At what point are we causing our own problems?

Hank2211 · Apr 21, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
I hate to be the fly in the ointment,but I disagree with the statement that all hunters and hunting methods are equal and that we should not judge and let everyone in our hunting community share the sunshine of their contributions be it positive or negative.
As hunters and conservationist we should be the hardest judges within our own community.

The European hunters have no problem with throwing a member out of a hunting team if he/she transgressed any ethical or legal or safety rules.Shure you will get one talking to by not one,but all the members in the team and next time you are out.
Hunting organizations all have a code of conduct and even more importantly a disciplinary code,that right there shows that we cannot condone what every "hunter" does in the name of hunting.

I firmly believe as hunters we are created equal,from there it is up to each hunter to dictate what direction he is going to take. I for one do not want to be associated with a universal community were killing is the main objective to achieve fame,fortune and credibility or any other ill gotten gains. I can't see myself being judged by the same yard stick as someone shooting hand reared animals in a pen to get into the book. Pretty soon we will have these folks posting video taken by drones of how they sat on a truck until they spotted the right trophy animal before killing it, is this also going to be acceptable?

We can no longer standby and let the actions of a few bring judgement over all of us. Yes no photo will be acceptable to a Anti,but they very well could swing those that are sitting on the fence.

Educate and train new and young hunters by all means,but also prepare them for battle cause this war is only going to get worse with the Anti's and to win a war you need well trained,well armed (educated) disciplined soldier not gangsters.

Hunthard, I'm not trying to be difficult, but can I ask you where you stand on hunting from vehicles in South Africa?

Thanks,

Hank

TokkieM · Apr 21, 2015

Hank I personally don't hunt from a vehicle. I have no issues with people who are disabled that hunt from a vehicle even if I know there are Outfitters who carry them in special made slings. I shoot Jackals and Lynx from the vehicle if I do predator control,I also cull from a vehicle and I will by all means put a wounded or suffering animal out of its misery from a vehicle, but my hunting is done on foot.

Have I had a client shoot from the vehicle,yes I have and that is up to the client if he wants to do so,do I agree with it no I don't. Do I think it fair that a big trophy taken from a truck is the same as one taken on foot,no I don't. Is a mobile blind the right way to hunt,not in my opinion,is it a acceptable way these days to do things it would seem like it, but that's if you want to rob yourself from the true experience of hunting.

Hank2211 · Apr 21, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
Hank I personally don't hunt from a vehicle. I have no issues with people who are disabled that hunt from a vehicle even if I know there are Outfitters who carry them in special made slings. I shoot Jackals and Lynx from the vehicle if I do predator control,I also cull from a vehicle and I will by all means put a wounded or suffering animal out of its misery from a vehicle, but my hunting is done on foot.

Have I had a client shoot from the vehicle,yes I have and that is up to the client if he wants to do so,do I agree with it no I don't. Do I think it fair that a big trophy taken from a truck is the same as one taken on foot,no I don't. Is a mobile blind the right way to hunt,not in my opinion,is it a acceptable way these days to do things it would seem like it, but that's if you want to rob yourself from the true experience of hunting.

I don't mean to be difficult hunthard. Picked this example because I was surprised on my first visit to South Africa that everyone not only thought shooting from a vehicle was acceptable, but that it was really the way things were done. Well, where I come from it was - and still is - considered completely unethical, as well as illegal. If it was up to me, I'd say it shouldn't be done, but in South Africa, I've done it too. Just another of the contradictions we hunters have to live with every day - sort of like you allowing hunters to do the same. So I think it's a good example of how we have to "live and let live" just a bit. And the perils of appointing someone or other to censor what we say or do.

At the risk of re-opening old wounds, another example is the well-known Mark Sullivan. Many people object to how he hunts, and some abhor it. Others see nothing wrong with it. SCI banned him, for reasons that were never clear, at least to me. Others, who do some of the same, or similar, things, are not banned. SCI is a private club, so they can make their own rules, but their rules aren't necessarily agreed to by all of us.

So I will amend my earlier statement just a bit - I wish hunters would stick together, and stop attacking each other for actions that we may not particularly agree with, provided that those actions that are not so far out on the spectrum that we'd all agree that they were completely and unequivocally unacceptable.

The young lady posing with her giraffe doesn't reach that standard, not by a long shot (this time, the pun was intended).

