Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

Ivan Carter posted this on FB and I thought it fit this current conversation well.

Hello Vevew

Thank you for continuing to participate in this discussion. I echo the comments above.

I am not suggesting everyone should hunt. I am stating that choosing not to hunt is not the issue either. The issue is the hatred for those who do. What those who hate hunting miss is that killing is done in all aspects of animal husbandry, whether for food or clothing. Hunters are honest about that reality and accept it as a part of proper animal husbandry. In that sense we are absolutely entitled to take the moral high ground. We are honest in our approach to animals, we contribute extensively to their preservation and we don't hate those who choose not to hunt.

Yes, even lion hunting, and elephants and whatever else is taken as a part of a properly managed system. How the system is mamaged is the point, not whether it is a lion or a cow. Both are animals and both are killed for their hides.

So if you identify a farm or ranch that manages their livestock unethically please single them out. If the animals in the wild are not managed properly, that should be discussed too. But, to say all hunting is done for the kill and has no place in modern society is not at all accurate. Hunting is in fact done because of the absolute love affair we have with the creatures and the wild. They are not just useless anachronisms to us.

I cannot comment on this specific case as I just dont know enough. However, you cannot point to criminal and unethical behaviour as an argument against hunting. I say this because hunters are the ones who do the most to eradicate it.

Pheroze , brilliantly stated!

good words , pheroze

Theodore Roosevelt and Conservation: http://www.nps.gov/thro/learn/historyculture/theodore-roosevelt-and-conservation.htm

Pheroze said:

Hunters are honest about that reality and accept it as a part of proper animal husbandry. In that sense we are absolutely entitled to take the moral high ground.

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Hmm, fair enough. Good point!
I want the meat but don't want to kill. I totally see your point.
But how about the act of hunting for the sole purpose of getting a lion's head as an ornament? I see that as unnecessary killing. I'm not arguing it from the population management standpoint, but rather I'd like to understand the mindset of a hunter. Why would anyone pay thousands of dollars for that? It's not about the food, It's about an ornament.

Pheroze said:

Yes, even lion hunting, and elephants and whatever else is taken as a part of a properly managed system. How the system is mamaged is the point, not whether it is a lion or a cow. Both are animals and both are killed for their hides.

So if you identify a farm or ranch that manages their livestock unethically please single them out. If the animals in the wild are not managed properly, that should be discussed too. But, to say all hunting is done for the kill and has no place in modern society is not at all accurate. Hunting is in fact done because of the absolute love affair we have with the creatures and the wild. They are not just useless anachronisms to us.

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I don't know if you read my earlier posts, but I absolutely do understand the concept of population management and I'm not anti-hunting in a strict sense. Few pages back I only asked 'why hunters enjoy killing' (those words were taken from the video I posted; a professional hunter in the video said the words "some people enjoy killing, some people don't."); I never insulted hunters or wanted you to stop hunting. Now it's clear that you disagree with the premise of that question. So, let's move on.

Do every hunter on this forum support canned lion hunting? On this subject I am quite anti-hunting. I fail to see how canned hunting can be considered conservation. Please explain how killing/hunting captive bred lions (especially white lions!) can be ethical.

Vevew said:

Do every hunter on this forum support canned lion hunting? On this subject I am quite anti-hunting. I fail to see how canned hunting can be considered conservation. Please explain how killing/hunting captive bred lions (especially white lions!) can be ethical.

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So the short answer is no, not everyone supports it.

There has been MUCH discussion on this subject on AH. I'd suggest use of the search function and you can find multiple threads to read and participate in, as opposed to discussing it in this thread.

@Vevew, I think before you ask questions you need to understand what you asking. Canned hunting is not the same as lions bred to be hunted. I am not going to waste my energy trying to educate a person, who I personally think is here to stir trouble.

I will answer what I feel about Cecil, if it was done illegally let the law take it's course, if he was hunted legally, congrats a great trophy.

