in SA you within a 5 minute drive of the lodge to start hunting. What I am trying to say is that in certain countries you burn up a lot less energy hunting and less physical on the body.

Our shortest hunts are 10 days, you try hunting all day you going to be burnt out quickly. We have too much water, so blind hunting is out of the question. Big difference in sitting a cosy blind than out on the back of a vehicle in the baking sun.

There's a difference in a lazy ph and a ph that knows what is best for a successful hunt.
 
Lots of valid points throughout this thread for sure. Everyone has their own take on how things ought to go. To me it reinforces the idea that we all need to be reasonable in our expectations and communicate them clearly to the outfitter. This is the best way to help ensure your hunt will be a great one!
 
Simon, Divernhunter and I were talking about SA, I realize different areas can be different. I personally have had good action through out the day from blinds in SA and Namibia and would hate to miss a great opportunity because I'm sitting at the lodge. On my hunts there weren't super early hours and days like you spoke of.
 
@jeff , I was just simply pointing out different scenarios. Like I said, chances at mid day aren't the best, unless you controlling the area with unnatural factors.
 
I understand Simon, thanks for your input. On my Namibian hunt it was free range and a working cattle farm yet we had quite a bit of action midday from the hides just over water with no feed. The kudu in my avatar was taken about 2 pm
 
Namibia still has to be one of the best places to hunt free range big kudu. I flew back last week from Mozambique and did two quick bird groups. Two days for the one in the Eastern Cape, the land owner showed me a kudu they took last year, open no fences, 63 inches, second biggest recorded in EC.
 
Simon why do you think that kudu got so big?
 
Jeff, this was in Burgersdorp, quite a strange situation, as we all know SA is going through a bad drought. The farmer was showing me his cattle, they were in top condition, fat, was explaining to me, he uses zero licks or added feeds. We shot 18 warthog the one morning, the pigs had layers of fat, will post a pic later. To me the only answer, must be a good natural source of minerals in the soil.
 
As a hunter I would always expect the hunter day rates to be higher than the observer. This gives me incentive to talk Ann into going (although she hasn't needed much arm twisting). I travel full time for work, so I try to look at the day rates and see the value:

Room and Board with daily laundry
Guided Activities (shore excursions if you like cruises! such as photography, etc.)
Education on flora, fauna and indigenous animals (birds, mammals and reptiles)
Education on geological formations
etc, etc.

Oh, and hunting - guided.

Let's see a decent hotel (Hampton Inn, Hilton Garden Inn types) is about $125 a night, IRS per diem is about $40 / day plus lunch - say another $10. Rental car about $35 / day, laundry service $10 / day, that's over $200 / day without activities. If you pay a PH $50 / hr for 10 / hrs a day - that's $500 a day in addition. Plus the trackers / skinning guys, etc.

So, when plains game is quoted at $350 - 500 / day plus trophy fees, I see real value there. An extra $150 / day for an observer even better. Simon's offer of a few weeks back of Sable and plains game in remote Mozambique was I think around $450 / day. That's incredible value.

Hunting all day vs. break. Personally I like to have the break. I had mid-day breaks in Zimbabwe in 2011, Wyoming Elk in 2012, Antelope with my brothers in Wyoming a couple years and New Zealand last year. When I have a long day, getting the break helps me re-energize after lunch and before the afternoon / evening hunt. I never felt I was getting short changed.

John
 
I agree breaks are are a personal choice, but on more than one occasion when we drove up to the hide for the afternoon hunt we spooked target animals that we never had another chance at. We also spooked game that we couldn't see when we stepped out of the hide to leave in the mid morning.
 
Jeff,

I'm not a bow hunter but I have spooked deer when going back to my box blind when I hunted on a lease in Texas. So, I know where you are coming from.

John
 
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