TokkieM · Apr 21, 2015

@Hank2211 this opens a whole new can of worms and as responsible adults and hunters,the choice to hunt off a vehicle will and can only remain the clients. He pays,his Safari, the PH is there not to judge your ethics,he is there because by law you need one,he judges your trophies and makes sure you do nothing illegal or get yourself killed. If he insists you shoot from a truck you can insist on a new PH. That is the problem with us today ( my opnion) we are to scared to upset the next person no matter how wrong he or she may be,everyone has a right and abdicates responsibility.
It does not start or stop with trucks,waterhole hunting,last minute spotlight drives and yes even aircraft and helicopters. No one forces the hunter to do this,but we all know it's happening and stand idly by and turn the other way to keep the peace. If we as hunters cannot keep our own house in order it is going to be a hell of a ride with the Anti's.

Another view point on this is how many hunters are willing to book with a Outfitter that only subscribes to fairchase on the foot hunting in a big area, I am not talking DG only. Outfitters get paid for results and trophies on the wall,successful safaris get measured in inches,numbers and pounds. How many clients are physically prepared and up to a day after day slog in the African heat?

Some will judge you for taking a 400yard shot but dropping a animal in the road off the truck is completely acceptable? Sorry,something is wrong and we need to fix it from the inside of the community or we will all be judged by anothers actions.

I can't say what the lady with the giraffe had on her mind at that time,only she can. Lying next to the giraffe to give a scale of its size is not what I would have done,but it does not make her wrong. Sitting,lying or standing on top off,I cannot and will not condone.

Sometimes doing nothing is also doing something and in this case doing nothing is going to cause more problems for all of us down the line.

johnnyblues · Apr 21, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
@Hank2211 this opens a whole new can of worms and as responsible adults and hunters,the choice to hunt off a vehicle will and can only remain the clients. He pays,his Safari, the PH is there not to judge your ethics,he is there because by law you need one,he judges your trophies and makes sure you do nothing illegal or get yourself killed. If he insists you shoot from a truck you can insist on a new PH. That is the problem with us today ( my opnion) we are to scared to upset the next person no matter how wrong he or she may be,everyone has a right and abdicates responsibility.
It does not start or stop with trucks,waterhole hunting,last minute spotlight drives and yes even aircraft and helicopters. No one forces the hunter to do this,but we all know it's happening and stand idly by and turn the other way to keep the peace. If we as hunters cannot keep our own house in order it is going to be a hell of a ride with the Anti's.

Another view point on this is how many hunters are willing to book with a Outfitter that only subscribes to fairchase on the foot hunting in a big area, I am not talking DG only. Outfitters get paid for results and trophies on the wall,successful safaris get measured in inches,numbers and pounds. How many clients are physically prepared and up to a day after day slog in the African heat?

Some will judge you for taking a 400yard shot but dropping a animal in the road off the truck is completely acceptable? Sorry,something is wrong and we need to fix it from the inside of the community or we will all be judged by anothers actions.

I can't say what the lady with the giraffe had on her mind at that time,only she can. Lying next to the giraffe to give a scale of its size is not what I would have done,but it does not make her wrong. Sitting,lying or standing on top off,I cannot and will not condone.

Sometimes doing nothing is also doing something and in this case doing nothing is going to cause more problems for all of us down the line.

Hunthard..Trying to fix the problem within is exceedingly difficult. Point in fact the lady with the giraffe. What was on her mind? Who knows.. As you said was it scale? Was it making fun of her kill ? Hell if I know. I only subscribe to hunting with folks in a fair chase manner, I d rather be dog tired and unsuccessful at the end of the day than do something like shoot off a truck. I ve shot game at 400 yds and I m proud and I was confident I could make the shot. but getting back to the way some hunters take photo's are they showing superiority or manliness over their kill? Again I don't know. I rather think we should teach the youth and new hunters respect for our sport and the game we harvest. As you said outfitters get paid by results, inches, pounds etc, how do we change that? I am afraid we can't. I ve hunted from a vehicle in our western states because it was the only way to really cover enough ground, but my final stalk was always on foot. I will always prefer a spot and stalk hunt over a truck. But now let's ask what about hunters who are moving on in age and just cant walk all day, do you not book that hunter? Or do you hunt him over a watering hole like the archery guy's do? I will be there one day too but I at least know I did it right while I was physically able to. I know I m all over the place here but I love this sport and I hate the momentum the antis have been gaining. How can you stop a force with tremendous funding and the sentiment of the general public? Again I don't know. I try to educate all the anti hunting folks I run into in a calm and logical manner. We will never ever change them . I think we hunters should think before we do things like some of the pictures that are out there. Lets keep up the fight!

