New lion regulations USFWS

............... exotic wildlife born and held in captivity in the United States for conservation breeding purposes consistent with the ESA. ....................

Now I wonder how this all applies to captive bred wildlife in other countries such as lions in RSA?

I'm thinking this section only applies to US held CBW.

But, it will be interesting to see the treatment of CBW from RSA.
 
Personally, I don't make the connection between US Hunters go to Africa on a documented safari, and lion poaching. You would think if anything it would boost economy/revenue to further prevent poaching. Now if a large percentage of the hunters (i.e. Americans) missing from the equation... then the protection (from landowners) goes down if they are no longer a sought after trophy. Whatever, this is just another government agency having a pillow fight for the media's fodder. "Look at us, we're saving the planet".
 
Personally, I don't make the connection between US Hunters go to Africa on a documented safari, and lion poaching. ...................

The apparent rationale goes along the lines of leverage. :S Beat Dead Horse:
Take away their money :S Dollar: and you force them to act on a conservation plan.

Apparently the carnage that occurs in between the time the USFWS decides the acceptable plan is in place and the new restriction does not matter. :A Stretcher:

I guess those countries should just act more quickly. Right! :rolleyes:
 
The ass hat said importing sport trophies is a privilege and not a right.

When you hunt an animal you exchange currency for that privilege. The animal and parts thereof then becomes private property. Trophies are our personal property even if they reside outside of the United States. By not allowing us to import them the US Government is effectively taking from us the ability to use the property as we see fit. Wonder what the US Constitution says about that?

Fifth Amendment.

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation



So Dan Ashe, what would the founding fathers call it? A privilege or a right?

How much are you going to compensate us for effectively taking our trophies?




 
We really need to use this energy against these people. Get together as much reliable scientific data as possible, educate those in the gray, rally, all that good crap.
 
I'm thinking this section only applies to US held CBW.

But, it will be interesting to see the treatment of CBW from RSA.

No doubt on the first part. If I was a lawyer, I'm not but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I think I'd be inclined to make an argument of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
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No doubt on the first part. If I was a lawyer, I'm not but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I think I'd be inclined to make an argument of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

I am pretty sure the boys at USFWS will be having just about enough fun processing and rejecting your permits that they won't need to be more creative. :eek:

When they decide there is no conservation benefit from CBW (Lions in particular) then you are really in for it. :E Shocked:

The argument is all up hill from that point. :A Argue: :A Bang Head:
 
I am pretty sure the boys at USFWS will be having just about enough fun processing and rejecting your permits that they won't need to be more creative. :eek:

When they decide there is no conservation benefit from CBW (Lions in particular) then you are really in for it. :E Shocked:

The argument is all up hill from that point. :A Argue: :A Bang Head:

Likely. But you know I've got just a wee bit of spite in me and I'd encourage every hunter to find that in themselves. Back in the spring when the bullshit with the 4457's / EIN's / IRS / Trade Quizzes occurred, I quite accidentally ended up in my Congressman's office just a short drive from my home bending his ear and asking for his support which he duly gave. I think I shall make myself available to him again as he is also a hunter.

In the meantime, I'm quite determined that if I want to go lion hunting, then screw 'em, I'm going. I don't give a crap whether it's a "real" hunt in Tanzania or for a captive bred lion in RSA if it's still around. Will I be disappointed if I can't have my taxidermy, a little bit, but I can still have pictures. The Fed's can stick it right up their collective asses, they can't tell me I can't go and do something that is legal in another country just because they think it's wrong.

If prospective lion hunters allow this stop them, they win, you've allowed them to control you and you've allowed the lions to be eradicated just because you can't show off your trophy. To that I say, get over yourselves. Furthermore I believe, with all due respect, if you allow this to stop you then you've lost focus on what makes hunting whether it be for African lions, whitetail deer or squirrels worth doing in the first place. I don't have the resources to do a wild lion hunt in Tanzania and I guess it's easy for me to say as such, but if I did I truly believe I'd go regarldless of what Obama, Dan Ashe or some other shit for brains from the gov't thinks.

I hope that I will have the money to do a bull elephant hunt someday, perhaps it will be only for tuskless. If I do and Zim or Moz is the place I want to go, I'm going. Get some replicas made or just bring home the pics. They'll never be able to take the experience or the memories away.

Okay, rant over. I've re-read what I've typed here and I'm going to leave it as is. It was not my intent to offend, but I do feel very strongly about this situation. Do NOT let the gov't keep you from hunting Africa. Do NOT let them use your desire for the taxidermy to keep you from the experience of being out in the wilds of Africa experiencing the smells, sounds and sights she has to offer. I love my mounts, I truly do. I write this from my upstairs loft with my Shiras moose staring at me, a 6x6 elk above my head, a couple of Coues deer to the right of that bull that many will never even see much less hunt, a pair of Iowa pheasants further over and then of course my stairwell filled with my African mounts. I love it all, but it's not why I go hunting, the taxidermy serves only as a way to relive those memories.
 
I'll go shoot some non exportable lions. Getting my lioness was the biggest thrill of my life and the most humbling experience of my life. That is the only reason I will be heart broken is it was the most beautiful animal I have ever seen in my life. I have wrote my congress woman as well.

@PHOENIX PHIL if you decide to go I'll tag along
 
..................... it's not why I go hunting, the taxidermy serves only as a way to relive those memories.

BINGO.

Just going to change the trophy.
 
If I had a man cave, I'd enter it and shut the door....we are #$%&# the anti's got us cornered.
 
Likely. But you know I've got just a wee bit of spite in me and I'd encourage every hunter to find that in themselves. Back in the spring when the bullshit with the 4457's / EIN's / IRS / Trade Quizzes occurred, I quite accidentally ended up in my Congressman's office just a short drive from my home bending his ear and asking for his support which he duly gave. I think I shall make myself available to him again as he is also a hunter.

