How big an animal would you take with this caliber?

You asked what the biggest animal we would take with this load in Africa. Heyna or Jackal maybe Impala sized animal. I'm a firm believer in heavy for caliber bullets,if for nothing else then momentum. It takes a lot more to slow a heavier bullet down.
You say you are a ethical hunter and will only take broadside shots, so be it. But I've hunted Africa 5 times, so my question to you why would you spend all that money and come home with a minimum bag. I have shot 3 Kudo and not one was presented broadside, not many animals over there will give you the perfect shot you want. Just my 2 cents worth take for what it is.

Pheroze said:

Icq's load seems to be in line with the GS Custom theory of a monometal bullet that is light and fast.

Is it possible that both theories are correct and there are two different routes to the same result?

Click to expand...

Not a firm conclusion on my part, but I'm thinking that of the various bullets that retain weight, whether that be the monometals or the bonded lead/copper bullets available, the answer to your question is yes. But with a caveat.

Now to explain. As I understand it, Mr. Nosler developed the partition when a bullet exploded on the side of a moose and the animal was never recovered. He understood that having a bullet that retained at least reasonable amount of it's starting weight would maintain enough momentum to continue to penetrate the animal, wounding the vitals and thus killing it. That said, even the partition which will always have a special place in my ballistics heart will weigh roughly 50-60% of it's weight after it has done it's job.

The monometals and bonded bullets retain virtually 100% of their weight, my experience with the North Forks showing 95% plus weight retention. What seems like a lifetime ago, I shot a Shiras moose in Idaho with my 7mm Rem Mag using 160gr Nosler Partitions. Bullet recovered and it weighs just a tad over 80gr, so roughly 50%. Now dead is dead and that moose only went maybe 10ft after it was shot.

But.....generally speaking would I be better off with a 140gr high weight retaining bullet whose final weight would be 133gr plus and leaving the muzzle considerably higher? Intuitively my answer to that question is yes. I should get deeper penetration due to higher retain weight and higher velocity and thus maintaining higher momentum and do that with a bullet that creates a larger wound channel due to the mushroom maintaining it's shape and size.

In this comparison of the Partition to the others, how often will it really make a difference? After all, my moose dropped quite quickly and I've also used the same bullet on a number of elk quite successfully. My answer to that question is likely not very often. But, when a $2000 or higher trophy fee is on the line, what's and extra dollar for that little extra assurance?

I would add that the zebra my younger son quite decisively killed on a frontal quartering too shot with a 140gr (now 134gr) North Fork Bonded Core out of his 7x57 and the eland my older boy killed with a 165gr of the same flavor out of his .308 Win tend to support this conclusion.

Pheroze said:

I find myself completely perplexed by the debate. Granted my knowledge is 99% academic. For example, in 375 H&H we have 200gr GS Customs being used successfully on Cape Buffalo and on the other hand we have 350gr Woodleigh's being touted as a great idea for the same beast.

Icq's load seems to be in line with the GS Custom theory of a monometal bullet that is light and fast.

Is it possible that both theories are correct and there are two different routes to the same result? The animal does not die until it bleeds enough. Heavy/slow and light/fast will destroy tissue in different ways but they will do it. What makes me hesitate on the monometals is an idea @velodog wrote about (and I hope I am paraphrasing him correctly): that is the idea of deflection. Icq's load would not have the same straight line integrity if it does not hit a bone straight on to break it. A high speed monometal 110gr will deflect more dramatically than a slower and softer 140gr lead bullet.

If I am getting this then the issue for Icq is not whether one bullet type and load will fail or not in a general sense. But, are the weaknesses inherent to the bullet and load exacerbated by the choice of target? That is a question of balancing risk and benefits for the particular hunt, which may be a personal decision.

I dunno. Still not sure but it sounds good to me.

Click to expand...

It is precisely because of the GS Custom philosophy I was asking the question. They list many animals taken cleanly with a 22-250 and a 40gr bullet so I wondered how effective a larger diameter 110gr would be. Coming from a science background I tend to question theories but certainly wasn't prepared for some of the responses.

I find it all very perplexing and concerning. However, I still believe SD has to play in here somewhere and so does momentum. I have, for the time being, come up with this guideline for myself with my 375: 200gr GS Custom for everything up to Eland. 264gr GS Custom or 300gr Woodleigh for Eland and maybe Buffalo, 350gr Woodleigh for Buffalo. For my '06 150gr GS Custom for everything up to Eland.

I think I take my guidance from the considerable experience I have read here on AH regarding a bullet that is light and fast vs heavy and slow...If something could go wrong it will with me!...and Dr. Robertson's articles I have read about the new heavy for caliber lead bullets.