TokkieM · Apr 21, 2015

@johnnyblues age is going to catch us all eventually :A Crutches:

can't get away from that. I have a gentleman that hunts with me every odd year or so,he can't walk to far or to fast any longer and some days are harder on him than others,but he never ever shoots of the truck,even if he only walks 10 meters from it and we drive the truck away he hunts on foot or off his butt sitting at a vantage point that could produce the species he is after. He knows his limits and understands he is going to have blank no kill days, but he also knows how to shoot and that skill alone often gets him "lucky".

As I said before,you cannot stop the Anti's they are already zombified. Hunters and the hunting community can only focus on the part of the population that have no affiliation either way at the moment and although they may never hunt themselves,they will understand the reasoning behind it. That however is going to be very hard to do if we keep turning a blind eye to the wrongs within our own fold.

Hank2211 · Apr 21, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
@Hank2211 this opens a whole new can of worms and as responsible adults and hunters,the choice to hunt off a vehicle will and can only remain the clients. He pays,his Safari, the PH is there not to judge your ethics,he is there because by law you need one,he judges your trophies and makes sure you do nothing illegal or get yourself killed. If he insists you shoot from a truck you can insist on a new PH. That is the problem with us today ( my opnion) we are to scared to upset the next person no matter how wrong he or she may be,everyone has a right and abdicates responsibility.
It does not start or stop with trucks,waterhole hunting,last minute spotlight drives and yes even aircraft and helicopters. No one forces the hunter to do this,but we all know it's happening and stand idly by and turn the other way to keep the peace. If we as hunters cannot keep our own house in order it is going to be a hell of a ride with the Anti's.

Another view point on this is how many hunters are willing to book with a Outfitter that only subscribes to fairchase on the foot hunting in a big area, I am not talking DG only. Outfitters get paid for results and trophies on the wall,successful safaris get measured in inches,numbers and pounds. How many clients are physically prepared and up to a day after day slog in the African heat?

Some will judge you for taking a 400yard shot but dropping a animal in the road off the truck is completely acceptable? Sorry,something is wrong and we need to fix it from the inside of the community or we will all be judged by anothers actions.

I can't say what the lady with the giraffe had on her mind at that time,only she can. Lying next to the giraffe to give a scale of its size is not what I would have done,but it does not make her wrong. Sitting,lying or standing on top off,I cannot and will not condone.

Sometimes doing nothing is also doing something and in this case doing nothing is going to cause more problems for all of us down the line.

Hunthard, I don't disagree with you generally, and I am certainly sympathetic to the plight of the PH and outfitter. I note your comment about 'fair chase'. There are some who have suggested to me that to hunt any animal in any fenced area, no matter how large, are unethical hunters. That is a very privileged position to take (and likely taken by those who can't get to Africa!).

I guess where we might disagree is that "something is wrong and we need to fix it", at least for part of the argument. I understand that there are some actions that will cause all hunters to look bad, and those need to be addressed. However, I actually think those are fairly few and far between, and like the American Supreme Court Judge commenting on porn, "I know it when I see it". Personally, I would never take a shot at 400 yards, both because I can't, and because I think it defeats the main purpose of hunting. But I won't be critical of those who have the skill to do it, nor will I be critical (any more) of those who shoot off of vehicles (as long as it's legal where it's done). Neither will I call it unethical and attack those who choose to hunt leopard over a spotlight - not how I did mine, and not how I would want to do another one, but I can accept that others do it, provided again that it's legal, even if I think the ethics are a bit questionable.

Last example. I once said I would never participate in a "captive raised" lion hunt, and that anyone who did that was the worst kind of hunter. I then was convinced - how I don't recall to do it in a 10,000 acre area, having been assured by all involved that the lion had been there for enough time to be looking after himself, and that no drugs or anything similar was involved. We found that lion by locating his tracks, which took us to a recent kill that we had pushed him from, and we tracked him for hours, until he got tired of us, and he stood his ground, allowing me to shoot. Is that type of hunt ethical or unethical? I'm not sure it's less ethical than baiting, which is unethical and illegal in many countries, and I can tell you it was more challenging and nerve-wracking than my baited leopard hunt (other than the follow up!). I've since changed my mind on these types of hunts, and now object when some people, without looking into what the hunt is really like, put them all under the heading of "canned lion hunting".

Can we perhaps agree that hunters should perhaps try to be a little less judgemental, a little more open-minded, about what other hunters do, and they when we find the bad apple that is really doing something that substantially the entire hunting community (in the area that is relevant) would find unacceptable, we leave the bad apple to the antis?

TokkieM · Apr 21, 2015

Hank I mentioned it on the forum before and I guess you can make fair chase what you want it to be,but hunting on foot is as about as fair as it gets even on a fenced property of substantial enough size to allow for sustainable utilization of the species and the land.

