At what point are we causing our own problems?

As I reflect on elitism I question whether we might need more of it and more peer pressure in hunting.

At a well heeled country club (they'd never let me in) peer pressure and propriety keep everyone in check. You dress or act inappropriately you get one letter. It happens again, you're asked to leave and you walk from a $150,000 membership in a blink.

Do we not ask for our own troubles as hunters when we tolerate what is irreverent cheeze-ball behavior from our own when we see stupid things and let them stand?

The photo de jour seems to be a woman smiling oddly lying next to her giraffe. A.) she looked like a redneck fool wearing camo and incorrect camo for her surroundings even if tradition be damned. B.) she was not pictured in a respectful and reverent manner with her trophy.

It all seems to me as asking for trouble. When you stop showing profound reverence for animal, the hunt and your gun you usually become easy fodder for public scrutiny.

Things that I wish we could ostracize and self-regulate would be things like:

A.) a buffoon straddling a trophy like they are going to ride it. Makes me sick.

B.) people in inappropriate attire in trophy shots like bedraggled camo, sneakers, fraternity or university shirts, etc. It makes the statement that they have no reverence for tradition nor propriety and that this is just a quickie killing excursion on their way to other sightseeing activities. It really augments the anti-hunter myth.

C.) fools (some pictured even on outfitter sites I found through AH) that have their guns pointed at their own heads crutched over their trophys. A wild trophy is a magnificent time of joy, honor and reverence for the habitat and animal, it is not a piece of flesh to be used as a piss-poor gun rack and it is not acceptable to have a gun aimed in an unsafe direction at any time.

D.) bad side out photos. I saw a pic on or linked from AH of a guy holding two jackals that were absolute hamburger. The entire front chest cavity was blown to bits and both shown proudly. So this guy A.) used an inappropriate gun and ammo for his quarry (he should be embarrassed/ashamed) and B.) decided to photograph the exit side of the animals which was the most gruesome view possible. C.) he showed sociopathic behavior in that he killed an animal that provided little utility, he clearly didn't kill them to eat them and he clearly didn't intend to mount them or tan the hides as there was nothing left, so he killed them for a fee just to kill them.

If we want to avoid the constant barrage of bad press from anti-hunters we have to win the hearts and minds of the uninformed moderate citizens of the world. We have to demand more integrity from our fellow sportsmen. We have to shame our own with peer pressure into better sporting behavior. When things aren't ideal for heaven's sake don't photo document the experience that is the exception from the rule!

In conclusion: we are not vigilant enough about our own demands for propriety and ethics and therefore we are easy targets for anti movements. When can we start ostracizing bad behavior on our own instead of solely blaming the anti's? Lest we forget, we give them the sensational photos and videos that allow them to harm us so who is really to blame? We hand a loaded gun to our enemies too often and then balk at the outcome.

Thoughts?

I can not agree with you more. Look let's face it we will never ever change the anti's minds, we all know that. I also hate straddling a dead animal in photo's, I also don't like the pictures of a hunter carrying out a dead leopard. At least if you want that kind of a picture keep it to your self. If god allows me to harvest a leopard this year I will post "respectful" photos. I try to clean up blood before I take a picture etc....Well said rookhawk.

I think you make excellent points @rookhawk. There is a fine line to be drawn between not hiding that I'm a hunter and also pushing it into people's faces. Many years ago when I was still in high school I was one evening at a buddy's house. His family have long deep roots in Louisiana where hunting is as much a part of life as anywhere in this country. My buddy's mom grew up with this though she was not a hunter herself. She had no problem with it, understood it but I also remember her making a comment about guys driving around with their dead deer on display on their vehicle. It really aggravated her to see the animal treated this way.

Being my buddy's mom was just about a 2nd mom to me, was an ordinarily very patient and in control of her emotions, this really stuck with me just how razzled she got over this. I wasn't a hunter then, but wanted to be and of course eventually took it up. As I did so, I do remember in my req'd hunter ed course the topic of ethics and how we conduct ourselves and it's impact on the non-hunting public.

Sure enough some 30 years later this still rings.

It seems sometime last year that the girl from Texas Tech, the cheerleader first came to the forefront on FB with her hunting pics. At first I was very much on her side, quick to defend her. While I'm still technically still on her side as a hunter, I'm not so quick to defend her now. She's continued in my opinion to invite the hateful comments and it just seems to me she's using the press be it good or bad for her own advancement. Sort of the any press be it good or bad is good, I just want them talking about me angle.

