The bigger BP express cartridges

Good day fellow hunters,

Just wondered what the general feelings are about the old BPE rounds?? I have seen that they dont seem to do that well at auction and am rather tempted by one as a double. However I dont want to get somthing that I then wont be able to use on the Dark Continent . If there is anybody how uses them and reloads fir them etc I would love to hear from them.

Look forward to hearing from you all

norfolk shooter said:

Good day fellow hunters,

Just wondered what the general feelings are about the old BPE rounds?? I have seen that they dont seem to do that well at auction and am rather tempted by one as a double. However I dont want to get somthing that I then wont be able to use on the Dark Continent . If there is anybody how uses them and reloads fir them etc I would love to hear from them.

Look forward to hearing from you all

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Hi Norfolk Shooter,

Cal Pappas writes in this forum once in awhile and he is something of an expert on those rifles and cartridges, having authored more than one or two successful books on the subject of double rifles, including BP and Nitro alike.
Hopefully he will chime in.
Otherwise perhaps you can PM him on this subject.

As for my experience with them, it is restricted to having fired a very few of them on the two local rifle ranges here in Anchorage.
However, just judging by the published ballistics, as well as my shoulder's evaluation of the recoil, I would not hesitate to use a vintage .577 BPE on African buffalo.
And, I would prefer a double, so that I could give my animal the classic quick delivery / one-two punch of soft and solid before he ran off or worse.

In the .577 BPE, I would hope for a regulating load with either a soft lead bullet for my first shot and a hard cast, flat nose lead bullet, as my "solid", both weighing around 570 grains each.
Or, I'd want a regulating load with Woodleigh soft and solid, also around 570 grains each.
The BPE is not safe to shoot 570 gr bullets at 2125 to 2150 fps like the Nitro version is but, I would be surprised if at BPE velocity such a bulket would not do well on buffalo.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

I am also very interested in these guns. I hope to gain some knowledge off you fellas.

The nice thing with the 577 is it is on the obsolete calibre list in the UK

it depends what you want to use the double for... is this for PG or DG?

if this is for DG then i would say nothing smaller then the 577 BPE 3" (there are shorter BPE cartridges). if PG is on the menu then the 450's and 500's will work fine.

remember a 50 caliber black powder cartridge was considered a small bore back in its day.

-matt

I have a 500BPE double and it is a good shooter, I use the 440gr woodleigh and H4198 with fillers 1850fps and it will keep two rights and two lefts in 3in at 100 when I do my part. Would make a nice PG rifle. The old hammer guns just balance so well and are fun to shoot. I keep trying to get it on a pig hunt in Texas but work keeps getting in the way. Would also make a great dark timber Elk round. Also when you figure that the 50/70 and 45/70 440-500+gr at 1250FPS dropped american bison by the train load in the 1800's. You can get your self a 500BPE double for PG and a 577BPE BPE for buffalo for less than one modern double. Just stalk in under a 100 and put a right and left through the boiler room.

I would love to hear what the PH's have to say about the use of the older calibres. I cant see why one could not use a 500 or even a 450 BPE on DG. They must have done back in the old days?!

Velo and I disagree on this subject (respectfully!). The .577 BPE was never intended to be a buffalo or elephant cartridge. In the BP era it was considered a mid bore, and ideally suited for red stag and boar. It also worked well on African PG. And I suspect accounted for a lot deer and the occasional tiger in the Raj. The BP ten bore rifles were considered the all purpose African caliber which would handle buff and heart shots a elephant. Cal Pappas has indeed taken buffalo with the .577 BPE (hopefully he will weigh in - he will agree with Velo and disagree with me) and modern bullet construction means it is capable of doing so with the right shot presentation. But you are signing up for a lot of ifs. Sort of like taking a Winchester 44-40 in BP after whitetail. If everything goes right, it will kill a deer. If it doesn't you will lose him. Similar situation with buff, except the outcome could be someone gets hammered.

I have no experience with the .577BPE, but I have an old hunting book about 2 norwegians who hunted British East Africa from Dec. 1913 to Sept. 1914. They both bought Jeffery double rifles in .450-400 NE in London.