So now it is a Minnesota Dentist and not a rich evil Spaniard that harvested an over the hill lion (average age of wild male lions is 10 -14ys) that was alone outside the park and potentially going to starve to death while taking beatings from every other dominate male lion he encountered.


http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29649636/minnesota-dentist-pays-to-kill-beloved-african-lion

Rockjockey said:

So now it is a Minnesota Dentist and not a rich evil Spaniard that harvested an over the hill lion (average age of wild male lions is 10 -14ys) that was alone outside the park and potentially going to starve to death while taking beatings from every other dominate male lion he encountered.


http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29649636/minnesota-dentist-pays-to-kill-beloved-african-lion

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You mean all of the facts weren't known from the beginning and there might still be more to come out before we know the truth about what happened, who it happened with, and whether a crime was or was not committed????

Shocking....

TMS said:

. . . . about Cecil, if it was done illegally let the law take it's course, if he was hunted legally, congrats a great trophy.

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That says it all as far as I'm concerned.

Royal27 said:

You mean all of the facts weren't known from the beginning and there might still be more to come out before we know the truth about what happened, who it happened with, and whether a crime was or was not committed????

Shocking....

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Exactly!

Vevew,

I probably have not retained everything on this thread but I am doing my best. I may be repeating things too. I try to sneak posts between meetings lol.

Hunting is incredibly diverse and we all do it for different reasons. We also all have our personal limits. I know a fellow who will hunt anything but raccoons. Why the restriction with raccoons? Not a clue. I hunt with guys who will only hunt moose and nothing else. My one son will hunt birds all day long but is really not into big game. The other son will hunt everything.

Asking a question about "canned" hunting is asking us to answer a loaded question. It is not really a fair question. Part of the problem we as hunters face is the emotional response to hunting is deforming it through policy. International restrictions motivated by sensational depictions actually prevent the money from getting to where it is needed. If we allow hunting of cats under ethical conditions then they will be around for generations. The "how" can probably be defined, the "why" is not so easy.

I think the only way to really understand these issues is to live it. Gonzo journalism! Take the hunting course where you live and see where your personal limits are. They may not be where you think they are. And, you will quickly realize that no one wants to walk up and shoot a cat in a cage.

Arc Africa Hunting Safaris said:

If you are indeed interested in understanding hunting and what it entails, I would be happy to host you on a 7 day African safari where you can experience for yourself what the appeal is and the way of life we as hunters are able to appreciate first hand.

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I have a confession to make.... I just can't handle the guilt any longer....

I'm a anti-hunter who came here as a deep spy. But, if anyone would like to offer me a safari I'm willing to consider changing my views... Oh, and I hate elephant hunting in Mozambique in particular. Nothing worse that I can think of!!! So if anyone wants to offer me one of those hunts for free it would really help your pro-hunting cause!

@TMS

@Royal27 great to have a around, you got more chance of these than a jumbo on in Moz...

Royal27 said:

I have a confession to make.... I just can't handle the guilt any longer....

I'm a anti-hunter who came here as a deep spy. But, if anyone would like to offer me a safari I'm willing to consider changing my views... Oh, and I hate elephant hunting in Mozambique in particular. Nothing worse that I can think of!!! So if anyone wants to offer me one of those hunts for free it would really help your pro-hunting cause!

@TMS

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The way things are going, Ill probably have more luck converting the Anti's....

Royal27 said:

I have a confession to make.... I just can't handle the guilt any longer....

I'm a anti-hunter who came here as a deep spy. But, if anyone would like to offer me a safari I'm willing to consider changing my views... Oh, and I hate elephant hunting in Mozambique in particular. Nothing worse that I can think of!!! So if anyone wants to offer me one of those hunts for free it would really help your pro-hunting cause!

@TMS

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Can I put my name in for that hunt? I do not not like hunting and would be very interested in experiencing the hunt. Would you be willing to throw in a buffalo on said safari? By the way the kudu in my profile is sleeping in the cool water and I stalked up on him to get the pic. I have extreeeeme ninja skills!

RJ

If you'd like my perspective i'll share. I didnt come here to spam or "flame" anyone or cause trouble. I completely disagree with the idea of killing an animal for fun. I dislike killing an animal for any reason other than self defense and I'm sure someone can likely come up with another valid reason or two. I used to eat meat, not often, but I came to terms with the hypocrisy and have weaned myself off meat 99%+. I think factory farming is abhorrent and if you are going to eat meat I think hunting is a much better alternative. I don't often speak about this because its my own decision and unless its being discussed I don't see the relevance, for the most part. I agree that eating meat and being against hunting is a hypocritical position.

