Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

Everyone keeps saying wait to see what the truth and facts are before condemning those in question, but do you really believe that the if this was indeed a legitimate, legally conducted hunt, that information will come to light and prevail in the media? I for one say hell freaking no it won't. Especially with Odumbo's administration getting involved. The ball game is over before it's been played. Lion imports will be banned to the US, just for they can beat their chest to say look what we have done in the name of Cecil the great. Meanwhile they sit on their hands and do nothing and dare not to mention that Asian countries are mostly behind the poaching of elephants and rhino.

As for SCI being "first for hunters", more like, first to abandon ship.

I do know if I was the Dr. I would damn sure be carrying my side arm. I wonder if someone attacks him if it would be considered a hate crime? And where is the enforcement of laws when it comes to threatening someone's life? I guess they don't apply in a situation where so many blinded sheep are following the wolf.
 
Several years ago there was a case involving a lion fondly known as Leonardo that very closely paralleled the situation with Cecil.

It's about the criminal charges that were laid against PH Keith Wright following a high-profile investigation by the Namibia Ministry of Environment and Tourism into the killing of the collared lion known as 'Leonardo' . . . . as with 'Cecil', give the animal a cuddly pet name and a frenzy can be more easily incited.

As a result of the various allegations Keith and his family received numerous threats much like what is now happening with Palmer. Keith is a personal friend of mine so even though the 'reports' of impropriety seemed insurmountable on the surface I decided to contact him for his side of the story. Well, guess what? It turned out that Keith had all required authorization and paperwork in order contrary to all claims otherwise.

Keith later forwarded copies of paperwork that exonerated him from any wrongdoing. An excerpt from the NAPHA paperwork reads as follows;

"After the DC hearing on the 27 September 2010 and the evidence presented, it seems that all legal requirements were met to hunt the lion. We regret that such a public outcry was initiated, based on apparent wrong assumptions/evidence.

The Exco of NAPHA thus has decided to stand by you and support you in your efforts to publicly rectify the apparent wrong doing, i.e. if you so desire we will be present at your indicated press conference."


Of course the entire matter was subsequently dropped with many apologies following. Unfortunately, the damage to Keith's reputation and business had already been done and most of the critics didn't stick around long enough to view the final outcome. What a shame. Jumping the gun on such matters can have consequences.

If interested you can read the thread here on an old AH forum topic. You can also see how some people wanted heads to roll, facts be damned. Fortunately it got nipped in the bud fairly quickly on this site.

Lion Killer to Be Charged in Namibia
Discussion in 'News & Announcements' - May 12, 2010

I don't think that I've made any posts about conclusions on what happened in all of this, but I must admit that in my mind and with the shadow of a previous problem with a bear hunt, I have at least had skeptical thoughts regarding the dentist. This combined with SCI suspending the dentist's membership and the PH associations in Zim suspending the PH's membership added to up in my mind that this was an incident of poaching. But after reading yet more contradictory "reports" today, I'm not sure what to think at this point.

It would seem that if the PH had all the paperwork in place, he would have certainly provided his copies to prove it. And thus, there would have been no need for the Zim courts to be involved or the associations suspending his membership. But alas TIA and who really knows what the truth is.

This is certainly yet another example of why not to jump to conclusions. Hopefully in the end the truth of it all will come out and conclusions will not be necessary. If it turns out the dentist was not guilty of any wrong doing.....my oh my! His practice is already closed and I doubt he'll ever work at his profession again. And I can only imagine what his family has and will continue to go through. Even if it turns out he is guilty, you'd think by the overall world reaction the man was some sort of 21st century Hitler.
 
Regardless of the truth he may be the sacrificial lamb for Mugabe to start his next round of oppression.
 
Every group of individuals can be broken down further into sub groups. This goes for hunters and anti's alike. On both sides, of the coin one of the subgroups are "the few who ruin things for everyone." We distance ourselves from poachers, but they are still hunters regardless if they are ethical or not. Just like plenty of people who don't hunt do not side with the extreme anti's.

Hunters and anti's need each other to keep the opposition in check and find a common middle ground that is advantageous to everyone involved.

I do not have to agree with your point of view, and you don't have to agree with mine, but if we can respect each others beliefs and agree to disagree, is there really any problem?
 
It would seem that if the PH had all the paperwork in place, he would have certainly provided his copies to prove it. And thus, there would have been no need for the Zim courts to be involved or the associations suspending his membership. But alas TIA and who really knows what the truth is.

I've thought about this and wonder if there could also be some kind of governmental power struggle? In the Theo B press release it mentioned that the paperwork was signed off on by the council. Could the national government, or a member of, deem the council paperwork to be invalid, just because? Heck, that wouldnt even be TIA to me. That happens right here in the USA on a regular basis.

Like you said Phil, this just gets less clear as we go on. Honestly, we won't know anything until the court case goes on I don't think.
 
Like you said Phil, this just gets less clear as we go on. Honestly, we won't know anything until the court case goes on I don't think.

And perhaps even then, will we "know" the truth?
 
