PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

Wheels said:

Or is it a very good fact. Without a profit motive, without laws allowing ownership of wildlife in RSA would there still be less than 1M animals in the country today like there was 50 years ago vs the 20+M that are alive now? Where would bontebok, black wildebeest, etc. be today without a "If it pays it stays" / profit motive?

Will there be abuses? Of Course. We are human beings after all. The "default mode" for a few of us will always be scum bucket.

Just think how much wildlife and hunters have benefited from the "If it pays it stays" mentality. Isn't it neat how the profit motive has conserved wildlife in South Africa.

Capitalism Rocks!

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And if it pays more to poach....... you get an ele ban.

Roy Sparks said:

Mike in most cases where high fences have gone up for game breeding purposes the motive has been money first and conservation second , have you given that a thought , or have you never heard farmers and hunters using the words " If it pays it stays " ? A very sad fact.

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Roy, I'm not so sure that this is a "very sad fact."

The fact that people are motivated by money is hardly news in the world, nor is it necessarily a bad thing. If animals have been brought back from the brink of extinction, if wildlife populations have increased dramatically, if cattle and sheep ranches have been returned to their former, natural state, all as a result of people trying to make money (or, in other words, a living), is that so bad? Is is unusual? Isn't that really how our "free market" system is supposed to work?

Finally, isn't this a perfect example of "if it pays, it stays?"

I, too, wish that we all acted out of pure and sincere motives, but perhaps I'm just a bit more pragmatic.

I must say i have read all this and find it sad to see such in fighting amonst all of us who should be shoulder to shoulder in the fight for the sport of hunting that we all love! I have hunted for more than a few decades and am 56 and have seen things that I never dreamed possible happening I NEVER THOUGHT EVER hunting and gun ownership would under attack like never before all around the world in my lifetime. So fighting amongst ourself over whats an ethical hunt is stupid. I take no negative stance against any and all fellow hunters. Taking some kind of moral high ground is fine but to take it so boldly publicly probably not in anyone ultimate best interest as the opposition will use it to advantage. Just wait till they say its all captive canned hunting because its behind a fence there Jaco with the high morals? You can yell and hoot and holler oh no its 10 millon acres or whatever you like the only thing the antis and the public will hear is captive inside a fence, and ban it just like those poor lions becasue the goal is to stop all hunting and ban all guns period. So save the moral high ground for private conversations over a beer dont give antis ammo! So I love ya all no matter how or what you hunt
Sorry jaco had to kinda poke those high morals a little , give you some gray hair and you may see the world differently, no harm meant

Well stated @Buckdog

Roy Sparks said:

So if PHASA says it is cool , upstanding and decides all has been corrected , then its okay to " sport hunt " captive bred lions ?
All stakeholders have met the requirements and so doing taking a lion from a small enclosure and releasing it into a bigger enclosure meeting all the pre requisites , then its acceptable ?

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I think this answers the questions.
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.

This would pretty well create a scenario where the animals could be as "wild" as possible in a country that has very little space.

After visiting Hluhluwe Umfolozi Park and seeing the "edges" of the park being grazed to dirt, these last strong holds of "wild" Africa are quickly going to be large fenced in areas. If, in fact, they are not already.


You still did not answer: What is "Canned" hunting?

How large a tract of land do you own?

BRICKBURN said:

I think this answers the questions.
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.

This would pretty well create a scenario where the animals could be as "wild" as possible in a country that has very little space.

After visiting Hluhluwe Umfolozi Park and seeing the "edges" of the park being grazed to dirt, these last strong holds of "wild" Africa are quickly going to be large fenced in areas. If, in fact, they are not already.


You still did not answer: What is "Canned" hunting?

How large a tract of land do you own?

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Brickburn my idea of canned is probably only my idea and what I find distasteful .

What I don't like is cramming game onto small high fenced properties and I have been told on Friday by our local nature department that 400 ha is the minimum size required.

In particular I don't like the practise of put and take , especially where introduced species do not occur endemically to a particular area and do not adapt well to the new habitat. In many cases only males of the species are introduced where if possible all should make at least SCI minimum. The objective of the landowner is to have these animals shot within the season they are released to minimize losses because they would in all probability die. Or it will be very expensive to artificially feed the animals because the habitat is otherwise unsuitable.

The above scenario is an example of what I deem canned hunting.

I do not own a farm.

An area I hunt on - where my hounds are stationed is 100 000 hectares in extent. Probably less than ten percent of the total area has high fences , where they do occur in some instances they are for protection of cultivated lands. For the most part the true endemic species there are free range as normal stock fences are not a factor to their movement.

enysse said:

I think a lot of people think there is an endless supply of money and the economy will sort things out....which it does one way or another. But if anyone thinks guys are going to pay regularly 5x what they are paying now for fenced lion hunts, I think your are drunk. I think the prices are HIGH ENOUGH and the market will not support it, even to DOUBLE the price. I may be wrong, but I doubt it.