So, without having much real world experience at all but trying hard to consolidate all the information, I would say your load is dangerously light for a heavier bodied creature. It may work but you are reducing the margin of error accordingly. Just my thoughts. Also, look at the GS Custom site because the optimum weight for the 7mm RM even for them is heavier than 110gr.

lcq said:

It is precisely because of the GS Custom philosophy I was asking the question. They list many animals taken cleanly with a 22-250 and a 40gr bullet so I wondered how effective a larger diameter 110gr would be. Coming from a science background I tend to question theories but certainly wasn't prepared for some of the responses.

Click to expand...

You should have been prepared for the negative response, it is the standard answer on most hunting forums it someone ask to shoot a lighter than designed bullet for caliber at larger animals by people who have years of shooting & big game experience. Just like if you Google the round 110 grains 7mm Barnes was a Federal 7mm Rem Mag factory load few years ago, now 140 grain is the lightest bullet for loaded ammo for 7mm Rem Mag they sell. This is really a older argument that was played out when Barnes first designed the bullet years ago heck that why I tried them on whitetail as I like speed love 7mm but like BC better and long range accuracy even better .

Now 22-250 is another fav calib I own for varmint not apples to apples as the bullets for 22-250 are 35 grains to 60 grains so the 40 is not "Lighter than designed bullet" 40 grain avg over 4000 fps by most loaders and sucks as deer load if you have any of the condtions we have mentioned such as angle, wind, brush, large body

AfricaHunting.com said:

Post edited by AfricaHunting.com.

Click to expand...

Pheroze said:

I find it all very perplexing and concerning. However, I still believe SD has to play in here somewhere and so does momentum. I have, for the time being, come up with this guideline for myself with my 375: 200gr GS Custom for everything up to Eland. 264gr GS Custom or 300gr Woodleigh for Eland and maybe Buffalo, 350gr Woodleigh for Buffalo. For my '06 150gr GS Custom for everything up to Eland.

I think I take my guidance from the considerable experience I have read here on AH regarding a bullet that is light and fast vs heavy and slow...If something could go wrong it will with me!...and Dr. Robertson's articles I have read about the new heavy for caliber lead bullets.

So, without having much real world experience at all but trying hard to consolidate all the information, I would say your load is dangerously light for a heavier bodied creature. It may work but you are reducing the margin of error accordingly. Just my thoughts. Also, look at the GS Custom site because the optimum weight for the 7mm RM even for them is heavier than 110gr.

Click to expand...

I wrote GS Custom and they say 116-120 are recommended 130 as well 140 requires a 1:8 twist. You are 100% on with the margin of error

huntingbigun said:

You should have been prepared for the negative response, it is the standard answer on most hunting forums it someone ask to shoot a lighter than designed bullet for caliber at larger animals by people who have years of shooting & big game experience. Just like if you Google the round 110 grains 7mm Barnes was a Federal 7mm Rem Mag factory load few years ago, now 140 grain is the lightest bullet for loaded ammo for 7mm Rem Mag they sell. This is really a older argument that was played out when Barnes first designed the bullet years ago heck that why I tried them on whitetail as I like speed love 7mm but like BC better and long range accuracy even better .

Now 22-250 is another fav calib I own for varmint not apples to apples as the bullets for 22-250 are 35 grains to 60 grains so the 40 is not "Lighter than designed bullet" 40 grain avg over 4000 fps by most loaders and sucks as deer load if you have any of the condtions we have mentioned such as angle, wind, brush, large body

AfricaHunting.com said:

Post edited by AfricaHunting.com.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

I would hate to think that being an AH Gold supporter would grant an individual the right to have posts selectively deleted.

Jerome if this is the case then please let me know I really don't want to be part of a forum that permits this to go on. If it is an honest moderator error I can accept that.

AfricaHunting.com said:

Post edited by AfricaHunting.com.

Click to expand...

lcq, Thank you for allowing me to explain myself. I should have been pro active by sending you a PM to make you aware that I deleted these two posts as well as explain the reason. I received your PM as well.

I did indeed delete both posts that followed including one of yours and one from huntingbigun due to the comments that were contained. I guess I did not understand why it escalated but I believe I did not interpret the comment as you did which was honest on my part. I read it differently, but I can see now how it offended you with a different interpretation, but I really didn't understand it like that which is why I left that post up. I think it was a miscommunication between everyone, me included.

Both of you are valuable members of AH and I would never play favorites because someone is or is not a supporter of the site. The rules are the rules and they apply to everyone equally. I strive to have a community where people can discuss and disagree and keep it gentlemanly. I don't always know what is the right way to handle all situations and personalities but do my best with always good intentions to keep the peace on AH so I hope that you can accept the way I moderated this matter.

AfricaHunting.com said:

Post edited by AfricaHunting.com.

Click to expand...

