Trophy Debate

Every animal is a trophy, I think since Africa has a abundance of trophy animals the expectation is if you schedule enough time to hunt, you will shoot a trophy animal.

I'm more than comfortable with the kudu, Dobbler shot....especially since you are happy.
Maybe, we should just let this thread die.

But to answer your question Shoedog, I think it is part of the hunters responsibility to know what is young and what is old. Heck, I wondered what was a record book animal when I first started hunting Africa so I never passed on a once in a lifetime trophy. It does take a lot of time to educate one self to all the animals in Africa. And really I know nothing compared to most of the outfitters on this website. How can I......I don't live there, don't do it for a living. You have to have experience in the business to know most things.

SHOEDOG said:

So my question is how much responsibility falls to the hunter to judge,I assume none and was offered none which was fine to me.I enjoyed not deciding to be honest,no pressure on me, if we shot an animal we were not happy with I knew who to blame.

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In my opinion, the hunter has ZERO responsibility in deciding if an animal is a shooter. The PH alone makes that call, period.

Once the PH has decided that it is a legitimate mature animal and IS a shooter however; the client makes the final decision as to whether or not he wants to pull the trigger. I've passed up "shooters" because they didn't meet what I wanted, for whatever reason.

SHOEDOG said:

................

So my question is how much responsibility falls to the hunter to judge,I assume none and was offered none which was fine to me.I enjoyed not deciding to be honest,no pressure on me, if we shot an animal we were not happy with I knew who to blame.

What have you experienced?
Respectfully,
Shoedog

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What a great question.

Absolutely none. I have judged trophies for friends in the field in Africa. I could not believe how much pressure there was to get it right. (I felt for PH's that day)


I personally could not stand to leave all the trophy judgement up to someone else.
Therefore, I spent 10 days torturing myself in PH School in Limpopo.
I passed that course and became a complete pain in the ass for every PH I have hunted with from that point on. (Not really, it just added an element of testing me more. How big is that Impala? It was always a fun debate.)

I studied my ass off, spent 10 days, many hours a day judging horns out of a huge pile.
The worst one for me was always Kudu. They are still the toughest for me.


Trophy judgement on my Sable this year was the sum total of this:

I'm on the rifle pointing it toward the herd of Sable.
PH: "Not that one, the bigger one is to the left."
Me: I know. (Whether out loud or not, I can not recall)
Sable steps into the window.
Me: Nothing verbal.
PH: Nothing verbal.
Me: In my mind. "That's him". I looked at the arc and said that is long enough for me. I had 40 inches in my mind.
Bang.
There was no "go ahead and shoot". Not that I gave the PH time to do that.

I was happy to take responsibility for the trophy size. I was certain.
I am also pretty damn sure of the PH thought I was about to shoot something "too small" he would have spoken up again.


On my Black Wildebeest this year. I had not done enough studying.
The PH said, after it was on the ground. "I'm glad I did not make the call on that one"
He didn't, I did. Bosses were not hard. Oops. My screw up.
I made the call on length alone.
Still my trophy, all mine.
Next time.....
(None of this speaks to the hunt at all, by the way)

LivingTheDream said:

............. I disagree that you made choice, the PH has the right to say, no. .......

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I agree.
I would add that the PH has a duty to say No. It is part of the job.
That he obviously exercised with you before.

dobber said:

.......
The PH isn't here to represent himself, so asking him to reply won't happen. ...............

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No, the PH may not be, but the OUTFITTER is. Sadly silent....

For a moment let's disregard that Dobber's report and kudu picture started this thread. It seems to me that it boils down to a difference of opinion. Which, I doubt any ongoing debate is going to resolve. I believe the opinions fall into these two categories:

1) If a hunter and PH agree to shoot an animal, there is nothing wrong with having taken the animal regardless of age, size, trophy within the boundaries of the legal statutes in the country where the animal is being hunted.

vs.

