Death of Zimbabwe’s Best-Loved Lion Ignites Debate on Sport Hunting

Here is proof that where no sustainable and legal hunting takes place there is a mess.
Angola has no hunting, so instead of protecting the wildlife of Angola the locals use it as a natural resource.
I have never heard anyone say anything about the killing in Angola.

WHY?????

Is it OK in the eye of an Anti for locals to kill animals regardless of age, sex, species and quantity.
But its not OK in the eye of an Anti to Sport hunt the same species, by selecting the old mature male.
If Angola would ever reopen hunting will the Antis try and stop it?
Do they even know what the reason was for closing down hunting?

I am sure, I speak for all of the hunters on this forum when I say, we love all animals we hunt equally be it a Lion or a Warthog. Why make a huge fuss about a Lion? What about the Sable, Leopard, Duiker or Warthog. Do they only see a Zebra, Giraffe, Lion or Elephant as a creation?

Up to date what has the antis done for Rhino poaching besides to help them selves?
Hunters and Hunting organizations has spent and donated millions. I myself donate to an organization and best of all its not even one from my own country.

Why has the antis never said or done anything about the pictures posted below. I bet you, Hunters has and they are still doing.
Is there a difference between a Lion and a Duiker?

lbgsafaris said:

Is it OK in the eye of an Anti for locals to kill animals regardless of age, sex, species and quantity.
But its not OK in the eye of an Anti to Sport hunt the same species, by selecting the old mature male.

Why make a huge fuss about a Lion? What about the Sable, Leopard, Duiker or Warthog. Do they only see a Zebra, Giraffe, Lion or Elephant as a creation?

Up to date what has the antis done for Rhino poaching besides to help them selves?

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I don't know the specific definition of 'Anti', but I think the prey species need equal protection, because without them there won't be any lions.
Of course I don't want the locals to kill any of the animals the lions prey upon.

There's more fuss about a shot lion than there is about a shot warthog because lions are more charismatic and a bigger tourist attraction. People don't want lions to go extinct before they get the chance to travel to Africa and see them. There are also a lot more warthogs than lions left in the wild. Each individual lion has more 'value' in the eye of the 'Antis'. Of course warthogs are still important because they are prey for lions.
Of course people value the majestic and rare animals over the common prey species.

There are projects like Rhinos Without Borders where non-hunters do donate money. Their goal is to move 100 black rhinos from RSA to Botswana.

If 'Anti' simply means Anti-hunting or Anti-hunter, Then I'm not one, but I don't enjoy hunting either. Here in Finland we have about 3000 Scandinavian lynxes, which is close to the carrying capacity currently. I understand that there has to be some form of population control (be it poisoning or hunting), even though I like the lynx and its beautiful appearance.

There are different types of anti-hunting; Some are against trophy hunting, some are against hunting for food, and some are even against basic population control.

Vevew said:

There are projects like Rhinos Without Borders where non-hunters do donate money. Their goal is to move 100 black rhinos from RSA to Botswana.

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And there was an American who purchased a black rhino permit for $350,000. The entire sum was given to Namibia for protection/conservation of black rhino. The rhino that was hunted was old, no longer capable of breeding but still quite capable of hurting younger bulls that could breed.

Do you take issue with this hunt?

Vevew said:

I don't know the specific definition of 'Anti', but I think the prey species need equal protection, because without them there won't be any lions.

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So I ask again. Other than finding an unlimited amount of money that will allow you to forcibly remove people from their homes what is your plan to protect all of these animals?

I'm also curious, would you personally move away from the only home you've ever known in order to protect an animal that you believe is causing you harm, like the locals believe? It is easy to say what someone else should sacrifice when you are half a world away.

"People don't want lions to go extinct before they get the chance to travel to Africa and see them."

Believe me, for as long as there is sustainable hunting practice they won't go extinct. It's because of hunting and the value that they add, that Lions are still out in the wild.

But as soon as there is no value there will be no Lion.

lbgsafaris said:

"People don't want lions to go extinct before they get the chance to travel to Africa and see them."

Believe me, for as long as there is sustainable hunting practice they won't go extinct. It's because of hunting and the value that they add, that Lions are still out in the wild.

But as soon as there is no value there will be no Lion.

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But they're "protected" in Kenya?!

PHOENIX PHIL said:

And there was an American who purchased a black rhino permit for $350,000. ...
Do you take issue with this hunt?