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Agreed... the prices are already WAY OVER THE TOP and the guys just climbing in on the band wagon, as it were.
Everyone is entitled to a reasonable profit, but not to exaggerate...sustainable, LOWER cost hunting of this nature is the way to go, surely?

PHOENIX PHIL said:

And if it pays more to poach....... you get an ele ban.

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Agree completely Phil.


That's why the sale and trade in ivory needs to be legalized. Make property owners, conservancies, national parks, etc. the owners of the elephants that live there. (elephants are certainly more difficult than a territorial animal but a system could still be worked out) Then let the property owner profit from the ivory that the animals carry. If a cull needs to take place the owners get the funds to pay for the cull, maintain the property and make a profit. Sell trophy hunts. Prices for hunts will go up until it reaches an equilibrium. The property owner will protect the animals if it pays to protect their investment. People that have taken elephant and own the ivory now have a valuable asset that they could use as an investment and sell at will instead of it being worthless to them yet worth $800/lb in China.

Zimbabwe Parks Department is broke and employees aren't being paid on time yet they have 40-50,000 elephants in Hwange alone that has a carrying capacity of 1/3 that number. That population increases at a rate of 8% per year without poaching or die off due to food/water shortages. Harvest the 8% or 3,000 elephants per year with an average weight of 30 lbs of ivory per elephant at a wholesale cost of say $200 per pound. That is a sustainable $18m per year. Which has got to be a multiple of what Parks brings in now.

Wouldn't it be neat if the leaders of the world realized how markets work? The world would be a better place if all politicians were required to take a basic economics class. Instead the majority are lawyers.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" Shakespeare



Sorry, had to get one last rant in during November. Headed to the woods right now to do my Thoreau thing. Maybe get a deer in the process.

All the best.

Wheels said:

Agree completely Phil.


That's why the sale and trade in ivory needs to be legalized. Make property owners, conservancies, national parks, etc. the owners of the elephants that live there. (elephants are certainly more difficult than a territorial animal but a system could still be worked out) Then let the property owner profit from the ivory that the animals carry. If a cull needs to take place the owners get the funds to pay for the cull, maintain the property and make a profit. Sell trophy hunts. Prices for hunts will go up until it reaches an equilibrium. The property owner will protect the animals if it pays to protect their investment. People that have taken elephant and own the ivory now have a valuable asset that they could use as an investment and sell at will instead of it being worthless to them yet worth $800/lb in China.

Zimbabwe Parks Department is broke and employees aren't being paid on time yet they have 40-50,000 elephants in Hwange alone that has a carrying capacity of 1/3 that number. That population increases at a rate of 8% per year without poaching or die off due to food/water shortages. Harvest the 8% or 3,000 elephants per year with an average weight of 30 lbs of ivory per elephant at a wholesale cost of say $200 per pound. That is a sustainable $18m per year. Which has got to be a multiple of what Parks brings in now.

Wouldn't it be neat if the leaders of the world realized how markets work? The world would be a better place if all politicians were required to take a basic economics class. Instead the majority are lawyers.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" Shakespeare



Sorry, had to get one last rant in during November. Headed to the woods right now to do my Thoreau thing. Maybe get a deer in the process.

All the best.

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But it would feel so much better if those ele's died off on their own from disease and starvation which would never be reported and thus my feelings would not be hurt and my eyes would stay dry!

BRICKBURN said:

I think this answers the questions.
• PHASA supports the responsible hunting of all species in a sustainable, extensive wildlife system that can fend for themselves, provided that such species are hunted according to the laws of the land and the PHASA Code of Conduct.

This would pretty well create a scenario where the animals could be as "wild" as possible in a country that has very little space.

After visiting Hluhluwe Umfolozi Park and seeing the "edges" of the park being grazed to dirt, these last strong holds of "wild" Africa are quickly going to be large fenced in areas. If, in fact, they are not already.


You still did not answer: What is "Canned" hunting?

How large a tract of land do you own?

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Brickburn in the early 90's I already had reservations about the type of hunting being conducted in South Africa , also the directions I started getting from my employers ( outfitters ) as I was then freelance PH mostly did not sit well with me. So I looked at something " wilder " and more befitting of being called a hunt and that was to pursue leopard - that were born in the wild and lived beyond man made boundaries , coming and going as they pleased. That within the borders of south Africa and beyond.

Well into my career of pursuing leopard in Namibia the Namibian outfitter I hunted for contracted a hunt with a South African outfitter for a 14 day hunt for a trophy male leopard. By day two I noticed the SA outfitter was getting highly nervous , " agitated '' more like it. That evening he approached me and hinted " So is it happening tomorrow ? " , I said sure , same thing up early and scout for tracks. Then he said he thinks we should do it tomorrow because he has to get a bunch of other species still in SA with this client. I said that depended on what the day and luck offered , which is an uncertainty ! He then said , " So you don't have one ready for a release ? " , well I turned my back on him and told the outfitter it was time he had a chat with our distraught fellow outfitter.