I think there's a lot lost in translation when you try to apply experiences with relatively low velocity heavy weight solid bullets to expanding monometals at high velocity, and against further lead-core expanding bullets. It's just not apt to compare the idea of a large caliber bullet on massive game to the demands of a small-bore rifle. We shoot big stuff with solids because we need penetration - an expanding bullet is often not likely to generate an exit. On smaller game, expanding bullets can still produce exit wounds, so we have the luxury of sacrificing penetration for wound volume.

The example comparing the Nosler Partition to a solid isn't really relevant, in my experience. The Nosler design almost intends to fail, but without failing - Even if you blow the front off of the partition, it'll always retain the base of the bullet, meaning it will always penetrate well. The Barnes monometal expanders are the same way - just this week I had Barnes rep tell me that their XPB will shed it's petals - aka fail - anywhere over 1400fps, but they'll do that at about 6", and that my load pushing them to 2200fps would be fine, as the base would still penetrate clear through.

Comparing a solid monometal heavy weight bullet at relatively low velocity to a hyper velocity light weight solid expanding bullet just isn't apt. Using that as a comparison to a more traditional lead core bullet is even less so. You can tell the difference in how these two types kill (not talking about hydrostatic shock vs. hemorrhaging) - I've killed lots of game with both ends of the spectrum, the evidence is clear as day when you get them hanging and start peeling things open.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

Now to explain. As I understand it, Mr. Nosler developed the partition when a bullet exploded on the side of a moose and the animal was never recovered. He understood that having a bullet that retained at least reasonable amount of it's starting weight would maintain enough momentum to continue to penetrate the animal, wounding the vitals and thus killing it. That said, even the partition which will always have a special place in my ballistics heart will weigh roughly 50-60% of it's weight after it has done it's job.

Click to expand...

I actually had a discussion that paralleled this with Barnes this week. I have a revolver that runs much higher velocity than most bullets are intended, so bullet "failure" is a strong possibility. With the Partition, A-Frame, or expanding monometals, the base will always remain intact, even if the tip over-expands (fails) and sheds weight. So you are guaranteed to always get penetration from these bullets. The 2nd half of the wound tract might be dismal, but at least it will penetrate - as an example, I hit a whitetail buck with a 7mm A-frame at 20yrds several years ago, the NEAR lung was jello, the far lung had a hole punched through it, and there were jacket and core frags everywhere in the heart and small rips through the far lung. The exit was the size of my pinky. The bloodtrail was fantastic, but it was clear that the bullet had "failed" due to the high velocity - but it still penetrated, still killed quick, and still caused a lot of bleeding.

So that kind of bullet is like having your cake and eating it too - you get the temporary cavity damage of an expander, but with the ensured penetration of a solid.

IronCowboy said:

I actually had a discussion that paralleled this with Barnes this week. I have a revolver that runs much higher velocity than most bullets are intended, so bullet "failure" is a strong possibility. With the Partition, A-Frame, or expanding monometals, the base will always remain intact, even if the tip over-expands (fails) and sheds weight. So you are guaranteed to always get penetration from these bullets. The 2nd half of the wound tract might be dismal, but at least it will penetrate - as an example, I hit a whitetail buck with a 7mm A-frame at 20yrds several years ago, the NEAR lung was jello, the far lung had a hole punched through it, and there were jacket and core frags everywhere in the heart and small rips through the far lung. The exit was the size of my pinky. The bloodtrail was fantastic, but it was clear that the bullet had "failed" due to the high velocity - but it still penetrated, still killed quick, and still caused a lot of bleeding.

So that kind of bullet is like having your cake and eating it too - you get the temporary cavity damage of an expander, but with the ensured penetration of a solid.

Click to expand...

A bit surprised to hear an A-Frame would do that, I'm sure though the bonding process between the copper/lead has its limitations. If you were shooting say a 140gr in a 7mm Rem Mag, it would still be smoking at a mere 20 yards and certainly be a test for the bullet.

AfricaHunting.com said:

lcq, Thank you for allowing me to explain myself. I should have been pro active by sending you a PM to make you aware that I deleted these two posts as well as explain the reason. I received your PM as well.

I did indeed delete both posts that followed including one of yours and one from huntingbigun due to the comments that were contained. I guess I did not understand why it escalated but I believe I did not interpret the comment as you did which was honest on my part. I read it differently, but I can see now how it offended you with a different interpretation, but I really didn't understand it like that which is why I left that post up. I think it was a miscommunication between everyone, me included.

Both of you are valuable members of AH and I would never play favorites because someone is or is not a supporter of the site. The rules are the rules and they apply to everyone equally. I strive to have a community where people can discuss and disagree and keep it gentlemanly. I don't always know what is the right way to handle all situations and personalities but do my best with always good intentions to keep the peace on AH so I hope that you can accept the way I moderated this matter.