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That sounds reasonable. I'm fine with that. But I'm not as emotionally attached to rhinos as I am to the big predators (lions and leopards), so that may affect my opinion. If it were a lion, and lions were as critically endangered as the black rhino is, I'd like to be damn sure that the targeted lion was way past his prime, and already close to a natural death.

My main concern is that hunters target male lions that are still breeding and controlling a pride. I've seen numerous videos on YouTube where hunters kill sub-adult males, and lions with light mane (meaning barely adult). As an observer, I'd like lion hunting to be more transparent. For example, in the original post I mentioned that the hunters destroyed the GPS collar for some reason. Do they have something to hide?

Royal27 said:

So I ask again. Other than finding an unlimited amount of money that will allow you to forcibly remove people from their homes what is your plan to protect all of these animals?

I'm also curious, would you personally move away from the only home you've ever known in order to protect an animal that you believe is causing you harm, like the locals believe? It is easy to say what someone else should sacrifice when you are half a world away.

Click to expand...

To cut to the chase, I don't have a silver bullet. There simply are too many people in Africa, living too scattered, and near parks. We can't save every park and area where lions still exist. Maybe governments should focus on conserving areas where lions are not a problem to the locals. In big parks the prides living in the core of the park surely aren't a problem to anyone. Just protect those parks that have a very large lion population.

As I mentioned before, my problem with trophy hunting is that it's too opaque; we just have to trust that hunters don't kill too many lions. Every hunt should go under heavy scientific scrutiny. But it's not happening right now. For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

But they're "protected" in Kenya?!

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Well, the Maasai Mara reserve still has over 2000 lions.

"But I'm not as emotionally attached to rhinos as I am to the big predators (lions and leopards), so that may affect my opinion."

and there stands one of the problem between common sense conservation and and the other.................

Vevew said:

That sounds reasonable. I'm fine with that. But I'm not as emotionally attached to rhinos as I am to the big predators (lions and leopards), so that may affect my opinion. If it were a lion, and lions were as critically endangered as the black rhino is, I'd like to be damn sure that the targeted lion was way past his prime, and already close to a natural death.

My main concern is that hunters target male lions that are still breeding and controlling a pride. I've seen numerous videos on YouTube where hunters kill sub-adult males, and lions with light mane (meaning barely adult). As an observer, I'd like lion hunting to be more transparent. For example, in the original post I mentioned that the hunters destroyed the GPS collar for some reason. Do they have something to hide?



To cut to the chase, I don't have a silver bullet. There simply are too many people in Africa, living too scattered, and near parks. We can't save every park and area where lions still exist. Maybe governments should focus on conserving areas where lions are not a problem to the locals. In big parks the prides living in the core of the park surely aren't a problem to anyone. Just protect those parks that have a very large lion population.

As I mentioned before, my problem with trophy hunting is that it's too opaque; we just have to trust that hunters don't kill too many lions. Every hunt should go under heavy scientific scrutiny. But it's not happening right now. For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason.



Well, the Maasai Mara reserve still has over 2000 lions.

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1. Emotional attachment is a recipe for disaster, emotions screw up sound strategies. Emotional attachment only out of concern for the lion leads to the detriment of other species. Elephants in Botswana are overpopulated and it is to the detriment of other species such as the eagles that make their nests in trees the ele's knock down for fun, but thank goodness that the Botswana ele's are now protected.

2. You need to do more reading. As mentioned the outfitters are now targeting only old prideless lions. Please look up the Dallas Safari Club's stance on lions. Please read about the age restrictions now in place in Tanzania.

3. Unfortunately there will always be those that break the laws and regulations, we call them poachers. We who support legal regulated hunting despise them.

4. You really must be joking if you're going to use any part Kenya as model for what you want. Any lion that ventures out of protected parks is immediately exterminated as vermin. It is such a simple concept to understand yet emotions of people get in the way. In Africa the wildlife has value, it's simply a matter of the animals status that determines what that value is. For safari operators to run a successful business there must be a reasonable amount of the animals present to make it worth the money that a hunter pays to come over. If a portion of that money makes it into the hands of residents of that country, then the animal has value to them being alive. If the residents are not realizing income from the wildlife and are in fact threatened from the loss of livestock, crops or in fact their lives, then the animal has value in being dead. Kenya is a prime example of the latter. And they really don't give a shit if that causes you to have a broken heart, and they laugh at your tears.