Regardless of the truth he may be the sacrificial lamb for Mugabe to start his next round of oppression.

Not sure where all the natural resources are within Zim, but it wouldn't surprise me if they lay in many of the hunting areas. Getting rid of them makes a clearer path for the Chinese. And while I don't want to diminish the income that hunting brings into Zim, I bet it pales in comparison to the investment China is bringing which of course can more easily be funneled or should I say filtered through Bob's pockets.
 
Being waaaay behind on reading all the posts, I would like to say a couple of things for whatever they are worth. I am glad that I am not going to Africa to hunt anything anytime in the next year or so, things need to cool off after this totally blown out of proportion event. All hunting will be subject to increased scrutiny for some time and everyone better beware that FWS will be looking for any infractions. Just reading an article not quite as slanted as some others that said that the Lacey Act could be invoked here. It makes me verrrry glad that I got squared away with FWS over my trophies of last year. It makes me wonder if that wasn't the road they were thinking of going down. Fortunately I was able to gather enough extra paperwork from RSA to get my stuff cleared. The one thing I keep seeing and hearing over and over that really pisses me off is this new buzzword in the media about the lion. The lion was "beheaded"! Oh no! This hunter/dentist must be from ISIS!! He beheaded the poor sod! Honestly! What in the sam hill do these people think happens to an animal after it is killed whether for food or trophy??!!? Of course it was beheaded you stupid morons!! To try to equate this in a way that is meant to make the hunter look even worse than he already does is just sickening. Another one I saw today that seemed equally ridiculous. The hunter "posed for pictures" with the dead CECIL! What an evil SOB posing with dead animals!! The level of ignorance among the masses is astounding! Oh and then there is this. Democrat Senator Bob Menendez, himself under indictment for something, I cant remember what is proposing some BS new law to try to stop at least some forms of trophy hunting. o_O Most folks in Zim never heard of Cecil and could not care less either way. What a world.:eek::rolleyes:
 
Speaking of ISIS! Did anyone read in the SCI magazine that just came out, about known terrorist groups becoming involved in illegal animal trade? Rhinos being a prime target. They also mentioned South Africa in 2014 had 1020 rhinos poached during the year- this is the first year ever that the number of poached rhinos exceeded the number of births. Estimated that a pound of rhino horn is now going for $30,000-$35,000. The one terrorist group said it is earning them $600,000 a month. They also gave some staggering numbers on Ele as well. There were about 35,000 elephants poached last year alone. That is one elephant every 15 seconds, or 96 per day.

That is staggering until you hear these numbers. Hunters are responsible for taking only 140 elephants per year. The number of animals that are to be remove actually exceed 140, there are just not enough hunters to reach those quotas. And the world population is at 500,000 Ele. Interesting numbers to me! But I guess it's the hunters that are the problem.
 
Jeez, I'm sorry I mentioned Ivan Carter. I am just not up on who is persona non grata in the PH community. You guys are more Clique than a girl's junior high class.
 
I know this. If they even attempt to extradite the Dr. I will have taken my last trip to Africa. There is no way I would ever take the risk. I have never knowingly done anything illegal on a hunt, but the hunter has no way of knowing where boundaries exist, or even if every single line of paperwork is perfect. I think it is just for show at this point, we will wait and see. My son through his employer has dealings with Planned Parenthood and the discussion was that the P.R. firm has been hired to blow this lion hunt out of proportion to take the spotlight off of them. Kind of makes sense.
 
This all just makes me sick. It has been blown out of proportion and these people have destroyed a family's lives before we even know the facts from fiction. The ignorance and hate disgusts me. Let the courts handle this and leave the people alone.
 
I am SO with you Bsums. Really calls into question a person's faith in humanity and makes one wonder, what will our once great country look like in another 10 years?
I keep hoping this blows right back in the anti's faces. We've heard the incessant screeching in the news from the radicals and their followers on social media. No doubt shocking to see the number of people who fall into that category. I hope the tens of millions in "middle america" are going to see this for what it is. A self serving agenda intended to manipulate the masses. Maybe folks with common sense will recognize what an extreme and disproportionate response this has received. The longer this drags on the more the middle masses are going to get fed up with the stupidity on display.
Idaho certainly is not representative of most of the rest of the U.S., but much of the response from folks around here has been "oh jeez, gimme a break. Do these idiots have nothing better to do?" I think that may be a more prevalent feeling than is evident on the surface because nobody wants the wrath of the mob to be turned on them, so they just keep their head down and their mouth shut.
I guess time will tell...
 
Jeez, I'm sorry I mentioned Ivan Carter. I am just not up on who is persona non grata in the PH community. You guys are more Clique than a girl's junior high class.

I certainly don't know anything about Carter being "persona non grata in the PH community". But I do find it interesting that because I am someone who came out to say I believe his announced position on the Hwange lion matter was ahead of the facts and therefore premature I am somehow a member of a girl's junior high school clique.

I'm curious; . . . am I only a member of a girl's junior high school clique if I have a differing opinion from you and Carter on this one issue? Or am I to be considered a member of a junior high school girl's clique if I disagree with you or Carter's position on any other matter as well? My inquiring mind wants to know.
 