They used those rifles to good effect on both buffalo and elephant in the Marsabit mountain area.

They hunted together with an english officer who used a .577BPE double that refused to penetrate on buffalo...he had numerous lost animals.

Earlier this year I used my 450NE double on a nice cape buffalo. Put a 500gr swift A-Frame through the heart, 480gr CEB solid through both lungs and two ribs, and a 480gr CEB solid end to end right hip, liver, and right side lung. He travel 150yards from the point of my 1st and second shots both under 30 yards. It turned in the thicket and waited on my PH and Me. We started foward and the bull went down when we were around 50yards out. Two between the shoulders blades through the spine kept him down for good. Total elapsed time close to 5 minutes from impact of first shot till he was on the ground. I would use the 500BPE on PG and cats but never on a Buff or Elephant. There have been folks that have taken the big nasty pair with a 44MAG but you better have a good PH or 12 to back you up if everything doesn't go perfect.

Not much to write, really. In any hunting with any rifle is comes down to accurate shooting and good bullet construction. If those two aren't there, my .600 nitro would be worthless on game of any size. I would not hesitate taking a .500 or .577 to Africa or Australia. Yes there are better choices, but where does one draw the line. If one votes for a .300 Win Mag, another will say the .300 Wby mag is better, and it goes on and on. I really don't see how a .550 bpe with a 440-grain bullet at about 1800 fps won't put a buffalo down. I think it boils down to what type of arm we like to shoot and hunt with. For me, it is the vintage doubles and I'd almost rather not hunt if I can't use them. I've shot numerous buffalo (cape and water), hippo, and moose (plus plains game) with my .600. It was overkill to use it, but it was my choice and my liking.
Cal
PS. This past few months I did some experimenting with my 8-bore Jeffery box lock. Using Blue Dot powder and a 900-grain ball I equalled .600 nitro ballistics. Kicked like hell, but it was a fun experiment!

Before I start getting a lot of crap from you fine gents, I know of instances where buff were wounded by a .500 bpe and the stated fact is it is not enough rifle. But, Jack Lott put his name on Jim Watts .450 cartridge as he said his .458 Win. mag was not enough for buffalo. It was not the cartridge, it was the shooting.
Go easy on me fellas. I'm rather sensitive but I do have my therapist on speed dial.

Red Leg said:

Velo and I disagree on this subject (respectfully!). The .577 BPE was never intended to be a buffalo or elephant cartridge. In the BP era it was considered a mid bore, and ideally suited for red stag and boar. It also worked well on African PG. And I suspect accounted for a lot deer and the occasional tiger in the Raj. The BP ten bore rifles were considered the all purpose African caliber which would handle buff and heart shots a elephant. Cal Pappas has indeed taken buffalo with the .577 BPE (hopefully he will weigh in - he will agree with Velo and disagree with me) and modern bullet construction means it is capable of doing so with the right shot presentation. But you are signing up for a lot of ifs. Sort of like taking a Winchester 44-40 in BP after whitetail. If everything goes right, it will kill a deer. If it doesn't you will lose him. Similar situation with buff, except the outcome could be someone gets hammered.

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Hi Red Leg,

I totally respect your opinion because I know it is largely based on experience.
The BPE load I mentioned may not be legal for heavy DG in some countries anyway so therefore, my opinion is purely academic anyway.
Furthermore, even though I would not feel undergunned for buffalo, with a .577 BPE and proper composition 570 gr bullets (not the heaviest .58 caliber bullet out there I know), nonetheless I much rather would prefer at least a .400 NE 3" as my minimum cartridge in a double rifle on buffalo, to be sure of penetrating the vitals from any reasonable angle.
Again just IMO, the .577 BPE with a tough 570 gr bullet going about 1750 fps should do pretty well on a 1400 to 1800 pound animal.

Likewise, If Sir Samuel Baker or Arthur Neumann were here, no doubt they'd be typing like mad on this subject tonight, as they both used the 570 gr bullet of "hardened lead" at about 1750 fps, to shoot many elephant and buffalo alike, from their .577 BP doubles, if I am not mistaken (wouldn't be the first time I was mistaken).
Baker wrote of shooting lengthwise through Buffaloes with this "express load" in his .577 BP double.