Vevew said:

That sounds reasonable. I'm fine with that. But I'm not as emotionally attached to rhinos as I am to the big predators (lions and leopards), so that may affect my opinion. If it were a lion, and lions were as critically endangered as the black rhino is, I'd like to be damn sure that the targeted lion was way past his prime, and already close to a natural death.

My main concern is that hunters target male lions that are still breeding and controlling a pride. I've seen numerous videos on YouTube where hunters kill sub-adult males, and lions with light mane (meaning barely adult). As an observer, I'd like lion hunting to be more transparent. For example, in the original post I mentioned that the hunters destroyed the GPS collar for some reason. Do they have something to hide?



To cut to the chase, I don't have a silver bullet. There simply are too many people in Africa, living too scattered, and near parks. We can't save every park and area where lions still exist. Maybe governments should focus on conserving areas where lions are not a problem to the locals. In big parks the prides living in the core of the park surely aren't a problem to anyone. Just protect those parks that have a very large lion population.

As I mentioned before, my problem with trophy hunting is that it's too opaque; we just have to trust that hunters don't kill too many lions. Every hunt should go under heavy scientific scrutiny. But it's not happening right now. For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason.



Well, the Maasai Mara reserve still has over 2000 lions.

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Just so you know the lions mane has nothing to do with age. Some areas the lions never really get some huge mane like this cat that was hunted in the story.

To use kenya in anyway other then to say it was a complete failure to wildlife is just wrong. It is a mistake period. People going to africa have one group to thank for the wildlife they get to see and that is hunters. That is were the real money comes from that helps the wildlife there. The money the anti's raise goes to buy billboards and other bs that does nothing to help wildlife just goes to help some people feel good.

Vevew said:

As I mentioned before, my problem with trophy hunting is that it's too opaque; we just have to trust that hunters don't kill too many lions. Every hunt should go under heavy scientific scrutiny. But it's not happening right now. For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason.

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This simply isn't true. Lion hunting is regulated by the individual governments of each country as well as CITES. You can't take that trophy home without a CITES permit. Quotas for hunting license are set, and adjusted, based on scientific fact and study.

I'm not sure why you believe that hunters decide how many lions they take? We don't. There is a very finite number that can be taken, and thus the reason for the high cost of hunting a lion.

Like Phil said, you should really do some additional reading and research to understand the facts and get rid of the emotion. Planning the survival of a species on emotion only leads to bad things, and will destroy the lions you love so much. I'll bet you haven't spent the 15 minutes to watch the video I posted the link to. It would be a great place for you to start.

....and I don't know why he is calling "poachers" (or what appear to be poachers) "hunters"...............they're not one in the same.

Vevew said:

...................
As I mentioned before, my problem with trophy hunting is that it's too opaque; we just have to trust that hunters don't kill too many lions. Every hunt should go under heavy scientific scrutiny. But it's not happening right now. For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason. .........

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First off, thanks for replying.

CITES does control trophy hunting of predators using science.
An excellent example is what just happened in Mozambique this year.
The "quota" has not been set (for several species) this year (when I contacted them/CITES a while ago) because the required scientific data has not been submitted by Mozambique.
That's it, done. No quota. The government does not act and provide the required information there are not permits forthcoming, because there is NO quota.

Can someone go and hunt without a CITES quota. Sure.
There are very few people who are going to be willing to go "trophy hunt", pay the very large fees and not have a trophy at the end of it all.

Vevew said:

................... For example the hunters who killed Cecil destroyed the GPS collar for some reason. .........

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There appears to be plenty of scrutiny into that Lion "hunt".
Science won't stop the greedy crooks or the unethical. If they (whoever that may be) do not care to follow the rules then nothing will stop them except costly enforcement. eg. Rhino Poaching
If it turns out to be the case that this individual was destroying the collar that is certainly an act of someone who is trying to hide evidence. That is not the behaviour of an innocent person.
The fact that the Professional hunting association is suspending this individual speaks volumes.
At least they acted. In future possibly other ethical hunters will only book with association members.

