Possible 404 Jeffery Project

Custom · Aug 17, 2015

My recent buff hunt has me convinced that I will do that again. Hell, I'd go back next week if I could! Anyway, I used my Kimber Caprivi in 375 H & H with fine results. However, I now have the little guy on my shoulder, whispering in my ear, saying I should consider one of the 40s. Of course I don't need it, but what a classic round! Anyway, I have a 458 wm in a Whitworth that I am going to sell. It is just too much recoil for me to call fun. Lots of manufacturers offer 416s (Rigby or Rem), but the recoil table shows them much closer to the 458 than the 375, while the 404 seems to be closer to the 375. And, there is just something about the 404 Jeffery. I have looked around and there just aren't many factory options. CZ offers one in the 550, but I am not a big fan of the long barrel and factory stock configuration (YMMV). Wayne at AHR seemingly does a fine job with his custom guns and he offers it in 404 (has on on his web site now). I also understand it is pretty straightforward to convert an model 70 action in 300 rum to 404. I can lay my hands on one of those actions for a decent price and then take my time sourcing the build. I'm not interested in buying an antique, I want a modern gun that works. Or, I could just buck up and buy a Kimber in 416 rem since I like my 375. Thoughts?

AZDAVE · Aug 17, 2015

404 Jeffrey!!!
Send the action to Pac-Nor and they will rebarrel it for you.

I just did that with a Ruger RMS 375HH to 404 Jeff

Custom · Aug 17, 2015

Thanks, Dave. I saw your thread, it was one that encouraged me down this path. The Model 70 conversion seems like the easiest route, short of buying one of Wayne's custom jobs. However, I am interested in opinions and paths others have taken.

matt85 · Aug 17, 2015

the 416 RM will have slightly less recoil then the 404 Jeffery if both cartridges are loaded to the same velocity and are fired from the same gun. so if your going for a 400gr bullet at 2300fps then the 416 RM is the better choice when it comes to recoil. plus the Winchester M70 Safari is an outstanding rifle for the money!

on ther other hand, the 404 Jeffery has much more history behind it. if your goal is a classic Safari cartridge then either the 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby would suit you well.

your 458 WM was uncomfortable because:
- you werent using proper big bore shooting technique. (most common problem)
- the rifle was too light.
- the stock didnt fit you properly.

i have done plenty of tests with very small inexperienced people shooting my 416 RM or my 505 Gibbs. a 120 pound teenage boy was able to fire a 525gr bullet at 2300fps from my Gibbs without issue once he was taught the proper technique. i also had a 90 pound girl shoot my 416 RM with ease for a number of shots (she loved it) once she was taught proper technique. in both cases the recoil numbers made up most/all of the body weight of the shooter.

-matt

Custom · Aug 17, 2015

Thanks, Matt. I am surprised regarding recoil between the 404 and 416, but maybe that is because (I think) factory loads for the 416 RM are hotter. With respect to the 458, it is too light. The gun weighs 8.5 lbs unscoped. I think my technique is OK as I can shoot my Kimber Caprivi all day long, though I realize the recoil is much less. One of my alternatives would be to buy a factory 416, and the Winchester or Kimber would be at the top of my list.

matt85 · Aug 17, 2015

depends on the factory load. the 416 RM has slightly less case capacity then the 404 Jeffery which means it takes slighty more powder to get the same speed out of the 404 Jeffery. otherwise the two cartridges are pretty similar in that they throw a 400gr bullet at 2300fps. i think some 416 RM ammunition is loaded to 2400fps and some 404 Jeffery ammunition is loaded to around 2200fps which would lead to people thinking the 404 Jeffery has less recoil.

both cartridges will kill anything that breathes air with roughly the same efficiency (if loaded to the same speeds). you really cant go wrong with any of them.

if recoil is a concern then make sure your finished weight on your rifle (rifle + rings + scope) is around 10.5 pounds and the LOP is suitable to your body. this will insure plenty of comfort when shooting.

-matt

bassasdaindia · Aug 17, 2015

matt85 said:
the 416 RM will have slightly less recoil then the 404 Jeffery if both cartridges are loaded to the same velocity and are fired from the same gun. so if your going for a 400gr bullet at 2300fps then the 416 RM is the better choice when it comes to recoil. plus the Winchester M70 Safari is an outstanding rifle for the money!

on ther other hand, the 404 Jeffery has much more history behind it. if your goal is a classic Safari cartridge then either the 404 Jeffery or 416 Rigby would suit you well.