Click to expand...

I think you run a great board and moderate exceptionally well Jerome, I apologise for jumping to conclusions. Being angry at the time I did what I accuse others of, letting emotion get the better of reason.

IronCowboy said:

I actually had a discussion that paralleled this with Barnes this week. I have a revolver that runs much higher velocity than most bullets are intended, so bullet "failure" is a strong possibility. With the Partition, A-Frame, or expanding monometals, the base will always remain intact, even if the tip over-expands (fails) and sheds weight. So you are guaranteed to always get penetration from these bullets. The 2nd half of the wound tract might be dismal, but at least it will penetrate - as an example, I hit a whitetail buck with a 7mm A-frame at 20yrds several years ago, the NEAR lung was jello, the far lung had a hole punched through it, and there were jacket and core frags everywhere in the heart and small rips through the far lung. The exit was the size of my pinky. The bloodtrail was fantastic, but it was clear that the bullet had "failed" due to the high velocity - but it still penetrated, still killed quick, and still caused a lot of bleeding.

So that kind of bullet is like having your cake and eating it too - you get the temporary cavity damage of an expander, but with the ensured penetration of a solid.

Click to expand...

This was the remains of a 160 gr A-frame from my 7mm recovered from a wildebeest shot at over 150M. Looks like 25% of the lead in the tip was lost. GS custom claim they lose petals at impacts exceeding 3000fps but the bullet base continues much like your experience with the a-frame. Barnes don't talk about petal loss in rifle bullets but I've seen images of just a shank no petals.

Jerome

Thanks for all your hard work and you always have done a great job keeping this site civil and the #1 site for information on hunting Africa so sorry for the disruption, sometimes our passion for our sport clouds our judgment and humor can be misconstrue to be a insult, not my intention and my apology to lcq.

huntingbigun said:

Jerome

Thanks for all your hard work and you always have done a great job keeping this site civil and the #1 site for information on hunting Africa so sorry for the disruption, sometimes our passion for our sport clouds our judgment and humor can be misconstrue to be a insult, not my intention and my apology to lcq.

Click to expand...

I'm equally guilty and apology accepted as well as mine offered

lcq said:

I'm equally guilty and apology accepted as well as mine offered

Click to expand...

Well at least we provided some amusement from the Lion debacle LOL, Accepted on my behalf as well, the democrat comment has all my friends who read but not post rolling in laughter so that was a good one. Heck I may use that one some of my friends so good luck and I am sure no matter what bullet you use in your 7MM that has the Barnes name you will have a great hunt and look forward to reading your report.

My way of thinking on the 7mm is this, I'm not gaining anything by going small on grains. To me heavier bullets fight wind deflection, they penetrate and do more damage. You have more momentum. Yes, I understand the small mono bullets retain all their weight which is good. But my main bullet for Africa before this last trip was core-lokt type bullet, 190 grain in my 300 Win Mag and it was great for big and small....just as long as I avoided the shoulder shots. I have stepped away from using those bullets, but Barnes Bullets are excellent...I would just use something heavy from them too.

huntingbigun said:

Well at least we provided some amusement from the Lion debacle LOL, Accepted on my behalf as well, the democrat comment has all my friends who read but not post rolling in laughter so that was a good one. Heck I may use that one some of my friends so good luck and I am sure no matter what bullet you use in your 7MM that has the Barnes name you will have a great hunt and look forward to reading your report.

Click to expand...

If only we could display enough amusement in the Twitterverse to stop the grenading heads over this lion. Some of the posts are beyond insane. Really how many of us have asked the outfitter to see the licenses and permits? I hope to god Barry doesn't extradite the guy because he certainly won't get a fair trial by Mugabe. That said if he was a knowing accomplice he should be nailed to the wall

enysse said:

My way of thinking on the 7mm is this, I'm not gaining anything by going small on grains. To me heavier bullets fight wind deflection, they penetrate and do more damage. You have more momentum. Yes, I understand the small mono bullets retain all their weight which is good. But my main bullet for Africa before this last trip was core-lokt type bullet, 190 grain in my 300 Win Mag and it was great for big and small....just as long as I avoided the shoulder shots. I have stepped away from using those bullets, but Barnes Bullets are excellent...I would just use something heavy from them too.

Click to expand...

Max for the TTSX is 150, TSX 175, new LRX 168. The LRX are supposed to start to open 200fps slower at 1600. I made an error on the GS Custom they lose their petals at 2500fps which for a 7mm would be 400 yds, well beyond what I'm capable from a field position

It is on the light side but Tipped Triple-shocks are such a good, tough bullet I think you're on the mark. I would agree with those who say go with it for everything up to the tough antelope. Elk sized and probably moose/eland sized critters ought to fall pretty well to those