2) A PH should not allow a hunter to shoot an animal that does not meet certain minimum age criteria regardless of the hunter's size, age or trophy requirements even if the legal statutes of the country where the animal is being hunted have no minimums.

Personally I'm in the first group. My hunting is all about the experience. There is a saying, "Don't pass up on day 1 what you would shoot on the last day."

John

I have had enough, if people can't see shooting a young immature bull is wrong, then something is wrong. With that said this is my last comment on AH. I wish the site all the best, enjoy hunting and post your reports.

The lucky thing about living in Africa, you may change your mind, just like our politicians, and no one would even notice.. I will voice my opinion about unethical hunting, whenever I see the need.

TMS said:

The lucky thing about living in Africa, you may change your mind, just like our politicians, and no one would even notice.. .

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TMS, I know there are many here besides me that are glad you changed your mind.

My dog says enough is enough...she can be a real bitch at times....well she is a female...

Big5 said:

TMS, I know there are many here besides me that are glad you changed your mind.

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I have to admit, I missed him more than I thought I would during that hour....

Time some people realize how they hunt is not the way everyone else hunts and that is all ok. You maybe the biggest baddest hunter or PH in the world but not always right because you think someone else took an animal you would not have. Living in africa gives no one the right to look down or to think there a better hunter then anyone else.

I will always remember my first PH Hannes, often telling me "Not this one, we can do better". Well, I am not one of the "tape measure gang", but his actions led me to shooting very nice mature trophies, like a 30 1/2 " Waterbuck.

He once gave me the "shoot" on an Impala in heavy brush, and when he saw it close, he said "my mistake, not good enough, this one is for free, let´s go look for a better one".

To me that is a Professional Hunter !

Billc, you never seem to learn when to stop putting your foot in the smelly stuff....

Peace was made....this is now about judging trophies, not personal nonsense..

TMS said:

Billc, you never seem to learn when to stop putting your foot in the smelly stuff....

Peace was made....this is now about judging trophies, not personal nonsense..

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Not sure how or way peace was made after all it was never about anything but the trophy right. Though a few pms I saw tell me the real story.

My comments are about hunting because a trophy can be different for each hunter. If you cant read then dont feel the need to comment to me. When I say hunters or ph I mean ALL have no right to judge any other hunter period.

I dont believe in telling other hunters what should be a trophy to them.
I dont believe in taking female animals but dont bash guys who do.
I dont believe in taking any animal just beause but dont bash guys who do if they have the tag to take that animal.
I dont believe in trashing any ones hunt report because I can. I do look at those who do trash someones else report and remove that outfitter from my list of who I want to hunt with. I know they dont want me as a client anyway.

As for my foot in the smelly stuff .I can tell you I am only following your tracks through it.

I just got sent an interesting insight from someone with a little experience.

Always love these kind of PM's Nothing like some facts to help cloud the discussion.

Have today it gave me some pause.

Hands down Immature Kudu.
Ridges are not well develop, shorter horn length and look at those bases, pretty darned smooth.



Look at the bases on these two guys.

Also, notice the left horn. Viewers right - on both animals seems to be a genetic anomaly. Wide cork screw and the right horn is more normal spiral.
Interesting, as both were likely shot on the exact same property!






One of those small details of trophy judging that we can all learn from.

Jaco taught me that on Sable some time ago. Look at the "secondary growth"
It is where the rings noticeably change on the bases of more mature Sable.

Apparently something similar must happen with Kudu.

You have to hate it when you learn something every day.

TMS said:

The lucky thing about living in Africa, you may change your mind, just like our politicians, and no one would even notice.. I will voice my opinion about unethical hunting, whenever I see the need.

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(my apologies to Vera and the ladies on the forum)

I'll go sexest for your benefit Simon: Did you borrow a dress from Vera, or what!

BRICKBURN said:

Interesting, as both were likely shot on the exact same property!

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I personally find that very interesting.