-matt

this part I agree with @matt85 , I have all 3 and as much as I love my 404 , I most enjoy hunting with my M70 416 Remington, I find its recoil to be almost the same as my 375 with a 350g @ 2300

PHOENIX PHIL · Aug 17, 2015

The one time I had the privilege to shoot a 404J I loved it. If you can actually lay your hands on a M70 in .300RUM that is certainly the way I'd go, but I'm a M70 nut. Finding one may be quite the challenge. I've never owned one of Wayne's offerings, but having read so many positive reports about his offerings that would be my secondary route and just behind the M70 option.

Custom · Aug 17, 2015

Phil, I can lay my hands on an m70 in 300 rum. I'm tempted to buy it and sort this out later as they don't show up often. One question for the m70 nuts or gunsmiths, though. One advantage to the Kimber or CZ is mag capacity. The Kimber holds four down and the CZ at least that, while the standard m70 is three. Are extended capacity mags available for the Winnie if I am looking at a custom stock?

PHOENIX PHIL · Aug 17, 2015

Custom said:
Phil, I can lay my hands on an m70 in 300 rum. I'm tempted to buy it and sort this out later as they don't show up often. One question for the m70 nuts or gunsmiths, though. One advantage to the Kimber or CZ is mag capacity. The Kimber holds four down and the CZ at least that, while the standard m70 is three. Are extended capacity mags available for the Winnie if I am looking at a custom stock?

I believe you can get one from Duane Wiebe, here is his website:

http://www.customgunandrifle.com/

ActionBob · Aug 17, 2015

Ok guys;
The important part to this discussion is a M70 will hold 3 404 Jeff cartridges down in the box. I just pulled out my M70 416 rem mag and tried it. And a CZ does hold 5. I was a little concerned as the 404 is a tad fatter than the 375 H&H class of cartriges.

I do have a CZ I just could not resist buying and picked up tonight. I was serious enough that I have some ammo on hand and even though this one was supposedly re-chambered and re-bored by the factory (wonder if it was really the custom shop?) from a 375 H&H when it was new... pretty difficult to tell as it is labeled correctly. I wonder if they re-bored or re-barreled?

And thanks AZDAVE I love those RSM's and you are showing me the path to a great one is 404 Jeffrey! Can't tell you how excited I am that...

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski · Aug 17, 2015

Very good idea Custom.
I use Mauser m98 in 404Jeffery.Excellent caliber.
Good luck and all the best.
Witold

Custom · Aug 18, 2015

OK, I pulled the trigger on the m70 300 rum. And so now the journey begins.......

Custom · Aug 18, 2015

Just called my 'smith. He is on board and excited about the project. Woo Hoo, here we go!

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski · Aug 18, 2015

Congrats and good luck.
Witold

enysse · Aug 18, 2015

Good luck, I hope it turns out as planned!

PHOENIX PHIL · Aug 18, 2015

Custom said:
Just called my 'smith. He is on board and excited about the project. Woo Hoo, here we go!

Outstanding, looking forward to following the progress! I looked for a long time for a M70 in .300RUM and couldn't find one. I really really wanted to do this exact project.

Custom · Aug 19, 2015

I will post as it progresses.

Custom · Aug 19, 2015

One of the big decisions I will have to make is whether to try and find a Safari Express or Super Express stock for it or go custom. I saw buckstix post in this section about the Custom African Express he found at Cabelas. Now THAT is what I have in mind for a stock. I'm afraid to guess what it would cost to replicate something similar, though.

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski · Aug 19, 2015

Such things Have company Recknagel Custom.
www.recknagel.de
Good luck and all the best.
Witold

Possible 404 Jeffery Project

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AZDAVE

Custom

matt85

Custom

matt85

bassasdaindia

PHOENIX PHIL

Custom

PHOENIX PHIL

ActionBob

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski

Custom

Custom

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski

enysse

PHOENIX PHIL

Custom

Custom

Witold KrzyÅ¼anowski

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