"Cheap" Hunts

billc said:

well chris for what ever reason you keep liking to use my comments or me to bring up cheap hunts I don't know why. If you don't care like you say why worry about what I did or will do in the future. If I did it or said it you can just say it was me no need to try and beat around the bush.

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Bill, I don't recall that I ever used you or your comments on the topic of cheap hunts. Fact is that you are the biggest proponent of cheap hunts on this forum who weigh in with your opinion whenever the subject comes up and I might well be one of the biggest proponents of fairly priced (market related pricing)

It clearly is something we both feel passionate about for our own reasons. You're looking at it from a customer's perspective who wants to get the best bang for your buck and I'm looking at it from a service provider's perspective who has been makes a living from this for the past 12 years.

You have more experience being an African hunting client and I have more experience being a Hunting Outfitter in Africa.

To get personal about it here on the public forum as you're doing now is not beneficial to anyone.

Now as far as cheap hunts go a buff(1o,000.00), sable(10,000.00) and giraffe(2500.00) and 10 (4500.00) hunting days for 17797.00 that sounds like a cheap hunt for those animals. But I guess it is not because it was with you so then it is all ok. Plus I guess there is nothing wrong with someone else trying to sell the hunt for you and adding over a thousand to the cost so it can post. Hell you can just add that cost to the hunter right. The fact is as long as you think the prices are right to help outfitters your ok with it. Let someone sell hunts priced with the hunters in mind also that is when it becomes cheap.

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Contrary to your thoughts / statements / insinuations about me feeling threatened by other Outfitters as I'm losing out on business because of them - I am actually more than willing to help aspirant Outfitters to get a foothold in the industry - which is one of the reasons I made some of my concessions and hunting opportunities available to a young man that I feel has great potential as Professional Hunter and Outfitter - the same young man whom I advised to reduce his prices when I saw his initial price list and thought it was out of line (too expensive)...

I did not make this available to him for personal financial gain and I didn't add $1,000 to my price so that it can "post". I made the offer available to him at the same nett price that I would pay for the hunt so that he can hopefully sell that hunt, outfit that hunt, gain some more experience in dangerous game hunting, get some more references and make some money for himself... He will require the services of a DG qualified PH to assist him in guiding that hunt and needs to make provision for this in his pricing. Are you of the opinion that $100 per day for a DG qualified PH is too much? Or should he absorb this cost into the package price so that he makes even less money on an already marginal profit line?

Bottom line is, regardless of how pricing was determined - at $19,000 for those three animals the hunt it is a steal and an excellent opportunity for a hunter who wants a Buffalo and Sable in a quality hunting area. The giraffe is for free - there is no charge for that...

I have no desire to continue with an argument with you here on the open forum or anyone else and I wish you a nice day.

Best regards,

Chris

numzaanstef said:

Thank you friends I sincerely appreciate all the input. It seems that the general consensus is that we will not get away from "cheap" hunts from desperate outfitters that just want to say I booked so many hunters for the season and 2 years down the line being out of business. I urge hunters to please make sure that the HO has been in business for a number of years and has references that goes back at least a number of years.

Thank you to all the hunters that visit South Africa.

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Since I started researching hunts I have found many, many outfitters disappear from the net. I never looked to see their price structure. Just noticed they disappeared when I went back to check a year later.

7-11 does "loss leaders" as a business practice. It is only successful because customers come in and buy other items with a higher price.

Bookings are required to keep the licences by law (min number). No bookings, no international hunters, no license. (Just like losing quota.)

Excellent warning. The buyer had better beware.

BRICKBURN said:

Since I started researching hunts I have found many, many outfitters disappear from the net.

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GREAT point BRICKBURN and numzaanstef, this could not be more true.

I have certainly notice the same and at a high rate. This is not only true for hunting outfitters but also for hunting guides and professional hunters websites, hunting agents, hunting forums, hunting blogs, hunting directories, hunting picture or video websites and hunting equipment stores… Lots of people love hunting and want to get into the business in some capacity only to find out that it is a very challenging business if done properly…

AfricaHunting.com said:

Lots of people love hunting and want to get into the business in some capacity only to find out that it is a very challenging business if done properly…

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Jerome, I actually think it's even more challenging when done improperly! Like Brickburn, and I would think anyone who's been hunting for some years, I've seen people - agents, outfitters, PH's, etc. - come and go. Especially in a place like South Africa, where the barriers to entry are not what they are in some other countries (just compare the SA PH courses with the Zim PH courses (to avoid getting taken to the woodshed, this doesn't mean one is better than the other, just that the barriers to entry are much greater in one country than in the other!)).