In the meantime, I'm quite determined that if I want to go lion hunting, then screw 'em, I'm going. I don't give a crap whether it's a "real" hunt in Tanzania or for a captive bred lion in RSA if it's still around. Will I be disappointed if I can't have my taxidermy, a little bit, but I can still have pictures. The Fed's can stick it right up their collective asses, they can't tell me I can't go and do something that is legal in another country just because they think it's wrong.

If prospective lion hunters allow this stop them, they win, you've allowed them to control you and you've allowed the lions to be eradicated just because you can't show off your trophy. To that I say, get over yourselves. Furthermore I believe, with all due respect, if you allow this to stop you then you've lost focus on what makes hunting whether it be for African lions, whitetail deer or squirrels worth doing in the first place. I don't have the resources to do a wild lion hunt in Tanzania and I guess it's easy for me to say as such, but if I did I truly believe I'd go regarldless of what Obama, Dan Ashe or some other shit for brains from the gov't thinks.

I hope that I will have the money to do a bull elephant hunt someday, perhaps it will be only for tuskless. If I do and Zim or Moz is the place I want to go, I'm going. Get some replicas made or just bring home the pics. They'll never be able to take the experience or the memories away.

Okay, rant over. I've re-read what I've typed here and I'm going to leave it as is. It was not my intent to offend, but I do feel very strongly about this situation. Do NOT let the gov't keep you from hunting Africa. Do NOT let them use your desire for the taxidermy to keep you from the experience of being out in the wilds of Africa experiencing the smells, sounds and sights she has to offer. I love my mounts, I truly do. I write this from my upstairs loft with my Shiras moose staring at me, a 6x6 elk above my head, a couple of Coues deer to the right of that bull that many will never even see much less hunt, a pair of Iowa pheasants further over and then of course my stairwell filled with my African mounts. I love it all, but it's not why I go hunting, the taxidermy serves only as a way to relive those memories.
You've nailed it Phil. I couldn't give two hoots about the "physical trophies", I'm in it for the experience; because I'm a hunter, not a collector. My very first safari in Tanzania had me waiting 5 years for my trophies and it did't bother me at all. (when they did arrive, the hair had slipped on everything except the white-bearded wildebeest and the buffalo!)
 
What can congress do to overturn this? This guy Ashe is a political appointee working on behalf of Obama. I wrote to my senators and congressman to do something about the ban on ivory trophies from Tanzania and Zimbabwe and only got replies from my senators. One of them talked about reforming the USFWS but nothing was done.
 
Didn't congress do something for Polar Bear imports not too long ago.

I will say the timing is bad for this as well as all offices to get an export permit (at least in South Africa) are closed till the 4th.
 
:A Thumbs Up:
No doubt on the first part. If I was a lawyer, I'm not but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, I think I'd be inclined to make an argument of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

LOL... :LOL:
 
What can congress do to overturn this? This guy Ashe is a political appointee working on behalf of Obama. I wrote to my senators and congressman to do something about the ban on ivory trophies from Tanzania and Zimbabwe and only got replies from my senators. One of them talked about reforming the USFWS but nothing was done.
If we can keep the pressure on then maybe they will. If we complain once and go away, so does our issue.
 
SCI Membership Alert on the FWS African lion listing

On December 21, 2015, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) announced a final rule to list African lions under the Endangered Species Act (ESA). The rule, which was published in the Federal Register on December 23, 2015 lists African lions as two separate subspecies – Panthera leo leo, found in western and central Africa, and Panthera leo melanochaita, found in southern and eastern Africa. Lions in western and central Africa will be listed as endangered, while southern and eastern Africa lions will be listed as threatened. The rule goes into effect on January 22, 2016.

Together with the listing rule, the FWS issued a special “4(d) rule” that will require ESA permits for the importation of threatened lions harvested from eastern and southern Africa. These permits will be required for all lions hunted on or after January 22, 2016. The FWS will need to make enhancement findings before they will issue any such permits. It is not yet clear when or how the FWS will issue these permits or make the required determination that hunting and subsequent importation enhances the survival of the species.

According to the FWS, lions hunted before January 22, 2016 will not need an ESA permit for importation. Hunters should ensure that they document the date when their lion was hunted. This can be with a hunting license, notarized letter, or similar official documentation that proves the lion was harvested before January 22, 2016.

Safari Club International is still in the process of reviewing the 230-page listing rule and will provide further information when our analysis is complete. The final rule and additional information can be found here.

In conjunction with the listing, the Director of the FWS, Dan Ashe, has issued Director’s Order 212, which instructs all FWS employees to deny permits to an individual who previously “has been assessed a civil penalty or convicted of any criminal provision of any statute or regulation relating to the activity for which the application is filed.” This provision has not been objectively defined and the administration could construe it as widely as possible as grounds for permit denial.

SCI President Larry Higgins today expressed his displeasure with the Obama Administration’s final listing rule and rule requiring permits to import lions. “Clearly, the White House is attempting to prevent U.S. hunters from engaging in lion hunting,” said Higgins. “We will look to challenge parts of the rule as appropriate, but this battle will not be resolved quickly. The Administration is imposing restrictions and obstacles that will not help lions, but will block U.S. hunters from participating in sustainable use conservation. Sadly, the rural communities of Africa that embrace hunting as part of their local economies will also suffer with the loss of U.S. hunters. As a result, local communities could lose their incentives to participate in lion conservation and as a result more lions will potentially die from poaching, animal control and retaliatory killings than hunters could ever take.”
 
Lion Hunting Specials on now until January 22, 2016
Get them while they are hot!
 
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