Blood Lions: Blowing The Lid Off The Canned Hunting Industry

Saul mentioned "old male lion". An old male may indeed have been kicked out of a pride, in which case killing him has no effect on pride dynamics. Any competent or even semi-competent PH can distinguish a pride male from one which is not.
You are correct and I will not dispute that. But just as there is bad in SA lion hunting there are those out there who would shoot those also especially if 50 to 80k dollars is on the line.
 
Yes Saul it is extremely common for the new pride lion to kill all of the Cubs of the previous lion. It's just natures way I guess.

...and the reason that Outfitters and PH's attempt to ensure that the males hunted are not with a pride.
 
...and the reason that Outfitters and PH's attempt to ensure that the males hunted are not with a pride.
Like I said I agree whole heartedly but the potential for bad is there, just like there are a vast minority of bad SA lion outfitters as the majority do it right. My point still being with SA lion hunts the potential for an inadvertent mistake or a rare bad apple is removed thus relieving stress from the wild lion populations.
 
You are correct and I will not dispute that. But just as there is bad in SA lion hunting there are those out there who would shoot those also especially if 50 to 80k dollars is on the line.
Absolutely. This is one of the downsides of the "good" and the "ethical" lion hunting that the best, most trustworthy people engage in.
 
Like I said I agree whole heartedly but the potential for bad is there, just like there are a vast minority of bad SA lion outfitters as the majority do it right. My point still being with SA lion hunts the potential for an inadvertent mistake or a rare bad apple is removed thus relieving stress from the wild lion populations.

The whole point of hunting the wild populations is to give them value. Kenya is the perfect example of what happens when what you call "stress" is removed from a wild population. These animals suddenly become merely dangerous cattle killing pests rather than a national resource. Captive hunting does absolutely nothing to lessen the pressure on the wild population. It does, perhaps, lower the cost of a Zim or Tanz lion, but the total take is unaffected. The point a number of people have tried to make is that hunting is best defined to the non- hunting public as a meaningful tool in conservation. Killing a human-raised lion does nothing to support that argument. Indeed, to my mind, the practice undermines us to that ambivalent majority who are so critical to us.
 
Absolutely. This is one of the downsides of the "good" and the "ethical" lion hunting that the best, most trustworthy people engage in.
I agree and well stated.
Don't get me wrong folks I'm not saying I'm right and anyone is wrong but... There are two sides to every coin I happen to be on the pro as opposed to the con side. I see the potential for bad but I believe, and from my experience and what I've seen and done, it's rare. Just like the potential for bad in anything. This is where we as hunters need to educate people. This is really no different than any other debate out there. Where I take serious issue is where some directly or indirectly calls me unethical or dishonest because I hunted a lion in SA with no idea whatsoever of the circumstances it was done under. There is nothing dishonest about it or me. I stand behind the ethics of my hunt and would do it again in an instant. If someone disagrees with it fine so be it but it has nothing to do with dishonesty or my integrity.
 
I agree that there is not much of a conservation value to hunting captive bred lions. It is a business. It's all about supply and demand. It's too expensive to hunt true wild lions for most hunters out there. The outfitter gets to make money and the hunter is thrilled to have the opportunity. This is Capitalism at its finest. It's a win, win. Everyone is happy! So..what's wrong with that?

Now....we can talk about all the differences of hunting a wild lion while hiding in a blind and watching over a bait vs. stalking on foot etc. However, let's talk about the conservation impact on hunting in the wild. Tanzania has the largest population of wild lion in the world and is also the most expensive with a successful trip costing about 80k. So where does all that money go to? Corruption and lack of effort have resulted in the decimation of the elephant population in Tanzania and Moz. Conservation is being funded but not utilized. The continued human encroachment on lion populations continues to shrink their habitats and put them at risk. How is that quagmire sustainable?

Finally, let's talk frankly about us Americans. If it was not for us Americans, All of Africa would be poached out, there would be no hunting at all and you could take some pictures of the last remaining animals in a few National parks. Who do you think pays for all the conservation and wildlife programs through hunting in Africa? Places that you like to hunt? American dollars pay for more than 90% of all African hunting, keep outfitters in business, keep the land protected and the animals producing for sustainable harvest. Think you could do that with a few Saudi Princes, a couple of Russians? How long would it take the Chinese to destroy all the wild land in search of minerals and ore? So..next time you are out hunting wild Africa, you might want to thank us Americans for providing you the opportunity to exercise your passion with our dollars, instead of biting the hand that feeds you.
 
The whole point of hunting the wild populations is to give them value. Kenya is the perfect example of what happens when what you call "stress" is removed from a wild population. These animals suddenly become merely dangerous cattle killing pests rather than a national resource. Captive hunting does absolutely nothing to lessen the pressure on the wild population. It does, perhaps, lower the cost of a Zim or Tanz lion, but the total take is unaffected. The point a number of people have tried to make is that hunting is best defined to the non- hunting public as a meaningful tool in conservation. Killing a human-raised lion does nothing to support that argument. Indeed, to my mind, the practice undermines us to that ambivalent majority who are so critical to us.
Red leg I understand your point and respect it very much but I have to disagree. It still gives economic value to the animal, it still relieves stress off of wild populations, and it still is a valuable tool. It worked for bontebuck, black wildebeest, blackbuck, aoudad, pierre David's deer , and countless others. The fact is these species wouldn't be around anywhere if it wasn't for hunters giving them economic value. Furthermore with the exception of the lion none of the others are hunted in their native habitat on sustainable wild populations. Scimitar oryx, Damma gazelle, and addax antelope are the same way. Black wildebeest and bontebuck were for all but for all intents and purposes extinct yet high fenced hunting ranches brought them back. Lions face real trouble in the years ahead, this will be their salvation provided people understand its value. The fact is it boils down to economics like it or not. If it pays it stays. I'm not meaning this as an insult just stating my opinion sir.
 