There have been threads here on what people want to see in a website, on a hunt, in a PH, etc. I wouldn't have thought it was impossible to do your research and actually put together a good business model, just by reviewing what's on AH. Yet I keep seeing websites that miss the mark by a wide margin, and even at SCI - not a cheap place to have a booth - you see booths that equally miss the mark. Not sure what these people have in mind.

All of these people, of course, make life difficult for those who really do deliver a great product, at whatever segment of the market they are hoping to attract. If someone insists on selling bushbuck for less than a hundred dollars, it can't make life easy for those who are actually planning for a long term future.

So as it is, I will continue to return to outfitters and PH's that have demonstrated their commitment to a great hunting adventure at what I perceive to be a fair price.

As a consumer, all I want is for the seller to be upfront about what they are selling and then deliver on that promise. Also as a consumer I have to accept that if I pay sirloin prices, I need to expect ... and be happy with sirloin!!!!!

My answer to chris from above post sorry did not use the quote button right

Ok you don't recall using the comment I made on your cheap hunt thread that Jerome posted the link to on this thread. (some outfits charge higher prices than others because they can not because they need to.)
That is as true as it gets. If a new outfitter charges the same as a guy in business for 10 years not much chance to get business really. Now a new or old business will basically have the same cost to run a hunt they book. You can get more being a longer running business. Do you need to charge more or you do because you can? You put the price on your time and cost. Could you do it cheaper I am betting yes but you don't want to so you are charging more because you can. Not saying your wrong just showing my point.

Other reason why I said that is this. Many times on this very site a leopard hunt will come up. Lets just say the outfitter values the hunt at 28,000.00. He sees the hunt is not selling and drops it down to 22,000.00. Why did he want 28,000.00 to start because he can ask for that. Does he need that to make money? hell no he is making money at the 22,000.00 just not as much as he thought he could. So that is pricing something because they can.

Next way you use me or talked about me is in this thread and the whole quote issue to me and my son. I did not bring that up you did. Went into great detail on it about the guy now even working with one of the cheaper outfitters.

I try and not make anything personal until someone else does and you have now done it more they once. Not sure if you think playing dumb then makes it not true but that is not working.

Then we have I am a proponent of cheap hunts. The word cheap is how you describe my hunts not me. I am for fair priced hunts that the outfitter makes money and the hunter gets the must for his dollar. With out putting down hunts that cost more or other cheap shoots at people.




this is the part of chris's that I wanted to quote.

CT Safaris said:

Contrary to your thoughts / statements / insinuations about me feeling threatened by other Outfitters as I'm losing out on business because of them - I am actually more than willing to help aspirant Outfitters to get a foothold in the industry - which is one of the reasons I made some of my concessions and hunting opportunities available to a young man that I feel has great potential as Professional Hunter and Outfitter - the same young man whom I advised to reduce his prices when I saw his initial price list and thought it was out of line (too expensive)...

I did not make this available to him for personal financial gain and I didn't add $1,000 to my price so that it can "post". I made the offer available to him at the same nett price that I would pay for the hunt so that he can hopefully sell that hunt, outfit that hunt, gain some more experience in dangerous game hunting, get some more references and make some money for himself... He will require the services of a DG qualified PH to assist him in guiding that hunt and needs to make provision for this in his pricing. Are you of the opinion that $100 per day for a DG qualified PH is too much? Or should he absorb this cost into the package price so that he makes even less money on an already marginal profit line?

Bottom line is, regardless of how pricing was determined - at $19,000 for those three animals the hunt it is a steal and an excellent opportunity for a hunter who wants a Buffalo and Sable in a quality hunting area. The giraffe is for free - there is no charge for that...

I have no desire to continue with an argument with you here on the open forum or anyone else and I wish you a nice day.

Best regards,

Chris

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I care not to have an argument either. The way to stop that is not say stuff about someone on a opened forum.

BRICKBURN said:

Since I started researching hunts I have found many, many outfitters disappear from the net. I never looked to see their price structure. Just noticed they disappeared when I went back to check a year later.

7-11 does "loss leaders" as a business practice. It is only successful because customers come in and buy other items with a higher price.

Bookings are required to keep the licences by law (min number). No bookings, no international hunters, no license. (Just like losing quota.)