Now when you say a hunter does not "enjoy" killing, you have my a bit puzzled. Is this not a forum dedicated to discussion and glorification of trophy hunting - hunting for the joy of it? Trophy hunting is by definition vain and for the purpose of the trophy!

I've heard trophy hunters claim that they love the animals they hunt and boast that they contribute largely to conservation, even imply they are solely or the most responsible for the conservation of the animals ("if you take a photo of one of these animals, thank a hunter because we are the reason they are there." thats a quote, not word for word, but a quote from trophy hunter Corey Kowlton regarding endangered or threatened animals.) To claim that you love and then shoot it, skin it, decapitate it, and mount it on a wall is insane. Nobody does that to a thing that they love. Imagine putting your dog down at the end of its life and posing next to the dead carcass with a huge smile of satisfaction and then mounting its head on the wall. You'd be labelled a nutcase. So in my opinion and the opinion of many others, any claim to want to preserve an animal (which trophy hunters are required to contribute to indirectly by law when buying a tag/license) for any reason other than the ability to kill its offspring is just illogical and fraudulent.

If you disagree with the statement about a dog dont let it affect my point which is you don't kill something you love and respect. How can anyone argue that fact with logic? Any money gone toward conservation can go directly to conservation without killing an animal. Trophy hunters willingly *choose* to take a life. I do not believe that using the carcass to feed people exonerates anyone from the the fact that the animal was killed for a trophy or that there is a lot of joy in killing an animal. These photos aren't of hunters smiling next to a carcass because of the pride one feels by feeding an impoverished village.

So that's why people are disgusted with trophy hunting, its killing not for necessity but for the joy of taking a life.

Pheroze said:

I don't agree with the inference you have drawn. The correct inference is that those who prefer factory farming prefer to live in a state of virtual reality. Not taking ownership of the grim reality that is a carnivore/omnivore is living in a falsehood. The real question is not why do people hunt, it is why do nonhunters hate hunters? What is it about the actions of a hunter that the anti's fear? Is it that they cannot accept that the falsehood they live in, the delusion that no animals were hurt in the making of this dinner, falls apart when they see a hunter? The real question is why is it OK to lie to yourself when you should acknowledge the fact that you have taken a life in order to have eaten. A hunter does not "enjoy" killing. A hunter just does not hide from the truth of the situation. By embracing the truth we are free to create an industry that benefits animals rather than support an industry as disgusting as factory farming.

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youd

Deleted member 15212 said:

but the government insists that the lion lived on the reserve and came under its protection.

asking it to prevent the importing of Cecil’s head as a trophy.


Europe needs to ban these lion hunting trophies altogether,” said Luis Muñoz, a Chelui4lions spokesman.


“What hunter, what sort of demented person, would want to kill a magnificent adult lion, known to and photographed by all the park’s visitors?” Muñoz said. “We’re ashamed of the fact that in Spain there are rich madmen who pay for the pleasure of killing wild animals such as lions.”

well, we see where these people obviously stand. it claims the hunt was legal, yet the government says that just because it lived in the park that gave it protection??? hahahahah!!!! ive hunted on public lands bordering parks before and called coyotes right out of the park and had taken them. that doesn't not make it illegal! it was on legal grounds, therefore, it was a legal take.

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"Mr Palmer has also run into legal woes. In 2008, court records show, he pleaded guilty to making a false statement to federal wildlife officials concerning the exact location of the slaying of a black bear during a guided hunt in Wisconsin. He was sentenced to a year probation."

"The landowner bordering the national park has been charged - along with Mr Bronkhorst. Both are due to appear in court on August 6.

On Tuesday, Zimbabwe National Parks issued a statement confirming the charges.

"Theo Bronkhorst, a professional hunter with Bushman Safaris, is facing criminal charges for allegedly killing a collared lion on Antoinette farm in Gwayi Conservancy, Hwange district on 1 July 2015," the statement said."

Well if the law says its illegal to lure a lion out of a park to kill it, guess what....

He has a confirmed, self admitted history of poaching at least one animal and lying to authorities. According to the article nobody involved had the proper permits or paperwork.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ions-killer-revealed-as-American-dentist.html

Also who's claiming it was legal? Other than the the alleged poachers? I haven't found reports of this.