Trophy Debate

Bos en Dal Safaris said:

I am not taking any sides on this, i am very glad dobber had a great experience on his first trip to africa! And i believe him when he say he is happy with the Kudu!
Here is my opinion though, i have had a client shot a young imature kudu this year, he booked a cull hunt and wanted to shoot a kudu ( cull kudu is normaly female in my opinion as any kudu male has the ability to become a trophy) well on this hunt the client wanted a kudu bull, i told him upfront it is going to be a imature bull as i had bull in mind on a specific ranch!! He was happy with that as it was his first time in africa as well!!
The hunt went on and he got his cull kudu male!! Later at the taxidermy after seeing some of the mounts he told me size does make a difference... He is still happy with his first kudu and the skull mount will always have a special place in his house but he now has a perspective of what one can expect!! Well he is booked for next year and hopefulle we can vet him a trophy bull!!
I guess what i am saying is tbe bull dobber shot is definitely not a trophy animal and should not be charged as one!! The PH/ Outfitter should be able to tell the client this on his trip! Dobber will always see this kudu as a trophy because it was his first ever grey ghost, and he worker pretty darn hard for it by the looks of his legs!!! But still the animal in comparison to what is available is a cull animal!!
Just my 2 cents

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Bossie you did a fantastic job of saying what I was tryin to say. I agree 100%

Gerrit, I don't think it is about taking sides. It's about preserving kudu, you had a specific bull you wanted to cull, total different story.

My humble opinion on this matter is to address general sport hunting opportunities in the field rather than who has harvested what.

I have long felt that sport hunting is just that; 'hunting'. It's not to be confused with entering a grocery market and pulling a box of corn flakes from the shelf. While out hunting one must be prepared for a variety of situations and outcomes.

I can think of several hunts where I've come across;
- Numerous mature 'book' quality animals
- Mature 'non-book' animals
- Immature animals only
- No animals, or no opportunities to shoot within the limitations of my ability.

Because of the many variables and challenges that can be encountered in the field I've come home without game in hand many times over the years. That being said, I have no difficulty accepting such a situation because I understand that there are no harvest guarantees when it comes to ethical sport hunting. What I do have difficulty understanding is how any reasonable person would believe that all hunts must end with an animal on the ground. There's a reason it's called sport 'hunting' rather than shooting.

My personal belief is that a sport hunter should be looking for a mature animal to harvest. I also believe a sport hunter should be prepared to accept the fact that the hunt may end without firing a shot. Just because a hunt comes down to the last day is no reason to feel you must shoot at an immature animal, or to take a shot beyond what you know is your level of experience.

Just my two cents. To each his own.

Rhinoster Hoek Safaris said:

This is what we have in the Eastern Cape. No restrictions on size or weight.

PART VI - Professional Hunters and Hunting Contractors
(Substituted by PN153/1984)
51.
(c) "trophy"means the carcase of a wild animal hunted by a client which he retains as a momento of his hunting success

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I understand there is absolutely nothing illegal about this hunt or in taking this animal.

I replied only as a point of reference to relate the question.
Should the PH have said yes. In Namibia the PH would have been required to say NO.
Point for discussion.

I am new but have been reading from the sidelines for a while now.i have grown up on a game ranch in the eastern cape and know a bit about kudu and game ranch management.i find this all very disturbing and upsetting in many respects,im my opinion,and from what I see we are all allowed an opinion,although it will be challenged by those who say this forum for sharing an opinion if the opinion differs from theis,this too is acceptable,but it seems to me some arebusing it to show off thwir knowledge or indeed lack there of.i am not aure where the info that a kudu of 5 years of age will roughly be 49 inches was obtained,but it is incorrect,respect a landowner and ranch managers opinion on his own animals in his own area,just as they will respect your opinion of gamenin your respective areas.not all information taken out a text book about an animal in a specific region is correct.
Regards

I have a simple mind, so all of this seems simple to me.

If the client had already seen other bulls that were larger, and knew what he was getting when he pulled the trigger, and it made him happy, then this qualifies as a trophy and he should pay full price. After all, he left happy.

I would not have killed the bull, and many others here wouldn't, but I would wager that every hunter on this thread has killed an animal that someone else would have looked at as inferior.

As far as the PH choosing to let the hunter shoot, that is totally between the PH and the hunter. I have to assume the PH, safari operator, and landowner know their property better than anyone else. If there are no rules or standards that are enforced by the government, then it is totally their discretion and the client's as to what should be killed.

I also don't see how letting someone kill a smaller animal makes PH's in general look bad, as was implied in another post. When I see a picture of a smaller animal, I just assume that the hunter knew what he was getting, and he's happy with it. I don't assume anything outside of that.

I've only been on one safari, and I had a great PH. I left happy. It sounds like this hunter left happy, and is already planning to go back, just like I am. I guess at the end of the day, that's all that matters. I certainly see both sides of the debate, but it really seems like making a mountain out of a molehill to me.