This is not in advancement of conservation via hunting, this in advancement of her own aspirations. Doing so through antagonizement may work for her but not so sure if that works out well for the rest of the hunting world.

rookhawk said:

As I reflect on elitism I question whether we might need more of it and more peer pressure in hunting.

At a well heeled country club (they'd never let me in) peer pressure and propriety keep everyone in check. You dress or act inappropriately you get one letter. It happens again, you're asked to leave and you walk from a $150,000 membership in a blink.

Do we not ask for our own troubles as hunters when we tolerate what is irreverent cheeze-ball behavior from our own when we see stupid things and let them stand?

The photo de jour seems to be a woman smiling oddly lying next to her giraffe. A.) she looked like a redneck fool wearing camo and incorrect camo for her surroundings even if tradition be damned. B.) she was not pictured in a respectful and reverent manner with her trophy.

It all seems to me as asking for trouble. When you stop showing profound reverence for animal, the hunt and your gun you usually become easy fodder for public scrutiny.

Things that I wish we could ostracize and self-regulate would be things like:

A.) a buffoon straddling a trophy like they are going to ride it. Makes me sick.

B.) people in inappropriate attire in trophy shots like bedraggled camo, sneakers, fraternity or university shirts, etc. It makes the statement that they have no reverence for tradition nor propriety and that this is just a quickie killing excursion on their way to other sightseeing activities. It really augments the anti-hunter myth.

C.) fools (some pictured even on outfitter sites I found through AH) that have their guns pointed at their own heads crutched over their trophys. A wild trophy is a magnificent time of joy, honor and reverence for the habitat and animal, it is not a piece of flesh to be used as a piss-poor gun rack and it is not acceptable to have a gun aimed in an unsafe direction at any time.

D.) bad side out photos. I saw a pic on or linked from AH of a guy holding two jackals that were absolute hamburger. The entire front chest cavity was blown to bits and both shown proudly. So this guy A.) used an inappropriate gun and ammo for his quarry (he should be embarrassed/ashamed) and B.) decided to photograph the exit side of the animals which was the most gruesome view possible. C.) he showed sociopathic behavior in that he killed an animal that provided little utility, he clearly didn't kill them to eat them and he clearly didn't intend to mount them or tan the hides as there was nothing left, so he killed them for a fee just to kill them.

If we want to avoid the constant barrage of bad press from anti-hunters we have to win the hearts and minds of the uninformed moderate citizens of the world. We have to demand more integrity from our fellow sportsmen. We have to shame our own with peer pressure into better sporting behavior. When things aren't ideal for heaven's sake don't photo document the experience that is the exception from the rule!

In conclusion: we are not vigilant enough about our own demands for propriety and ethics and therefore we are easy targets for anti movements. When can we start ostracizing bad behavior on our own instead of solely blaming the anti's? Lest we forget, we give them the sensational photos and videos that allow them to harm us so who is really to blame? We hand a loaded gun to our enemies too often and then balk at the outcome.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

I would only add to keep your pictures off of Facebook! And any other site that is not a hunting site.

Some good points made by all so far. We will not change the minds of the antis but we should not rub their nose in the blood of our hunts.

I don´t hide that I´m a hunter, but I only show my hunting pics to fellow hunters, or non hunters who specifically ask me.I also do my best to have my pics taken in "good taste".

However, if anybody comes into my house, they will be surrounded by euro mounts.
Sorry about that

I think you should be allowed to post your pictures where ever you wish.....doesn't facebook have a security system so that only people you want can be let in to view your photos? If not, why would you want the whole damn world be be able to access your photos? Sounds kinda creepy to me................. Same with hunting/fishing/shooting websites; after all, that's what these sites are about.....if you don't like to see photographs of dead animals, then why go to a hunting site? Doesn't really make sense now, does it?
I don't do facebook, or any of the other social media for a number of reasons (main one is my employer DEMANDS access to it, and I figure it's none of their damn business what I do or say....esp. about them.....on my off hours). I see the amount of time that is "wasted" on these sites, and I guess I just rather be doing other things. If I wish to get in touch with old friends, etc., I will email or call them....