I do agree with you,don't get me wrong we need unity for strength otherwise we are going to loose. I cannot however agree that we need to hand out free passes to guys or girls who step over the line.

Hank2211 · Apr 21, 2015

hunthardsafaris said:
Hank I mentioned it on the forum before and I guess you can make fair chase what you want it to be,but hunting on foot is as about as fair as it gets even on a fenced property of substantial enough size to allow for sustainable utilization of the species and the land.

I do agree with you,don't get me wrong we need unity for strength otherwise we are going to loose. I cannot however agree that we need to hand out free passes to guys or girls who step over the line.

Guys or girls who step over the line - agreed.

johnnyblues · Apr 21, 2015

Hank2211 said:
Hunthard, I don't disagree with you generally, and I am certainly sympathetic to the plight of the PH and outfitter. I note your comment about 'fair chase'. There are some who have suggested to me that to hunt any animal in any fenced area, no matter how large, are unethical hunters. That is a very privileged position to take (and likely taken by those who can't get to Africa!).

I guess where we might disagree is that "something is wrong and we need to fix it", at least for part of the argument. I understand that there are some actions that will cause all hunters to look bad, and those need to be addressed. However, I actually think those are fairly few and far between, and like the American Supreme Court Judge commenting on porn, "I know it when I see it". Personally, I would never take a shot at 400 yards, both because I can't, and because I think it defeats the main purpose of hunting. But I won't be critical of those who have the skill to do it, nor will I be critical (any more) of those who shoot off of vehicles (as long as it's legal where it's done). Neither will I call it unethical and attack those who choose to hunt leopard over a spotlight - not how I did mine, and not how I would want to do another one, but I can accept that others do it, provided again that it's legal, even if I think the ethics are a bit questionable.

Last example. I once said I would never participate in a "captive raised" lion hunt, and that anyone who did that was the worst kind of hunter. I then was convinced - how I don't recall to do it in a 10,000 acre area, having been assured by all involved that the lion had been there for enough time to be looking after himself, and that no drugs or anything similar was involved. We found that lion by locating his tracks, which took us to a recent kill that we had pushed him from, and we tracked him for hours, until he got tired of us, and he stood his ground, allowing me to shoot. Is that type of hunt ethical or unethical? I'm not sure it's less ethical than baiting, which is unethical and illegal in many countries, and I can tell you it was more challenging and nerve-wracking than my baited leopard hunt (other than the follow up!). I've since changed my mind on these types of hunts, and now object when some people, without looking into what the hunt is really like, put them all under the heading of "canned lion hunting".

Can we perhaps agree that hunters should perhaps try to be a little less judgemental, a little more open-minded, about what other hunters do, and they when we find the bad apple that is really doing something that substantially the entire hunting community (in the area that is relevant) would find unacceptable, we leave the bad apple to the antis?

Hank, you raise good points. I will be on my first safari this year for leopard in Namibia where as you know does not allow cat hunting at night. I would have had no problem and I m not sure why to be honest if I was hunting where night hunting was permitted. I would never engage in that if it were illegal as I want to be proud of my trophies. You raised some points about hunting in a fenced area, my original plan was a plains game hunt for this year and I was trying to find that hunt in an area with no high fences. After much discussion with folks here and friends who have hunted fenced areas in SA I agreed to try it. But when the opportunity arose to hunt leopard I jumped on it. I do plan to do that hunt in the near future. Funny you mentioned canned lion hunting. That I am hoping to do in 2017 depending on what happens here with importation. If I could afford a free range lion hunt I would not hesitate for a second! Again speaking to folks here who have done it convinced me they are not pet's heck just ask Reinhard. I would disagree with one thing you said "leave the bad apple" to the antis. To them we are all bad apples. I want to give them NOTHING to say although I know thats impossible.

tarbe · Apr 21, 2015

Hank2211 said:
I don't mean to be difficult hunthard. Picked this example because I was surprised on my first visit to South Africa that everyone not only thought shooting from a vehicle was acceptable, but that it was really the way things were done. Well, where I come from it was - and still is - considered completely unethical, as well as illegal.

Where I grew up hunting, you would lose your hunting license and your rifle just for leaning the rifle against the vehicle!

Here in Texas, vehicles are considered mobile hunting blinds.

Understanding what is legal and accepted in the area you are in is half the battle. The other half is deciding where you will operate within those parameters. There is no hard and fast rule for the second part of the equation. One size does not fit all.