Congrats to the hunter on a successful and satisfying trip.

Switch to whitetail for a moment, a bit about how i hunt/what i hunt. I have shot many deer since i started hunting, triple digits because the groups i hunted with was with the "if its brown its down" mentality, i have evolved from them days.
I bought my own property, set stands, and sat from sun up to sun down for 7 straight days, nothing mature, made the 16hr drive home and returned 2 weeks later where i sat for 6 more days from sun up to sun down. I never touched the trigger, didn't see a mature deer i wanted to take, but was seeing 20+ deer a day (thats nearly 130 hours in the stand). Last year i shot a 7 yr old, we had history with 5 years of pictures

Was this the biggest, second biggest, heck it wasn't likely the 20th biggest Kudu i saw, if i had said since day one i wanted a 50" bull and the PH said shoot, then i would be ticked off, likely not paid, never to return, report from hell posted. Yes it was a young bull, and in another area where game wasn't as plentiful i can see everyones points. The problem is you aren't comparing apples to apples, so opinions can't be measured the same

My next hunt, i want a 45" or bigger, i will expect that, i will hold the PH to within inches of that mark, i will also be paying accordingly and tipping accordingly to the bench mark.

Dobber I don't think anyone is talking bad about you or anything you did. I know I'm certainly not. I'm happy for you and very glad you had a wonderful trip. I think what people are trying to say is that it's the outfitters responsibility to ensure appropriate caliber animals are shot for a given hunt. As an outfitter I know what it's like to have clients want to shoot certain animals for one reason or another. It's my job to make sure that the client gets what he expects or better and often my standards of what is acceptable is much higher than my clients. This isn't meant as I'm smarter or better it just means that I know when we can do better and I want each and every client to take an amazing trophy. Not that your kudu isn't. I just know that I can do better for my client and it's my job to make it happen. Letting a client pop an animal just because it presented a shot opportunity isn't always the best way and often is just the easy way out. ( on the outfitters part not the clients). I think many of us feel that you were short changed and that's where the concerns are coming from.

I agree, and will say that this wasn't the case, i wasn't short changed as i made my expectations known.
As for people feeling bad for me (not my words, someone else) please don't, at least not this time, next time when i plan the hunt and those kind souls pay for my hunt, feel free to think i was short changed and let the complaints rein
Without getting into details about what i paid, or didn't pay, because that is between me and the outfitter.

Had my shooting been better the day before, this whole discussion could be mute, i expected and deserved criticism about my shooting and how the client needs to be better prepared, that to me is more an issue than the age of an animal, which i did get some heat about (and rightly so) on a different forum where i posted the same report

Sir if you are happy then that is the most important thing. As I said before I think it's great that you had a great time. As far as what you paid that is absolutely none of my business as I have said before. Those of us that are voicing concerns are doing so with the best intentions and are not judging you. All of this being said, if your happy then I'm happy and my opinions matter not one bit. Of course you did take some fine animals and had an amazing experience. Africa is a million times better than anyone could ever describe it. My hope is that you have a swift and safe return to Africa.

billc said:

The same time as this report is going there is another report were a guy is taking a beating from the outfitter over thousands of dollars. No outrage from tex84,royal,tms or tootabi valley over on that thread. .

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Could it be that in one thread there is photographic evidence?

The other thread, it seems like evidence is being gathered. (Sorry, I have been away from the computer and am not sure where it stands) If there is a preponderance of the evidence, it is a good bet some comments will be posted.

billc said:

. But then I am to believe the attack on dobbers thread is only about the age of the kudu..

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Possibly. The kudu may be the youngest "trophy", many have ever seen posted on AH.


Possibly not. If this trophy had been taken by another outfitter, there probably would have been comments made. Would the comments have been this strong? Probably not. Why? In the past two years have any other outfitters integrity been called into question multiple times here on AH? There is a tendency in small groups of people to police themselves and watch out for each other.

billc said:

Would I have taken the kudu in question no I would not. ......Would it have been better to let the kudu walk well yes it would have been. .

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+1

billc said:

Do I think dobber was take advantage of not at all.

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In a nutshell, this question is probably the reason for this thread.

billc said:

Brickburn thanks for moving what you did as dobber deserve to have his report the way he wants it to be public forum or not lets have some respect for others who share there hunts.

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+1

Dobber, bless you! Thank you for the report. I hope you finish it. I have enjoyed reading it. I give you a tremendous amount of credit sticking around and posting your convictions. I have seen others become embarrassed, leave a forum and never come back. You have character! I would consider myself fortunate if I ever have the opportunity to share a campfire with you.



Landowners should be allowed to manage the game on their properties the way they want. There is a difference between a game farm in RSA and an open area in the Selous, where it is the PH/outfitters responsibility to take mature animals.


Conversely, it is the outfitters/PH's responsibility to get the best trophy animal available if it is a trophy hunt. If it is not a trophy animal it should be charged accordingly.

Wheels said:

Could it be that in one thread there is photographic evidence?