But valid points have been made re: presentation.....there are a lot of negative photos out there on the net; I'm sure that there will be more to come....but I don't plan on contributing to them.

I've said it before in other posts: the "antis" don't need a reason to hate us; it's the nonhunter sitting on the fence that we need to not offend.

As far as deer on vehicles: In some states, it is REQUIRED BY LAW, that an animal be TRANSPORTED IN AN 'OPEN MANNER' while being driven down the road. While I understand that it may offend some people, these hunters are complying with the law!!! So if people are offended by such, then they need to talk to their legislators about changing the rules, not beat up on hunters about it.

rookhawk said:

...........
D.) .................so he killed them for a fee just to kill them.
...............
Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Utility: Perhaps he killed them as part of the experience of hunting or Predator control.


Blissful denial of the reality of mortality; People do not want to address death.
How are people that are so far removed from the reality of where their food comes from (or the process of producing that food) going to understand any part of hunting.

What do you do with this mind set?
"Disgusting, I prefer to get my meat from a supermarket where animals didn't have to suffer."


A fellow from Durban. Internet forum from which he was banned.
This guy understands mortality not the enjoyment in hunting.

"Andrew_ew
Posted 11 July 2012 - 11:58

My 2 cents worth:

I fundamentally do not understand why people get joy out of killing an animal.

I did grow up with guns, worked on game reserves and I have culled animals and have come pretty damn close to shooting some big animals in order to protect people.

Every time I shot an animal, I felt a profound sense of sadness and loss.

I do however accept that because of our having to fence in wildlife area's, culling is a sad necessity.

I also accept that as a meat eater, an animal must die before I eat.

I also accept that as a meat eater, it would be hypocritical for me to pass judgment on people who kill animals for food. Sport is a different matter.

That someone could kill an animal for no purpose other than the joy of killing a living creature is something I find fundamentally disturbing. However I accept that there are people who do get this joy and may find things I do fundamentally disturbing - such as going out for hours on end and hurting myself on a bicycle!

On a continent where there is a shortage of food and people are actually starving, the only way wildlife is going to survive is through being an economic asset that produces money & jobs.

This can be done through hunting as well as conservation.

Unfortunately most anti hunting arguments can be reduced to the disneyesque "you shot pumba" (btw not having a crack at you Tumbleweed - it was a brilliant chirp - but it is a good illustration!) as if steaks and chops (the meat kind, not the Hub tjops) don"t come from living breathing animals that were pretty cute before they became supermarket meat.

This view of wild animals as extra's from the lion king will ultimately do more harm to wild life conservation than legal and legitimate hunting does."



Philosophy:

"Hunting is existentially profound, because it places the human being in direct physical contact with mortality," Kowalsky said. "The only way to come to terms with hunting is to come to terms with the unavoidable fact that eventually, all individual organisms die."
http://uofa.ualberta.ca/news-and events/newsarticles/2010/10/huntingtheparadoxoflifeanddeath

How are you going to swing this thinking?

"Very often, the critics of hunting are environmental eco-feminists who say that the way we treat nature is similar to the way we treat women; that if we abuse nature, it is similar to violence against women. And some of them argue that hunting is an act of rape, not against human females but against feminine notions of nature." -
http://uofa.ualberta.ca/news-and-events/newsarticles/2010/10/huntingtheparadoxoflifeanddeath



In the end if you post something on any public forum you are going to get someone who does not like it.

Freedom comes with a large price.

Mr. 16 gauge said:

I think you should be allowed to post your pictures where ever you wish.....doesn't facebook have a security system so that only people you want can be let in to view your photos? If not, why would you want the whole damn world be be able to access your photos? Sounds kinda creepy to me................. Same with hunting/fishing/shooting websites; after all, that's what these sites are about.....if you don't like to see photographs of dead animals, then why go to a hunting site? Doesn't really make sense now, does it?
I don't do facebook, or any of the other social media for a number of reasons (main one is my employer DEMANDS access to it, and I figure it's none of their damn business what I do or say....esp. about them.....on my off hours). I see the amount of time that is "wasted" on these sites, and I guess I just rather be doing other things. If I wish to get in touch with old friends, etc., I will email or call them....

But valid points have been made re: presentation.....there are a lot of negative photos out there on the net; I'm sure that there will be more to come....but I don't plan on contributing to them.