My $0.02 as usual

matt85 · Apr 22, 2015

i couldn't agree with you more Hank2211!

while there are some rules that apply across the board such as not torturing animals. most rules are subject to local laws or local social opinion. what is perfectly acceptable in one place may be unacceptable or even illegal in another. judging someone else's hunting by your own values is not only unfair but a fast way to create a divide in our community. you are doing the hunting community no favors by claiming that your standards are the only acceptable standards and all others should follow your example.

keep in mind, a vast majority of people in the USA consider sport hunting to be unethical regardless of how the game is hunted or how it appears in a picture. hunting for any other reason then for meat is considered "wrong" and "immoral". this ideal has been passed down for generations from father to son and you will not likely convince them otherwise. the #1 question I get when I mention my hunting trips to Africa is "what do you do with the meat?" and no answer I give them is ever good enough because I cant tell them "I keep it".

-matt

blackdog001blackdog001 · Apr 22, 2015

All you have to do is look to the proliferation of hunting shows on cable TV. 30-something's who know everything and tell the PH or guide what to do and how to do it. Camo paint on their face in a deer blind! Yelling and hollering. Looking at the camera with a smug grin.

This will be my 40th year of hunting and I freely admit I am still learning.

kudu1 · Apr 22, 2015

Whenever I see a hunter posting a dumb picture in the Social media I just cringe!

This picture was taken in the early fifties in Mozambique - the guy kneeling in the bottom right is my Grandfather. Those tusks represent the biggest trophy he had ever taken in Mozambique,( from the many that he had already harvested)

If they could figure it out back then - why the hell can the modern hunter not figure it out now?

Hank2211 · Apr 22, 2015

Kudu1, this picture would get you into some serious trouble today. Any picture of anyone which shows an elephant having been killed would likely open you up to threats online.

matt85 · Apr 22, 2015

kudu1, more then a few pictures taken "back in the day" showed people sitting on animals, riding animals, using them as gun racks, and being silly with them. the only thing thats changed is how we look at such behavior.

-matt

Clayton Holland · Apr 22, 2015

I had a discussion with my wife last night who is a non hunter, regarding how someone such as herself views hunting. While she doesn't like killing she said she can understand guys going out and hunting for a special trophy, completely understands meat hunting and can see that hunting aids conservation and has other benefits. So I would say she has a somewhat open view on the subject. She does not understand the taking of photos of hunters with animals and doesn't see that any photo shows the animal respect no matter what the pose. I explained that we like to share them with other like mined hunters and she accepted that but questioned why some put them all over non specific forums like face book. Maybe the type of photo is an in house thing. If my wife is any indication, those outside the sport may see little difference in where the hunter sits or what they are doing. As I said she has a fairly moderate view on hunting and has been with a hunter for 20 years so you can imagine what the antis see. Aparently my Kudu mount watches her every move.

K-man · Apr 22, 2015

Hank2211 said:
Kudu1, this picture would get you into some serious trouble today. Any picture of anyone which shows an elephant having been killed would likely open you up to threats online.

At least you get to keep the mount in the house. Sounds pretty tolerant from a non hunter perspective. My situation is similar to yours, but the mounts are in a different building. That's all I ask from a non hunter. You do not have to agree, I do not have to make you go hunting, and you can be civil to me about what I do.

Clayton Holland · Apr 22, 2015

Ha, K-man the kudu keeps an eye on her from the shed. Apparently my colonial style in decor is at odds with her French provincial.

Christina Nyczepir · Apr 22, 2015

The only reason I created a Facebook account, was due to women posting photos of me bird hunting in Argentina (it was the first time I had ever hunted). I wanted a say in what photos would be posted for God only knows who others would see. I decided to go ahead and keep the account (my first, also, in social media) and use it as a source for learning more about shooting and hunting. That's the only reason I have the account. I have it as locked down as I possibly can, striving to only accept "Friends" in the shooting and hunting world. I say "striving" because antis are known to create fake accounts for the purpose of getting onto hunter's sites to steal their photos. And certain hunters give photos of other hunters to anti-hunters for whatever their warped reasons and games on the social media sites (such as what happened to me). Those who shoot and hunt were the only ones who were suppose to EVER see my hunting photos.

I truly enjoy conversing with other hunters about their personal hunting experiences, as well as sharing my own. Isn't that why most of us are on this hunting forum? And I also strive to do justice to the animal, in whose life I took, in my photos as well as in how the animal's memory is preserved in the taxidermy work I have done. Also in the place the animal takes in my home.

Now, having done all I can to respect those who do not hunt and the animal hunted......if you don't like my hunting photos....don't follow me on the social media sites. And stay the hell off the hunting sites.

At what point are we causing our own problems?

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