Excellent warning. The buyer had better beware.

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Brickburn this happens in all business just not the hunting business. Guys come and go everyday in every kind of business. Not sure why some thing this only happens or is not common in all business. Fact of life guys want to take a chance start a new business some make it some fail. Does not mean they started up and were trying to screw clients.

As for make sure the outfitter has been in business for years. Just another scare tactic really. Someone starting up can be just as good as a business as the one that has been around for years. Ever business had there first day and if people used that logic all the time no one new would ever get to start a new business.
I am glad I broke this rule of not going with a new business because I had one hell of a hunt with a new outfitter and one who only had a few years in business.

Hey Billc remember me?

billc said:

Now a new or old business will basically have the same cost to run a hunt they book.

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That would largely depend on a few things. Does the Outfitter own the property and or animals, does he PH himself or outsource the PH work,is it new or established properties,lodges etc.
Large or small property,distance to concessions,cost of catering if not his own property or lodge.

Easier for a non property owner to cut price on his PH fee if he does it himself, he can also "shop" around for cheaper game in his area. He may however pay higher prices for accommodation and catering or offer 3 instead of 5 star facilities and charge accordingly.

Outfitter that has his own property can cut prices on animals if he does have large enough numbers to maintain trophies year after year. He too can PH himself, but odds are he has more than two or three clients at a time. He has fixed overheads with regards to trackers,cook,fence teams, etc.

Hard to compare the two side by side,but that is the way the industry works.
You cannot directly compare a Outfitter that lives in the city and owns no property to one who owns a couple thousand acres,not the same business model although it's the same industry. Neither would you compare the Outfitter that lives in the city to one who pays upfront for his concessions every year.

What would be fair comparison in the SA context (my opinion) would be to compare cheap hunts on the basis of Outfitters that run the same type of operation eg. Property owners vs Non property owners. It is way too much detail to get into about how property owners manage species,populations and trophy quality compared to the Outfitters who go were animals are available at the right price.

billc said:

............... Fact of life guys want to take a chance start a new business some make it some fail.

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Which supports a prudent suggestion that I just made. Buyer beware.
Assess the risk.

billc said:

Does not mean they started up and were trying to screw clients.

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At what juncture did I state anyone was trying to screw anyone??? Drawing conclusions and making insinuations is not a rational point of discussion.

billc said:

As for make sure the outfitter has been in business for years.

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billc, Where did I say this? I, in fact, did not say it.

billc said:

Just another scare tactic really. .................

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Suggesting that there is more risk from an untried new business than a long established business is a pretty sound suggestion.

Perhaps that's some of the reason the new guy has to reduce prices to induce people to take on the added risk of doing business with the new guy.

As an example: There is a reason PH's are required to be exposed to DG hunting for a period of time before they can actually take a client on a DG hunt.
Basic principle of experience is a requirement. It reduces the risk the the hunter and the risk to the PH.

I personally feel quite capable of being a plains game PH, there is not a hope in hell I would even begin to think I would take a hunter after DG. I have danced with and hunted several DG species myself, that does not make me a qualified DG PH. One day maybe I'd feel qualified, when I gain much more experience. If I live that long.

(As a simple positive suggestion: Stop, unplug your key board and go for a walk around the block man. You get wound up on this subject to the point you are not using quotes.)

billc said:

My answer to chris from above post sorry did not use the quote button right

Next way you use me or talked about me is in this thread and the whole quote issue to me and my son. I did not bring that up you did. Went into great detail on it about the guy now even working with one of the cheaper outfitters.

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Sorry Bill, you jumped on this and claimed you were the client I was referring to. I referred to "a potential client" in my post and that "client" could have been anyone - not only you. I'm not disputing that it was you - what I'm saying is that you identified yourself as the individual I was talking about - not me.

Then we have I am a proponent of cheap hunts. The word cheap is how you describe my hunts not me. I am for fair priced hunts that the outfitter makes money and the hunter gets the must for his dollar. With out putting down hunts that cost more or other cheap shoots at people.

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If the going rate for a 1x1 hunt 10 years ago was $350pd and someone sells hunts today for $250pd it is cheap - there is no other word for it irrespective of who the Outfitter or the Client is. I'm putting no one down or taking cheap shots - it is what it is...

This is my answer to chris just did not use the quote button right.