I've said it before in other posts: the "antis" don't need a reason to hate us; it's the nonhunter sitting on the fence that we need to not offend.

As far as deer on vehicles: In some states, it is REQUIRED BY LAW, that an animal be TRANSPORTED IN AN 'OPEN MANNER' while being driven down the road. While I understand that it may offend some people, these hunters are complying with the law!!! So if people are offended by such, then they need to talk to their legislators about changing the rules, not beat up on hunters about it.

Click to expand...

+1.

@rookhawk I won't make it into any country club or gentleman's club either, but then again the famous words of Mr. G Marx also come to mind regarding clubs

As for the rest of your post I agree to a point, hunters should be their own hardest critic's and sure enough address the problems within the hunting community.

Hunting does not start with the way the photos are taken,it ends that way. Hunting starts with the way one hunts and or being taught what is considered acceptable and what is frowned upon.
If you have not been schooled in hunting and you do not have respect for the animals you persue and appreciation for the place you persue it in you are a killer.

Trophy photos are something I take pride in, I will spend more time getting it right rather than getting it done. If the animal has to be moved further (if size permits) then so be it. If the last drinking water has to be used to clean the blood off,then so be it.
Unfortunately no matter how hard you try and hide the damage or blood,it is not always possible to do so. I see no problem with a man carrying any animal out and taking a photo ( my opinion).
What I don't agree with is the sitting on,lying over,riding or any other pose that disrespects the animal.

As for posting pictures on FB I do it all the time and as yet have had no issues. My friends on FB are however mostly hunters. I find it weak that as a hunter I need to hide what I do, I have not broken any law or murdered any animal, I hunted it legally and with all the respect it deserves, just like many before me.

The problem runs far deeper in our society than just opinions and dislikes.
The media and that includes the hunting media have created delusions of grandeur and everyone wants to be in the spotlight for the wrong reasons, I have never met a true hunter that is not humble when a animal is down and dead. Shouting screaming and big shows are not hunting,it's a show.
Further more there are now meat hunters who probably respect their food the most,trophy hunters (not collectors) who have great respect for the animal and enjoy fairchase hunting,then the prestige or status hunters,the wannabes who just want to be on TV and then the folks who really want to understand and learn about hunting but who are not taught.

Most of these can be judged by the type of photos they take and post or show around. I have no problem with a hunter having a spot of blood on his clothes or if he looks like he just ran a marathon,I have a problem with hunters who look like they just stepped out of the pages of a glamour magazine. Camo is hunting clothes as far as I am concerned, I don't judge a hunter by what he wears,unless it's like you mentioned about labelled T shirts and crap.

It is time we as hunters dig into our own bosom and be pro active within our own community,you know the saying about breaking eggs and making omelette's

I think there is a time and place to post pictures that you are proud of. Common sense (which seems to be less prevalent in today's society) should prevail. I do agree with those who take the view that the animal which you have harvested should not be disrespected with inappropriate pictures. I remember when I shot my first deer. I felt a sense of elation that I had "finally got one". There was also a sense of remorse that I had taken the animal. It was not a trophy but meat for the freezer.

When taking nuisance animals etc I don't think pictures should be shown to the general public. Results as posted above can be quite grotesque with the animals being blown apart. It also gives the non hunting public a bad taste in their mouths, and contributes to the "Hunters Are Cruel" mentality.
Once a person's mind is made up it is often difficult to change that mentality. If one was to state that the "sky is blue" but due to misinformed preconceived notions the opposite viewpoint of "the sky is not blue" will not be swayed.

What I find ironic is that PETA can put a calendar together demeaning women by showing them posing naked to further their cause. How is it that that is OK but hunting is not?

@rookhawk , I didn't bother commenting about the vet with the dead cat, just don't understand what made her post that, nor did I comment about the giraffe pic(not sure if done with respect), we don't need to give the anti's ammo to come after us. But together we need to stand united as hunters.