Screenshot_2015-08-01-10-53-59_1.jpg
All kinds of crazy getting on the "Cecil" wagon. What the hell is a Animal Communicator?
 
Im sure we can all agree that this is a crack pot individual!!

1400+ Likes on FB 2200+ Comments and a 100+ Shares. Seems to be a few crack pot individuals:D May just take her on my next hunting trip to communicate with the Kudu on were I can find him:ROFLMAO:
 
....o_O... stupid pathetic city people that most probably watch -The Lion King- to often !!
 
Cecil the lion's killing tells us a lot about the wrongs of animal rights activists
We claim to love animals like Cecil the lion, while ignoring the plights of thousands of other species - not least our own
Cecil-and-Jericho_3390407b.jpg

Last photograph of Cecil with his pack friend Jericho (standing) a month before he was killed Photo: Brent Stapelkamp


By Bryony Gordon

4:06PM BST 31 Jul 2015

Animal lovers are a peculiar lot, aren’t they? Actually, no, that’s not right. People who love animals are not peculiar. Very few of us don’t love animals. We might be scared of some of them – spiders, snakes, sharks, that sort of thing – but by and large we respect and admire them and don’t begrudge their right to an existence.

No: loving animals is perfectly normal; it is not peculiar at all. But people who feel the need to announce that they are animal lovers, in Twitter bios and on Facebook pages and dating profiles? Well they are a different kettle of fish entirely.

When someone tells you that they are an animal lover, I find that what they actually mean is: “I care a lot. I mean, a lot. Way more than you. I am full of empathy and compassion and I have ascended to a higher plane through my love of animals.” At the nub of their love for animals is a fundamental mistrust of humans.

This week, I was reminded of my no doubt hugely unpopular theory when People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (Peta) released a statement about the appalling killing in Zimbabwe of Cecil the lion by Walter Palmer.

walter-palmer-ceci_3393111b.jpg


Walter Palmer, pictured with a leopard and a rhino, shot dead Cecil the lion (Photo: AP)

“Hunting is a coward’s pastime,” said the organisation’s president Ingrid Newkirk. “If, as has been reported, the dentist and his guides lured Cecil out of the park with food so as to shoot him on private property, because shooting him in the park would have been illegal, he needs to be extradited, charged and, preferably, hanged.”

Peta has long used deliberately incendiary tactics to hammer home their point – in 2011, after a spear fisher was bitten by a shark, they released a poster of someone being eaten by one with the slogan “Payback is hell. Go vegan” – but this seemed particularly crass. In a country where human rights abuses are part of everyday life and are rarely punished (or tweeted about, for that matter), Peta’s statement showed an unbelievable lack of the compassion self-proclaimed animal lovers always profess to have.

Meanwhile, back in Minnesota, outside Palmer’s dentistry practice, a poster that read “Be Kind to Animals” sat side by side with one that suggested the hunter should “Rot In Hell”.

Humans, I thought: showing animals how to behave like animals since the dawn of time.

I am not for a moment excusing what Palmer did. I find trophy hunting grotesque, and I hope that Cecil’s death will at the very least bring the practice to an end. But I also think that this whole sorry episode shows us how mixed up we are about animals, what hypocrites us humans are (and, as a meat eater, I happily include myself in that sweeping generalisation). Why are Americans outraged at the shooting of a lion, but not the routine gunning down of their own people? Why are we all horrified by Cecil, but not the dozens of other lions hunted around Africa each year?

Is it because Cecil was given a name and thus anthropomorphised? A post this week on thinkprogress.org tried to make sense of it all. They spoke to Ernest Small, a doctor with the Canadian government who specialises in biodiversity. He explained that lions are known as “charismatic megafauna… [these animals] are usually at least the size of a large dog, and generally larger than a man. Here we are, as humans, getting very excited about charismatic animals. We never think about all the pain we cause to billions of sentient creatures.”

So just over 20 million of us go to Seaworld each year to watch killer whales perform, despite it being well known that many of the orcas are traumatised by being in captivity.

We abhor the presence of horse meat in our supermarkets, but thousands upon thousands of us will happily plough money in to an industry that sees the creatures routinely flogged for the sake of our enjoyment and wallets.

We eat meat, but we are horrified by the slaughter of an innocent lion, and we justify this by telling ourselves there is a world of difference between breeding an animal for food and killing one for pleasure. I’m not entirely sure that distinction cuts much ice with the animals, who end up dead either way.

We find halal disgusting, seemingly unaware that 94 per cent of the chicken we eat in this country has been intensively farmed. We think foxes should be saved, unless of course we live in a city, in which case they should be destroyed to stop them rummaging through our bins or keeping us awake all night with that awful screeching sound they make as they have sex. One week we are calling for seagulls to be culled, the next for dentists who shoot lions.

We bang on and on about animal rights but are responsible for untold animal wrongs.

So maybe we don’t all love animals. Or maybe we do, just as long as it suits us as humans.
 

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