I never said you made more money on this hunt. I said the cost went up over a thousand on the offer after yours was taken off the site. The same hunt is offered on your site and on another forum for less. Now I am glad you want to help out the new guy but why should a hunter pay more so he can get experience hunting dangerous game. If you want o help so much why did you not do the hunt with him then he could learn and keep the lower cost. This is just my thoughts on it because your telling half the story to try and look good. Maybe I am wrong but I doubt it.

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So if I did the hunt with him (which I will BTW) I should do so for free? What lesson does that teach someone who starts a new business? That things in life are free? That's certainly not how I learned to do business...

The Client should not pay more so that a PH can get experience in hunting dangerous game... He/She should pay the asking price because it's one helluva deal...

Unfortunately my packages are sold out so the hunt is no longer available at the price I advertised it for but anyone interested in the other offer should grab it BTW.

Best regards,

Chris

billc said:

Other reason why I said that is this. Many times on this very site a leopard hunt will come up. Lets just say the outfitter values the hunt at 28,000.00. He sees the hunt is not selling and drops it down to 22,000.00. Why did he want 28,000.00 to start because he can ask for that. Does he need that to make money? hell no he is making money at the 22,000.00 just not as much as he thought he could. So that is pricing something because they can.

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Been reading this thread, but have abstained from all the fun. But Bill I think this is the second time you've raised the discounted hunt, and I think you're making an assumption which may not be correct. Two reasons for this.

First in many areas the quota on a particular animal is paid for up front by the outfitter. I'm quite certain this is the case in Zim. I would venture a guess that a certain amount of quota that an outfitter pays for in advance is not spoken for once the hunting season starts with the hope they'll sell the quota by the end of the season to visiting hunters. But once say September hits, if that quota is still available, the outfitter is going to naturally be wanting to recoup his costs. So discounting a leopard hunt like you mentioned where the profit margin has been nearly if not completely wiped out is now more about recouping the cost of the tag in the first place and not so much about making money.

Second, many of these deals are cancellation hunts where the original client cancelled late and forfeited a deposit. The outfitter simply reduces the price of the hunt by the deposit received and passes along that to a client who then gets a great priced hunt but the outfitter maintains his profit margin.

No argument intended Bill, just making sure it's an apples to apples comparison.

Another thought, not directed at anyone in particular.

Most hunters to Africa book their hunts a year or more in advance. There are certainly exceptions, but most people who are hunting 2015 booked their hunts in 2014 or earlier. So consider this, in say January, 2014 at DSC, a hunter booked a lioness hunt in South Africa for 2015. The outfitter priced the hunt at $5500 and this was based off the cost he was paying at that time to the breeder of say $3500 (just made up numbers here folks, please don't take them literally) plus the expected daily expenses (fuel, food, etc.).

Now thanks to the USFWS threatening to up list lions there has been quite a run on lion hunting in S. Africa. Many hunters have jumped to hunt lion sooner rather than later and many of those did not have the funds to hunt a male lion so they signed up for lioness. This includes the hunter mentioned in my above example. Now for awhile everyone's happy. Hunters are getting their lions/lionesses and outfitters are selling them like hotcakes. But one day the breeder's realize that they've sold an awful lot of lionesses and if this doesn't slow down a bit they're not going to have enough breeding stock for future hunting seasons. So what do you think the breeders do? They raise their prices of course. Now let's say just prior to the 2015 hunting season, those prices for lionesses shoot up from $3500 to $6000.

Back to our booked in 2014 at DSC lioness hunter. They're hunting lioness this year for $5500 and the lioness now costs the outfitter $6000. The outfitter now is going to lose $500 as soon as that lioness hits the ground plus whatever other costs he has incurred.

Folks, while I said not to take my numbers too literally, those numbers aren't all that off either. And this situation with the significant cost increase is not hypothetical, this is the situation with the S. African lionesses this year.

So I think you can see the precarious position this outfitter is in. How will the outfitters respond to this? I'll let you think on that one.

In case you think this is just a one off scenario, think again. This sudden increase in the costs of animals happens frequently. In Zim for example it's not cost increases from S African cat breeders, it's the gov't. A Zim operator books a hunt in one year for a future year and sometime in between the Zim gov't without warning jacks up gov't fees for any number of the animals there. Knowing this can happen, and you were the outfitter, how would you price the trophy fees?

birckburn The second part of that post was not really directed towards you just did one post addressing a few post above. You know by now I just lump everything together and make it clear if I am doing the whole post towards just one person. Sorry for the mix up.

pretty simple solution put a flyer in the contract, now in saying this it also means what i paid for and signed last year, could change this year and i may or may not know the extent as to the details, but surely covers the lioness now changing in price from the breeder

4. Rates and Fees are subject to exchange rate fluctuations and subject to change. -

dobber said:

pretty simple solution put a flyer in the contract, now in saying this it also means what i paid for and signed last year, could change this year and i may or may not know the extent as to the details, but surely covers the lioness now changing in price from the breeder

4. Rates and Fees are subject to exchange rate fluctuations and subject to change. -

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See this type of language often, but usually it refers to changes made by government (other than F/X).