Here in a beautiful area where game meandered freely through the Khomas Hochland which by all accounts is becoming a rare scenario in Southern Africa , where a PH and his client could really enjoy a hunt with a fair taste of sporting chance - we had a spoilt outfitter / ph from South Africa accustomed to shooting lion in a day or two , and shooting multiple species in a short period of time.

That is sad and is derived from being accustomed to canned hunting. Even more sad is the fact that many " sportsman " are quite comfortable to spend their dollars this way when there are still options available to hunt free range game.

The client landed up hunting for 8 days and his hunt was a success , but he hunted fair and square , what his Outfitter / PH had to endure was brought upon by himself through his customary practise. What we gave them was certainly not artificial or canned.

We aim to continue our best to offer this type of hunting here at home in the Eastern Cape.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

But it would feel so much better if those ele's died off on their own from disease and starvation which would never be reported and thus my feelings would not be hurt and my eyes would stay dry!

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............., and the example is there within Kenya's Tsavo National Park, the only Park in Africa where natural processes and vegetational progression has been allowed to proceed to a natural conclusion devoid of human intervention. In Tsavo elephant/vegetational cyclical patterns have been carefully monitored over time and a natural elephant die-off that took place in the early seventies has been scientifically documented. There man stood aside to look and learn rather than to crash in clumsily where angels feared to tread. THE ELEPHANT DEBATE
By Daphne Sheldrick D.B.E.: 1992 UNEP Global 500 Laureate

Unfortunately Botswana and western Zimbabwe are being set up for a Tsavo type event on a mega scale. What will happen when we get 2-3 years of drought in a row?


Then when there is a mass die-off and billion dollars of ivory on the table to support the reconstruction of the national parks system and ecosystem, they will go all Kuki Gallmann and Richard Leakey on it and burn the entire pile.

The antithesis of "It pays it stays" will be " We devalued it, it died". The epitaph of the elephant will be "We loved it to death". Mankind will have done the exact opposite of what should have been done once again, proving the saying, "Common sense isn't that common".

Wheels said:

............., and the example is there within Kenya's Tsavo National Park, the only Park in Africa where natural processes and vegetational progression has been allowed to proceed to a natural conclusion devoid of human intervention. In Tsavo elephant/vegetational cyclical patterns have been carefully monitored over time and a natural elephant die-off that took place in the early seventies has been scientifically documented. There man stood aside to look and learn rather than to crash in clumsily where angels feared to tread. THE ELEPHANT DEBATE
By Daphne Sheldrick D.B.E.: 1992 UNEP Global 500 Laureate

Unfortunately Botswana and western Zimbabwe are being set up for a Tsavo type event on a mega scale. What will happen when we get 2-3 years of drought in a row?


Then when there is a mass die-off and billion dollars of ivory on the table to support the reconstruction of the national parks system and ecosystem, they will go all Kuki Gallmann and Richard Leakey on it and burn the entire pile.

The antithesis of "It pays it stays" will be " We devalued it, it died". The epitaph of the elephant will be "We loved it to death". Mankind will have done the exact opposite of what should have been done once again, proving the saying, "Common sense isn't that common".

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Well now you've done it.......

PHOENIX PHIL said:

Well now you've done it.......

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Way to go @Wheels .... You made Phil cry.... Meanie!!!!

Roy Sparks said:

.................. That evening he approached me and hinted " So is it happening tomorrow ? " , .......... He then said , " So you don't have one ready for a release ? " , well I turned my back on him and told the outfitter it was time he had a chat with our distraught fellow outfitter.
.................

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Holy crap.
Glad you held out and hunted the Leopard your way.

I have heard some tales of Leopard, Tiger in India, etc. being released.
Some were even stiff when released.

Keep offering solutions and we'll find a way.

@Wheels I fear you may have summed up the situation way to close to a likely reality....

What are Grizzly hunts and brown bear hunts on quality areas selling for? (As close to guaranteed if possible)

What are moose (the best quality out there) selling for?

Bruce said:

Agreed... the prices are already WAY OVER THE TOP and the guys just climbing in on the band wagon, as it were.
Everyone is entitled to a reasonable profit, but not to exaggerate...sustainable, LOWER cost hunting of this nature is the way to go, surely?

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I believe that's the point to try and change the current nature of these hunts to a more acceptable and morally defence able fit.

Guys as long as there are guys willing to pay $20k for a white tail, there'll be guys paying $35 for lion

My best always

Jaco;
Is that your price?

? i am merely stating a fact, my pricing is irrelevant at this point in time.
My hunts vary and go to $65k

My best always

Someone has the answer already!?



Lew Harris Safaris are now proud to offer one of the only WILD Lion Hunting areas in South Africa. These hunts are conducted in the North-West Province and NO Canned or Hand Raised Lions are hunted in any way.