I also wouldn't consider wild lion populations at the moment sustainable either. This is not due to hunting but habitat loss, poaching, and killed as problem animals.
 
Red leg I understand your point and respect it very much but I have to disagree. It still gives economic value to the animal, it still relieves stress off of wild populations, and it still is a valuable tool. It worked for bontebuck, black wildebeest, blackbuck, aoudad, pierre David's deer , and countless others. The fact is these species wouldn't be around anywhere if it wasn't for hunters giving them economic value. Furthermore with the exception of the lion none of the others are hunted in their native habitat on sustainable wild populations. Scimitar oryx, Damma gazelle, and addax antelope are the same way. Black wildebeest and bontebuck were for all but for all intents and purposes extinct yet high fenced hunting ranches brought them back. Lions face real trouble in the years ahead, this will be their salvation provided people understand its value. The fact is it boils down to economics like it or not. If it pays it stays. I'm not meaning this as an insult just stating my opinion sir.
I would add one other point Eric. I don't know about Tanzania, but the cost of a lion hunt in Zim has not gone down over the last few years, so that prediction is incorrect. If anything, the hunts continue to get more expensive.
 
I would add one other point Eric. I don't know about Tanzania, but the cost of a lion hunt in Zim has not gone down over the last few years, so that prediction is incorrect. If anything, the hunts continue to get more expensive.
I agree and would further say that wild lion hunts across the board have increased. It ceases to be a valuable tool when so expensive few can afford it. Then only a handful of people care about it anymore as it is beyond the reach of everyone else. This issue, on a broad scale, really is more about it being a lion than anything else. Just like the giraffe. Disney has made them cute and cuddly so the masses are appalled by it. Reality is much different. Once this is banned lions as a whole are done. It's sad but true and it will happen. People refuse to see the other side of the coin and despite all the success of the other mentioned animals nobody gives a shit about a pierre David deer because Disney hasn't told them to. Lions on the other hand, it's simba from the lion king. Or the goofy giraffe from the movie.
 
I agree and would further say that wild lion hunts across the board have increased. It ceases to be a valuable tool when so expensive few can afford it. Then only a handful of people care about it anymore as it is beyond the reach of everyone else. This issue, on a broad scale, really is more about it being a lion than anything else. Just like the giraffe. Disney has made them cute and cuddly so the masses are appalled by it. Reality is much different. Once this is banned lions as a whole are done. It's sad but true and it will happen. People refuse to see the other side of the coin and despite all the success of the other mentioned animals nobody gives a shit about a pierre David deer because Disney hasn't told them to. Lions on the other hand, it's Zumba from the lion king. Or the goofy giraffe from the movie.
Let's not tell these people how many giraffes I've shot. I'm already untrustworthy. What will they think of me now?
 
Let's not tell these people how many giraffes I've shot. I'm already untrustworthy. What will they think of me now?
Well I'm with you, I've killed a lion in SA and have every intention of killing and leopard and a giraffe as soon as I can afford it. That's just the tip of the iceberg too!!!!!
 
Let's not tell these people how many giraffes I've shot. I'm already untrustworthy. What will they think of me now?

We're both rowing in that boat buddy.
 
Giraffe , lets see I know they kill one a day on the BVC just to feed the help. Overpopulated fenced game OMG.
 
Jabulani, One of your post was deleted as you did not respect the rules of posting. As it was said to you via PM, if you want to talk about your views on Lion hunting in South Africa please do so where appropriate but don't just go off inside an offer.
Just for the record can I mention another member in this discussion?
 
How do those South African lions score with SCI ? Any good ?
 
How do those South African lions score with SCI ? Any good ?

I think there is a separate category for RSA and Namibian Lions.
 
Just for the record can I mention another member in this discussion?

I think common sense prevails.

I think that most of us are perfectly fine with you mentioning us in a positive way or in a way that moves a conversation along -- for example! I appreciate @Hank2211 adding a little humor (giraffes :)!) in the conversation above ... would be perfectly fine.

I think you need to be careful if you attempt to use someone else to justify your position -- for example! Me and @jabulani think everybody else on this forum and the world in general are wrong .... would not be OK! If I want to say that, I don't need to drag you into it!

And when you are at all concerned, use the quote function and let their original words stand on their own ... especially when you disagree! Post what they said and RESPECTFULLY state why you disagree.

My $0.02!
 

Forum statistics

Threads
54,084
Messages
1,145,342
Members
93,578
Latest member
JoanRigby4
 

 

 

Latest posts

Latest profile posts

Nick BOWKER HUNTING SOUTH AFRICA wrote on EGS-HQ's profile.
Hi EGS

I read your thread with interest. Would you mind sending me that PDF? May I put it on my website?

Rob
85lc wrote on Douglas Johnson's profile.
Please send a list of books and prices.
Black wildebeest hunted this week!
Cwoody wrote on Woodcarver's profile.
Shot me email if Beretta 28 ga DU is available
Thank you
 
Top