PHASA distances itself from Captive-bred Lion Hunting

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Maybe better use can be put to the "Red-Line" meat to feed these cats? Just an idea.

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Way to much common sense to that approach!

But also questions;
Are there regulations regarding the transport of that meat from one area to another? Or is the lion area within that zone?

Also, would that impede the "wilding" of these cats if they are still being fed?

ActionBob said:

Way to much common sense to that approach!

But also questions;
Are there regulations regarding the transport of that meat from one area to another? Or is the lion area within that zone?

Also, would that impede the "wilding" of these cats if they are still being fed?

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Those are great questions.

Wheels said:

Sounds like wisdom gained from experience.

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Yeah, Wheels, I'm talking with regards to figuring out a sustainable model for the Captive bred Lions breeders and in a way that would make it worth their while, without carrying over considerable consumer costs to the hunters.
The breeders need to make their money, but keeping the hunting of these lions accessible to the same market group it currently holds.
Hope that makes sense. Sometimes I re-read things I've written and wonder if someone might have slipped me roofie

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Nice idea Jaco. The problem I see, with only 4-8 areas, would be that there won't be enough areas to meet the demand. Like you mentioned in a previous post, if we try and get away from the "3-day hunt" scenario, we will have too many hunters wanting to hunt a lion, with not enough areas to house them on over let's say a 10 day hunt. This is accepting that only 1 hunter will occupy the area for the hunt. I think there is certainly substance to that suggestion.
Alternatively, we can just say, Screw it, those are the 4-8 accredited areas, so many "hunting days" are available per year, first come first serve, but like you say, then I can see a formidable price increase.

A wilding period of 6 months seems fair, but who will carry the losses for the plains game animals hunted by these cats during those 6 months? Maybe better use can be put to the "Red-Line" meat to feed these cats? Just an idea.

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Why wait , just shoot them in the housing area. A captive bred lion in a smaller housing area is just a little less confused than a captive bred lion in a big area.

If one had to do some calculations on some of the more prominent operations client and lion turn over they probably have a queue from the airport in JHB to the North West. The two day shuffle !!

ActionBob said:

Of course if he has to bear the cost of additional carry time, that changes the economics again.

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And the cost of a larger enclosure than is used today.

Roy Sparks said:

Why wait , just shoot them in the housing area. A captive bred lion in a smaller housing area is just a little less confused than a captive bred lion in a big area.

If one had to do some calculations on some of the more prominent operations client and lion turn over they probably have a queue from the airport in JHB to the North West. The two day shuffle !!

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Roy, I think you need to take some time and read through the entire thread. You missing a lot of points bud. You keep on pointing fingers at me as if I'm the one promoting captive bred Lion hunting. If you read properly, you will see me stating that I am not a fan of it, however I see bigger problems coming, so will rather look for a solution with others who realize this, than just give non-constructive comments on my own believes.

ActionBob said:

Victor that is an admirable string of thoughts and I would hope all hunters and businessmen could see the logic and strive to make it happen.

However I fear we will never get that far down the road... The thing that will bring your grand idea to a screeching halt is Western Governments imposing import bans on lion trophies. That will shut off the money and remove the engine that drives real Wildlife Conservation in Africa... I fear this recent PHASA decision in just going to be another reason for at least the USFWS to impose such a ban.

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You're right, an import ban will kill the industry stone dead. It may not even be a ban, a ban by airlines or shipping companies transporting trophies will achieve the same result. PHASA recently convinced SAA to lift a ban they imposed for a short period following Cecil. Management at SAA temporarily forgot that they're not a private company and are accountable to the taxpayers that bail them out every year. And also make good $ from flying in foreign hunters.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

No Phil, just trying to make a point that a lot more money is going to have to be made by the breeders by selling a lot fewer Lions. Whenever I think of a strategy, it always seems to break down when I get to the economics. Then, it' back to square one.

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Point taken, understood and I totally agree, particularly the last part of your post I put in bold. The economics of any proposed solution must be viable for it to be a valid solution. I must agree that if the result of new regulations if puts RSA lion hunting on par with wild lion hunting, it will end lion hunting in South Africa.

Jaco I've heard the drone of engines and squeaks of rusty hinged gates in the twilight hours after 24 bells and watched PH's and clients popping champagne at 10 am - just saying about the 90 odd hour rule !! For a few consecutive days , mind you.

Against the rules and defrauding customers.

It is not a good thing hiding behind the iron curtain - for us or the lions.

It is abusive of the " sport " , and does very little positive toward conservation.