Since this BPE thread was started, I did some more reading up on the subject and,
Find that many folks recommend against using modern bullets in original BP rifles.
Reportedly the rifling in the old softer steel barrels can be damaged from them.
So, I would be left with lead or paper patched lead, soft or somewhat hardened but, today's steel jacketed Woodleighs would be straight out.

As for elephant, I'm possibly never going to be able to afford one but, if I ever do manage to go for a tusk less or management one some year, I would not want to mess around with any BP caliber, of any sort.

Best regards,
Velo Dog.

Of course (to stir the pot further) I don't consider buffalo all that dangerous and the reports of their danger have been greatly stretched. Yes, charges to happen, but they run away when they see or smell humans and nearly all do so after being shot. Great fun to hunt, yes, but buffalo are cattle--not lions, elephants or brown bears (and these are only dangerous when up close. Assassinate from 2oo yards and nothing is dangerous.
Cal

Cal if you didn't stir the pot we would have to put you in a "I LOVE ME Jacket" and escort you to your speed dial therapist I like my 500BPE and it shoots well, however the current crop of bullets designed to expand at BPE velocity's (440gr Woodleigh) are a bit to fragile to penetrate the shoulder of a buff. However that being said that is purely my guess based on bullet testing in wet sawdust media I use as my standard test media. My rifle doesn't shoot hard cast worth a darn, and I haven't had time to work with paper patched (Which would be more appropriate for the time she was built) When I play with the ballistic calculator I get 3343 foot lbs of energy, Momentum 116, and TKO 59 for the 500 BPE. when I punch in a 375, 300 at 2600 the numbers are 5627, 139, 52. Guess it is my turn to stir the pot as I consider the 375 to be a great killing caliber but not a stopping caliber. I would love to have a nice double 8bore or 600NE but when I look at my toy fund it is wooofully inadequate to afford a proper overkill stopping rifle. So will have to settle for a mere 450NE as my stopping rifle. My .10 cents is hunt with what you enjoy hunting with, understand it's capabilities, shoot straight, and be prepared to sort things out if Mr Murphy shows up and things go sideways I love the exchange of ideas and experience on this board.

I have just two words shot placment

The answer, or part of it anyway, is found in the KO figure. Note where the .500 is!
You wish for an 8 or .600. Well, I have an 8 bore for sale that will push a 900-grain ball at .600 velocities.
It's a Jeffery box lock from 1896.
Cal

Cal I will ask what you are asking for the 8 Bore? (Is it one of the 8 bore featured in you Bore rifles book?) however having save for 2 years for our safari this year and buying two new motorcycles I doubt I can afford it But dreams are free

Yes, page 183. email me for details at <pappas@mtaonline.net>
Amazingly accurate with two bullet weights and a variety of black and smokeless loads, have brass and two moulds, ledger page, excellent bores, invisible rifling for both shot and ball. Patterns shot well (great turkey gun) and the rifling makes both a ball and conical shoot where you are aiming. 28K, partial trades considered for English doubles (I'm currently seeking 4), and time payments is acceptable. If you're free this weekend, Velo Dog is having an AH get together at his place. I'll be there. Come on up and take a few shots at my place. I know it's short notice, but…
Cal

cal pappas said:

Of course (to stir the pot further) I don't consider buffalo all that dangerous and the reports of their danger have been greatly stretched. Yes, charges to happen, but they run away when they see or smell humans and nearly all do so after being shot. Great fun to hunt, yes, but buffalo are cattle--not lions, elephants or brown bears (and these are only dangerous when up close. Assassinate from 2oo yards and nothing is dangerous.
Cal

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And yet more PH's have fallen and have/and are being mauled by buffalo than any other DG game every season, now if we are to consider the sheer number of Elle, leopard, lion and buff hunted every year across Southern Africa I don't suspect it to be the difference in numbers....

But could it be this very attitude of hunting buffalo is like shooting cattle?
I have only hunted just shy of a 100 buff in my career of 15 years but maybe Ryan Shallom can help out here, sorry Cal you are extremely knowledgeable and well respected (by myself) but I beg to differ.

My best always
OFF TOPIIIIC!