As noted in the British study referred to earlier, there were collars on a lot of Lions for a long time. Perhaps it trained the PH's in the area to learn to remove collars. (Tongue in cheek)

Here are some good articles and conversations pertaining to this topic…

- African Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/african-lion.14865/
- Canned Lion Hunting: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/canned-lion-hunting.15221/
- Choosing the Right Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/choosing-the-right-lion.14844/
- Lion Conservation And Human-Lion Conflicts in Tanzania: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/lion-conservation-and-human-lion-conflicts-in-tanzania.14795/
- Breeding Lion in South Africa: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/breeding-lion-in-south-africa.15026/
- Conservation Status of The Lion in Mozambique: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/conservation-status-of-the-lion-in-mozambique.15005/
- Managing the Conflicts Between People and Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/managing-the-conflicts-between-people-and-lion.14975/
- African Lion - What The Hunter Can Do!: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/african-lion-what-the-hunter-can-do.14846/
- Hunters Can Save Lions and Lion Hunting: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunters-can-save-lions-and-lion-hunting.15323/
- Hunting for Sustainability: Lion Conservation In Selous Game Reserve: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...on-conservation-in-selous-game-reserve.17316/
- Finding and Proposal to List all Lion as Threatened: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/finding-and-proposal-to-list-all-lion-as-threatened.18037/
- New Perspective on Lion Hunting in South Africa: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/new-perspective-on-lion-hunting-in-south-africa.15011/
- Hyena: Scavenger or Predator? The Human Influence on Hyena & Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...ator-the-human-influence-on-hyena-lion.14806/
- Lion Hunt Quotas Could Be Good For Animals But Bad For Humans: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...be-good-for-animals-but-bad-for-humans.22946/
- Which Domino Will Be Next? - A Review of The Canned Lion Hunting Controversy: http://www.africahunting.com/thread...of-the-canned-lion-hunting-controversy.14739/
- Hunting Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/hunting-lion.486/
- Is it taboo to hunt White Lion: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/is-it-taboo-to-hunt-white-lion.8737/

I call "ring-piece".....
Not everyone wants to "Share" with the world their deepest and darkest......
As you highlight...there are trolls that would seek info and use that against us and I for one am too cautious to add ammo to their effort.

African lion

Mr. 16 gauge said:

Looking at profile history, methinks I smell a couple of trolls..................... One member has been here since 2012 and has 3 posts in 3 years, the other has supposedly been a member since 2013, and all his posts have been in re: 'canned' lion hunting.
I responded, but after looking at their profiles, I don't think they are here to "understand" anything. My personal feeling is that they are antis who are looking for info that they can warp to their benefit...........I think it's more of a phishing expedition than "Not a hunter, but someone who wants to understand how hunting works in Africa."

I call "bullshit"!!!!!!!!!!

Anyone agree or disagree?

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The source was a good one....take it to the bank

African lion

I am not a scientist but I am no idiot. I have wanted to hunt a lion for years and was at a point when I was ready to book a hunt until my purse strings got tightened. My interest in Zimbabwe was sparked by a "Jaws" of a cat shot by ChopperDan in 2012. Here comes my point....
We, as hunters, need to keep a clean house. As our friend Mr 16 Gauge put in his post earlier....there are Trolls and subversives that would take whatever they can find and use it against us. Our Ego's can be our Achilles heal when we post our trophy photos online etc. Chopperdan mentions having to "scare away the lionesses and cubs" when he shot his lion......he actually mentions that!! Can you imagine the ammo you just gave someone?
I have read the articles against and know from my upbringing and my business that if you want to beat the competition...keep your house in order!
This Theo Bronkhorst has been arrested and will be charged with the illegal killing of a lion. The landowner was too. They had a deal no doubt to kill the cat and happy days....everyone is a winner! When we defend ourselves and say that we are conservationists through and through.....what do we have to really show as evidence? How much of the cost of managing that lion did that landowner pay? How much of that money that Theo paid him went back to managing the surviving lions?
Hunting of lion is not the biggest threat to the wild population but lets not add it to the list.

African lion

Royal27 said:

Planning the survival of a species on emotion only leads to bad things, and will destroy the lions you love so much.

I'll bet you haven't spent the 15 minutes to watch the video I posted the link to. It would be a great place for you to start.

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Now you are twisting my words. I didn't say that my 'plan' is based on emotions. I said that rhinos don't have as much of emotional impact on me as lions and other big predators do. We all have our favorite animals. I do value the scientific method over emotions when it comes to saving the African lion.