I agree with most of what you are saying but can't agree with the clothing comment. If I have my camo on that is what I'll be taking my pictures with. I'm not going to buy special clothes for my safari. This will probably be a once in a lifetime hunt for me I've saved years to be able to go and I'm going to wear the clothes that I wear hunting here. Other then the stuff for snow I'll leave that home. LOL

A lot of things have changed in the hunting world over the past several decades. When I was a youngster growing up, hunting was about putting food on the table or protecting your chickens (or garden) from predators.....because they were cutting into your livelyhood. Even though my grandfather and uncles knew just about every dirty poaching trick in the book they didn't employ them.....and not because of fear of the law. (my granddad may have used them during the depression, to help feed the family, but that is another issue altogether). It wasn't necessarily the kill that was the most important (although a good, clean kill was something to be justifiably proud of), but the hunt, and the manner that you did it in, that mattered
Today it's whatever/however......poaching is on the rise (and a number of idiots have been busted by posting on social media, so maybe it ain't all a bad thing). We see killing as a pastime, done for thrills...people riding snow mobiles over a flock of ducks (just because), people setting dogs and cats on fire (I have no answer to this one), people are disatisfied unless they have "filled their limit", even if it means in order to do it they have to shoot after hours, towards houses/dwellings, across roads, etc.

In the past, the only reason you needed antlers (3"or longer) was to make sure your target was legal.....big racks were just "gravy" to the hunt; nowadays.....thanks to all the DVDs/TV shows/Videos, it's all about the "antlers"......if you can kill a deer with a big rack, you just ain't a MAN!!! (If you doubt what I'm saying, check the prices at the some of the preserves in the states; value goes up with the size of the rack; you can buy yourself into the record book).

When duck hunting, you took what nature gave you....if the ducks didn't come in, then you went home empty handed. Today? Well, if I had a dollar for every crippled duck I've seen fly into a refuge because of skybusting, I could afford a very nice safari!

Back then, you went hunting with a minimum of gear.....we took a knife, compass, some matches, some rope, a knife, and some extra shells for the gun. Today? Well, check out the local gander, cabelas, or whatever.......tree stands, game cams, big buck grower, decoys that swim and spin their wings, duck calls that cost more than a good boat, cover scents, attractant scents, elimination scents, electronic callers, etc, etc., etc. No shortage of gadgets or gizmos in today's world.

Back then, most folks didn't use camo clothing, and if they did, it was usually some WWII surplus camo that they got from the Army/navy store, and the only time they DID wear it was while hunting. Most folks just wore a brown carhart type coat (unless you were deer hunting.....they you wore a wool, red plaid jacket). Today? Well, camo has become a "fashion statement", and....for some......mixing "types" of camo is a "no-no". You just ain't a huntin' if you ain't wearing camo!

Back then, if you wished to be a "good hunter", you spent time in the woods, practicing how to get close to your quarry without being detected, either by sight or smell.....we started by stalking squirrels with our bows and slingshots, and graduated to bigger game. We learned where to set a trap so that it might produce, what game trails or habitats were being used, and when, and what an animal was apt to do by it's reactions to the enviroment. Today? Just get yourself a fancy rifle with a long range cartridge and a 64X scope on it, and blast away until you hit something..........after all, you saw that guy do it in that "sniper" movie, right?

Finally, back then hunting was learned from other hunters.....traditions (and ethics) were passed down from father to son (or in my case, Grandfather to grandson), people learned from socializing with their peers, we read books on the game we intended to hunt, and we passed them on to other friends and family. Today? we learn our morals from video games where the goal is to kill the most (of whatever) to be a winner, that the biggest is always the best, the end ALWAYS justifies the means, and 'socialization' no longer has anything to do with face to face contact.

........I hope the next 50 years get better, but I doubt it.

Nyati said:

I don´t hide that I´m a hunter, but I only show my hunting pics to fellow hunters, or non hunters who specifically ask me.I also do my best to have my pics taken in "good taste".

However, if anybody comes into my house, they will be surrounded by euro mounts.
Sorry about that

Click to expand...

+1.

Like yourself Nyati, I prefer to not cast my pearls before swine, for the swine in not knowing what they are, will surely trample them under their hooves.

In other words, Facebook was definitely not invented with grumpy old buzzards like me in mind so, I have never graced it with my participation.

I look at it as a double edge sword. Facebook and other sites can be good or bad.Showing picture can get people hating hunting but also could get new people in to hunting. It is just another tool of the modern world that needs to be learned to be used in the right way. I post picture and proud of what myself and son have hunted. I try and use tasteful pictures but any animal that is hunted is not liked by some.