It is a factory system that has been allowed because of the money it generates and that is where the primary interest lies - the argument for conservation connection related to captive bred lion hunting is merely a convenient scapegoat .

It would seem that the most frequent point raised by this thread in argument for and against is money.

Most of those heavily involved in the canned lion industry have probably made plenty of $$$'s to be able to totally discontinue the practise and live happily ever after.

Would they happily continue to be custodians to lions in the name of conservation and welfare if they could no longer make millions ? Even a mere handful of lions ?

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Roy, I think you need to take some time and read through the entire thread. You missing a lot of points bud. You keep on pointing fingers at me as if I'm the one promoting captive bred Lion hunting. If you read properly, you will see me stating that I am not a fan of it, however I see bigger problems coming, so will rather look for a solution with others who realize this, than just give non-constructive comments on my own believes.

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I just believe the fact that we are even discussing " sport hunting " of captive bred anything is horrifying - it should not be happening period. Very sorry to those who have spent so much investing in this deplorable mess.

Whatever awaits us , I wish us all the luck in the for the future.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Roy, not quite sure what this is about?

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Sorry that was not meant for you , it was meant as a response to comments made by Jaco concerning turn over time of lions.

It's always about the money, end of story. Yes, if there was no financial incentive for selling wildlife, the success of modern wildlife management would not be there. Yes, I absolutely love hunting, but realize it is not free. I have to work hundreds to thousands of hours to pay for hunting. It is always on my mind how much I have to work to pay for hunting..........I work 2 jobs right now to pay the bills. When prices increase significantly, it gives me a lot less incentive to hunt such animal. This is whether it's a blue duiker or a lion.

Very interesting discussion, in New Zealand the majority of trophy stags shot behind the wire on Safari parks are all captive bred to order & you hear about some shifty goings on from some operators, so RSA is not alone. And we won't mention helihunting!

Where's there a demand & big money involved.....

A question, how much on average does a captive bred lion hunt go for verse a free range wild one on average?

Roy Sparks said:

I just believe the fact that we are even discussing " sport hunting " of captive bred anything is horrifying - it should not be happening period. Very sorry to those who have spent so much investing in this deplorable mess.

Whatever awaits us , I wish us all the luck in the for the future.

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Roy, if by "captive bred" you include "captive raised", then you are looking to create real trouble for hunting, both in South Africa and Namibia, but also in the good old USA. Is that what you mean?

Hank2211 said:

Roy, if by "captive bred" you include "captive raised", then you are looking to create real trouble for hunting, both in South Africa and Namibia, but also in the good old USA. Is that what you mean?

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Boils down to possession Hank - when the high fences started going up it was the beginning of the mess.

Speaking for South Africa - it was not necessary from a conservation standpoint to translocate game from province to province especially prolific non endangered game. People just did so in order to have more , so they could sell more for $$$'s. In order to retain possession of these animals they put up the high fences which is mostly why hunting clients pay inflated prices for the game they hunt = cost of erecting high fences and price of feeding game that is not suitably adapting to a new environment and because of high mortality rate in capture , boma phase and relocating to an unsuitable enviroment.

If game remained where it endemically occurred in provinces this very artificial scenario would not be happening. Hunting clients serious about their passion would make it there business to find out what species occurred naturally in each province and arrange their hunt accordingly. They could be hunting free range game where it naturally occurred instead of e.g. shooting a springbuck being kept alive on feed in the mopani veld of Limpopo Province as opposed to hunting it in the Kalahari or Karoo.

We as hunters need to be accountable for our actions and stop looking for nonsense arguments and reasons for our behaviour when we all know the primary reason for our behaviour is fuelled by greed.

"when the high fences started going up it was the beginning of the mess."

"Roy, if by "captive bred" you include "captive raised", then you are looking to create real trouble for hunting, both in South Africa and Namibia, but also in the good old USA. Is that what you mean?"

ok @Roy Sparks so are you saying you are anti any place with a fence and they shouldnt be allowed? i wait for your reply before how shall we say going any further.......apologies if i dont respond immediately to your response, but in a minute i will be in and out of comms for a bit over a week. and @Hank2211 not only SA or USA but other places as well........there are other things in roys post ie
"In order to retain possession of these animals they put up the high fences"...............so roy what do you want reintroduce the animals to a place where they were poached out then let them all wander off into the surrounding villages and get poached out, or behind a fence on the property ? as i said i will wait for you response before i possibly have.... how shall we say a sense of humour failure.........................

spike.t said:

"when the high fences started going up it was the beginning of the mess."