Yes, I've watched the TEDtalk. The plan sounds good on paper, but is it actually implemented the right way everywhere? The article in the original post shows that some hunts can be detrimental to the local tourism (by killing the best known lion). And the killing of 72% of all tagged adult males (lions that were tagged inside the protected area!), shows that some hunts do not benefit the species.

Each time this kind of news pop up , I wonder how many similar incidents go unnoticed.

BRICKBURN said:

First off, thanks for replying.

CITES does control trophy hunting of predators using science.
An excellent example is what just happened in Mozambique this year.
The "quota" has not been set (for several species) this year (when I contacted them/CITES a while ago) because the required scientific data has not been submitted by Mozambique.
That's it, done. No quota. The government does not act and provide the required information there are not permits forthcoming, because there is NO quota.

Click to expand...

Who does the population assessment before the quota is set? Is it done by a third-party with proper peer review methods, or do the hunters or the owner of the hunting area do it privately, and just report how many lions there are in the area? How often is the population assessment done for a given hunting area?

I'm a bit lost with the terminology; is an Outfitter the same person as the manager/owner of a hunting area?
And does 'professional hunter' refer to the client who pays for the hunt, or is PH some other person?

Vevew said:

Now you are twisting my words. I didn't say that my 'plan' is based on emotions. I said that rhinos don't have as much of emotional impact on me as lions and other big predators do. We all have our favorite animals. I do value the scientific method over emotions when it comes to saving the African lion.

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I don't think so. You also said that you were more emotionally attached to lions and that it might affect you opinion. I don't believe that it was a stretch for me to believe this statement meant you would ignore scientific fact if it didn't fit what your emotions wanted for lions. . If I'm incorrect in my assumption then I apologize. Your quote below:

Vevew said:

But I'm not as emotionally attached to rhinos as I am to the big predators (lions and leopards), so that may affect my opinion.

Click to expand...

Vevew said:

Yes, I've watched the TEDtalk. The plan sounds good on paper, but is it actually implemented the right way everywhere? The article in the original post shows that some hunts can be detrimental to the local tourism (by killing the best known lion). And the killing of 72% of all tagged adult males (lions that were tagged inside the protected area!), shows that some hunts do not benefit the species.

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The above quote seems to me to support my belief that you will ignore scientific fact and economic information that can and will help the wild lion. To not implement (or be supportive of) a good idea based upon sound principals is nothing but an emotional reaction, in my opinion (un;ess you have a better idea that can be implemented). And another fact of life is that NOTHING is implemented "the right way everywhere." why do you expect lion to conservation to be the exception to this rule? Humans are involved, of course there will be error. You've been told before, but I will say it again, POACHING AND ILLEGALLY TAKING WILDLIFE IS NOT HUNTING. Hunting is the legal taking of animals and is based upon sustainable harvest and is regulated by governmental authority, almost without exception.

You don't know if those tagged animals were killed legally or not, do you? when I refer to hunting, I do NOT include poaching. And by the way, another fact is that hunting helps to control poaching by given people an economic incentive to participate in anti-poaching efforts. There are gentlemen within this thread that have donated both time and money to these types of efforts. And I mean boots on the ground indanger of being shot by the poachers effort.

Vevew said:

Who does the population assessment before the quota is set? Is it done by a third-party with proper peer review methods, or do the hunters or the owner of the hunting area do it privately, and just report how many lions there are in the area? How often is the population assessment done for a given hunting area?

I'm a bit lost with the terminology; is an Outfitter the same person as the manager/owner of a hunting area?
And does 'professional hunter' refer to the client who pays for the hunt, or is PH some other person?

Click to expand...

I'll reply to this as I know Brickburn isn't available. He is going hunting.

I answered this before, but will do so again. Yes, population assessment is done by a third party, meaning the government of the country in which the hunting occurs, not the hunter. and yes, there is third party review of the data by the international community, meaning CITES. I've also attached their website below as it doesn't appear you are familiar with them.

https://cites.org/

Outfitter - owner/manager of the hunting area
Professional Hunter = PH = guide for the actual hunter. his job is to not only help the hunter to take the animal he wants, but to do so LEGALLY.

Hope this helps.

spike.t said:

so phillip are you saying all lions in nat parks that are used to vehicles etc should be killed , or only after a certain age?......

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Nope I'm just saying it is unnatural for those wild animals to have so much familiarity with humans. And if you read some of these recent posts about parks quite a few people have been mauled and killed by these kitties!
Regards,
Philip