I am not sure if just keeping stuff in private or only on hunting sites really helps us either. We need new and younger people to start understanding why we hunt and maybe even get more to try it.

I agree with most points here. My conundrum is that I love the tolerance shown by the hunting community in general. Pound for pound I would put my money on hunter being among the kindest and most grounded people I have ever met.

On the other hand hunting has been something that until recently was viewed as a proud and honourable activity. It causes me great concern that we are losing ground and being forced into small pockets of the internet.

Much to my disappointment social media is growing and is here to stay whether we like it or not. If we let the anti's dictate how it will be administrated then we lose a valuable tool and medium.

I for one wont be forced out by the ignorant.

This is a very difficult subject. I want to agree with Rookhawk, but frankly, I can't. Here's why.

Very little in life is black and white. As I get older, I tend to find that almost every subject, and every thing, exists on a spectrum. Yes, there are pictures that offend me, but they might not offend many - or even most - other hunters. Some don't offend me but will offend others. Some people believe any amount of blood in a picture is unacceptable (I've had people look at pictures of me with a dead lion and ask "is he alive"!), while others accept it a part of the reality that is hunting. Some people have a more well developed sense of "silliness" than others, and it might come out in pictures. Some people "pose" animals while others prefer more natural pictures - have you seen the baboon pictures on this site? How many of those would qualify as "respectful", by whatever definition? I think you get the picture (no pun intended!).

It's easy to talk about ethics as well, but who gets to decide? There was a time when rifle scopes were thought unethical. There was a time when semi-automatic guns were thought unethical. In some (most?) countries, it's considered unethical (and illegal) to shoot an animal from a vehicle. In South Africa, hunting vehicles are equipped with shooting benches!

Given this, who is to be the judge of what is acceptable and what isn't? And make no mistake, you will need a judge, since we won't all agree. So now we have a judge, who tells us what is acceptable and what is not, according to a rule, or maybe a whim, or a mood.

So far so good, I guess, if you don't mind giving up some of your freedom to act as you see fit. But here comes the best part.

There is no hunting picture, of any type, that will satisfy the antis. So you've limited our freedom of expression, to what end? The antis will still hate you (us) because they won't accept hunting. They aren't rational. They don't care about poor people, or protein deprived people, or people who need to protect their livelihoods, or people who simply enjoy a legal activity.

So in the end you won't have served any real purpose, but we will all be arguing over whether some picture is or is not acceptable. And as we do that, we will attack each other, and make enemies of people who should be allies, and again, to what end?

Is this easy? No. Even I can't be consistent with my own rational views (he said about himself), as I've just expressed them. There are pictures that are so heinous that even the majority of non-hunters who are content to allow us to pursue our sport would find them objectionable. Pictures of animal cruelty. People intentionally wounding animals to provide a charge for video. So what I try to do is this: I turn away, I don't reproduce them, and if I'm in control, I might even bury them. But unless it's really an egregious case, I try real hard not to attack the hunter that might have had a different perspective than I had.

What a fine group of Ladies and Gentlemen we have here at AH. Excellent points made by all. So nice to experience this civility and intelligence while debating such an important and controversial topic. I may not agree with some but I truly appreciate words that make me think without anger and disgust. Smart folks in this place.. Thank you Jerome and Brick for keeping it real...

A guide I hunt with posted (with my permission) a picture of my son and I posing with two turkeys we took a couple years back. I think it a beautiful picture and it has always had special meaning for me. Until now. Now I am confused about my children in such pictures. When I saw it today I was immediately concerned that I had exposed him to potential harassment of the most vile kind. I still think it is a great picture. But someone else cannot look at it and feel what I do because to them it is just two people posing with a couple of dead birds. The problem is a picture cannot, ever, reflect the true range of emotion we felt at the time. It is just a picture of a dead creature. So perhaps, these photos can only ever be really "seen" by those who have been there themselves. There is no point trying to explain the picture to a non hunter. The pictures they need to see are of us in the bush, hiking in beautiful terrain, sitting in a tree covered with snow...OK maybe not that last one. (Sadly that is all one would see of my deer hunt last year but I digress.). But I suspect the pictures that will educate a non hunter probably do not involve the kill. The fellow who posted those pictures from Pakistan did a fantastic job from a non hunting perspective I think. So, unless you have the skills of Karsh I would just consider your own tolerance for abuse and go from there.