"Roy, if by "captive bred" you include "captive raised", then you are looking to create real trouble for hunting, both in South Africa and Namibia, but also in the good old USA. Is that what you mean?"

ok @Roy Sparks so are you saying you are anti any place with a fence and they shouldnt be allowed? i wait for your reply before how shall we say going any further.......apologies if i dont respond immediately to your response, but in a minute i will be in and out of comms for a bit over a week. and @Hank2211 not only SA or USA but other places as well........there are other things in roys post ie
"In order to retain possession of these animals they put up the high fences"...............so roy what do you want reintroduce the animals to a place where they were poached out then let them all wander off into the surrounding villages and get poached out, or behind a fence on the property ? as i said i will wait for you response before i possibly have.... how shall we say a sense of humour failure.........................

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Mike in most cases where high fences have gone up for game breeding purposes the motive has been money first and conservation second , have you given that a thought , or have you never heard farmers and hunters using the words " If it pays it stays " ? A very sad fact.

I also mention that in South Africa for instance , it is hardly necessary to translocate species endemic in one province to a province in which they did not naturally occur.

We for instance really do not need to have waterbuck in the Eastern Cape or Blue Wildebees but they are here. What I was trying to imply was -

In general the motives of individuals differ and it is very sad to see the abuse of wildlife by members of wildlife ranching and those in the hunting industry especially since the advent of high fenced game ranches. Game has proliferated which is wonderful but the abuse continues to escalate. Conservation being used as the favourite scapegoat - even though lack of conscience , morals and ethics are a secondary issue which results in topics such as this.

We should be ashamed of our conduct ,

Most game species in South Africa have reached saturation point , well that's the way I see it , if parcels of game can stand around for weeks on end in boma's of game capture operations - how many die in this scenario ?? Why are they there so long = no market. Even Namibia has enough blesbuck and black wildebeest from South Africa.

Which gives rise to the invention of colour variants. Hopefully sparking a new trend and demand.

I know of one setup where mortality rate is so high they have a lion breeding setup near the boma's because of this.

Another scenario of abuse for instance is where truck loads of game are caught and translocated to another province only to be culled shortly after to feed a meat processing operation. Why could they simply not have been shot from the outset where they were captured instead of the stress and trauma of capture and transport. Because the outfitter that bought them sells them cheap as cull hunts - that is really what it is , cheapskate greed.

I do see reason for high fences in certain areas for the correct reasons , however I cannot stand them where it is not necessary especially so where if it were not for the indifference of neighbours they would in essence not be necessary.

I hear your argument and agree there is merit in certain scenario's , but in saying that I will happily say I hate fences period , high or low and I hate opening gates even more.

@Roy Sparks I am sure you are correct as far as a few unscrupulous operators... And unfortunately some South African Outfitters are a bit too careless with the truth when it comes to dealing with hunters.

But I do think you are painting with too wide a brush.

ActionBob said:

@Roy Sparks I am sure you are correct as far as a few unscrupulous operators... And unfortunately some South African Outfitters are a bit too careless with the truth when it comes to dealing with hunters.

But I do think you are painting with too wide a brush.

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Yes Bob perhaps I am using a wide brush but hell , I also share the panic of the threat we all face when I live right amongst this and see it first hand and matters do not seem to be improving.

Just today I was told an outfitter is using a drone to spot game - now he might easily argue that its to keep tabs on his precious game which may be partly true. But knowing the particular outfitter who condones the use of helicopters for hunting , I do not for one moment believe he will not employ his drone to make hunting easier for himself and clients. Hell man the poor animals are already contained behind a high fence and still drones have to be used - we need to seriously take stock of our behaviour before we all go off lamenting about the attacks from the anti hunters.

Certain behaviour and practices should just plain and simple not be tolerated by ourselves as stakeholders.

Roy Sparks said:

Mike in most cases where high fences have gone up for game breeding purposes the motive has been money first and conservation second , have you given that a thought , or have you never heard farmers and hunters using the words " If it pays it stays " ? A very sad fact.

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Or is it a very good fact. Without a profit motive, without laws allowing ownership of wildlife in RSA would there still be less than 1M animals in the country today like there was 50 years ago vs the 20+M that are alive now? Where would bontebok, black wildebeest, etc. be today without a "If it pays it stays" / profit motive?

Will there be abuses? Of Course. We are human beings after all. The "default mode" for a few of us will always be scum bucket.

Just think how much wildlife and hunters have benefited from the "If it pays it stays" mentality. Isn't it neat how the profit motive has conserved wildlife in South Africa.

Capitalism Rocks!