The other thread, it seems like evidence is being gathered. (Sorry, I have been away from the computer and am not sure where it stands) If there is a preponderance of the evidence, it is a good bet some comments will be posted.




Possibly. The kudu may be the youngest "trophy", many have ever seen posted on AH.


Possibly not. If this trophy had been taken by another outfitter, there probably would have been comments made. Would the comments have been this strong? Probably not. Why? In the past two years have any other outfitters integrity been called into question multiple times here on AH? There is a tendency in small groups of people to police themselves and watch out for each other.




+1




In a nutshell, this question is probably the reason for this thread.





+1

Dobber, bless you! Thank you for the report. I hope you finish it. I have enjoyed reading it. I give you a tremendous amount of credit sticking around and posting your convictions. I have seen others become embarrassed, leave a forum and never come back. You have character! I would consider myself fortunate if I ever have the opportunity to share a campfire with you.



Landowners should be allowed to manage the game on their properties the way they want. There is a difference between a game farm in RSA and an open area in the Selous, where it is the PH/outfitters responsibility to take mature animals.


Conversely, it is the outfitters/PH's responsibility to get the best trophy animal available if it is a trophy hunt. If it is not a trophy animal it should be charged accordingly.

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+1

Wheels said:

Possibly not. If this trophy had been taken by another outfitter, there probably would have been comments made. Would the comments have been this strong? Probably not. Why? In the past two years have any other outfitters integrity been called into question multiple times here on AH? There is a tendency in small groups of people to police themselves and watch out for each other.

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This is a bunch of crap. There are a few people here that seem to take a shot at the outfitter whenever they can for whatever reason. That's bad enough but what upsets me are the shots people are taking on the land owner for this. I have had the privilege to meet Warren in person and let me tell you he is an upstanding individual and from what I could tell really knows what he is doing.

I know others won't agree but I'd be happy with a kudu like what @dobber got. Sure, I would want something bigger but that's why it's a trophy, something exceptional. For me it will always be about the hunt, not the measurements.

brushmore said:

I know others won't agree but I'd be happy with a kudu like what @dobber got. Sure, I would want something bigger but that's why it's a trophy, something exceptional. For me it will always be about the hunt, not the measurements.

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That's why I would go home empty handed sometimes. I'm not going to just shoot an immature animal because I found nothing better. If you don't find the trophy you are after, don't shoot.

This is what I was told by my PH on my first Safari (a bow hunt). Kudu was my main trophy. I was told I couldn't shoot one unless it's tips were at least pointing in(could not be pointing back). On the third day one came in that had points pointing in he said I could shoot that one it had a great three strip chest mane and looked great to me. I was thrilled with it looked great and like what someone said earlier everyone that has seen it in my home thinks it is a monster. One of the other hunters in camp wanted to measure it after reading about 60" etc it measured in at 45". A little disappointed but it is at least a 1 1/2 curl. My memories of the hunt and getting my dream trophy home is what counts.

Bhfs300 said:

his is what I was told by my PH on my first Safari (a bow hunt). Kudu was my main trophy. I was told I couldn't shoot one unless it's tips were at least pointing in(could not be pointing back).

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That is the point of the thread. He didn't want a submature bull killed. It doesn't need to be 60" but mature.

brushmore said:

This is a bunch of crap............ That's bad enough but what upsets me are the shots people are taking on the land owner for this. ....

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You quote my post yet I don't believe I have said anything negative about the landowner. The only thing I said about the landowner is:

Wheels said:

Landowners should be allowed to manage the game on their properties the way they want. There is a difference between a game farm in RSA and an open area in the Selous, where it is the PH/outfitters responsibility to take mature animals.

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I am confused. Am I missing something?

brushmore said:

This is a bunch of crap. There are a few people here that seem to take a shot at the outfitter whenever they can for whatever reason....... .

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Again, you quote my post when you state this.


If you consider the above post to be a shot at the outfitter, then you would probably consider it the second shot that I have taken at this outfitter over three threads concerning three topics covering hundreds of posts over two years.

Does two possibly critical posts constitute taking a shot "whenever they can for whatever reason"?

During the last two years has there been another outfitter other than the one we are talking about to have three threads questioning his ethics or abilities here on AH?

What about two threads?

Okay, what about one thread?

Why out of the dozens of outfitters on AH that are contributing members does one outfitter have three critical threads and no one else has any? (Possibly I am missing something. Alzheimer's is a bummer.)

Is it possible that an outfitters previous issues contribute to this thread.? Yes.

Is it possible that some of the people posting on this thread care about AH and don't want to see its reputation or members soiled?

gizmo said:

That is the point of the thread. He didn't want a submature bull killed. It doesn't need to be 60" but mature.

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That's where I think the confusion here might be. Some people seem to be confusing inches with maturity. They don't have to make book, but at least hunt for mature animals.

Wheels said:

Is it possible that some of the people posting on this thread care about AH and don't want to see its reputation or members soiled?

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Yes.