I would be unhappy if my outfitter in South Africa told me that my lion hunt just got way more expensive because his source upped its prices. A good outfitter can avoid that problem - buy a lion this year for delivery next year, at a fixed price. Breeders will do that.

When the change is caused by a breeder, or the market value of game moving, how can I know that I am being treated fairly? If I bought a nyala hunt for, say, $2,000, and a year later the outfitter says it's now $3,000 because the market price has gone up, does it matter if it's his own nyala? It's still worth more today than it was when I signed up, but in one case the outfitter has to buy it, and in another he says it may be his but it's worth more. In neither case would I pay the increased price.

When an outfitter can't cover himself - say, Ethiopia, where the government says any animal taken in a year costs the price in that year, that's a different story and I wouldn't expect my outfitter to take that kind of risk. But equally, if the numbers changed materially, I should have the right to say too rich for me and to get any deposit back.

As for F/X, the outfitter decides what currency to price the hunt in. I agree to pay that amount in the currency chosen. Not my problem if the rates change (as I expect they will over a year or more).

So bottom line, if that's in the contract (other than, as I said, for government changes which are transparent), then I won't sign the contract.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

Been reading this thread, but have abstained from all the fun. But Bill I think this is the second time you've raised the discounted hunt, and I think you're making an assumption which may not be correct. Two reasons for this.

First in many areas the quota on a particular animal is paid for up front by the outfitter. I'm quite certain this is the case in Zim. I would venture a guess that a certain amount of quota that an outfitter pays for in advance is not spoken for once the hunting season starts with the hope they'll sell the quota by the end of the season to visiting hunters. But once say September hits, if that quota is still available, the outfitter is going to naturally be wanting to recoup his costs. So discounting a leopard hunt like you mentioned where the profit margin has been nearly if not completely wiped out is now more about recouping the cost of the tag in the first place and not so much about making money.

Second, many of these deals are cancellation hunts where the original client cancelled late and forfeited a deposit. The outfitter simply reduces the price of the hunt by the deposit received and passes along that to a client who then gets a great priced hunt but the outfitter maintains his profit margin.

No argument intended Bill, just making sure it's an apples to apples comparison.

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Phil I totally get your point on this and understand a cx hunt will be discounted or quote left at the end of the year will get discounted to. The trend has been hunts coming up early each year and right after the show season. I am comparing apples to apples. I am not posting to have an argument with anyone unless they make it one.

I don't really understand why it is hard to understand the outfitter can pick his price on some hunts and set the price. Say on leopard he gets a 1000 a day for 14 days then pays 4000 to the gov for there fees. he then picks what he wants to charge for the leopard and knows his cost going in. If one guy prices the leopard at 5000 another may want 10,000. Now how am I wrong by saying they price it more because they can.
I know people like to think I am saying that is wrong but that is not the case. I am saying if you can get that get it just stop throwing the word cheap out when the other guy prices it lower then you think he should.

I would really like not to have to comment on threads like this but I will be dammed if I am going to let guys tell half truth and not give all the facts. Because someone thinks he can post what I say and just not say my name and all should be ok to him. Well it just does not work like that with me. I don't like to play the little games some like to I guess. If I am talking about someone I will say who I am talking about.

dobber said:

pretty simple solution put a flyer in the contract, now in saying this it also means what i paid for and signed last year, could change this year and i may or may not know the extent as to the details, but surely covers the lioness now changing in price from the breeder

4. Rates and Fees are subject to exchange rate fluctuations and subject to change. -

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Seems easy in theory, in practice I'm thinking not. No one wants to see a price increase after a contract was signed even if the outfitter could provide all the documentation that justifies it.

Booked a multiday fishing trip out of San Diego a number of years ago. This was when fuel prices were all over the map but mostly going up. The trip was for me and 5 other guys. I called up the folks a few days before the trip to ask if there was any additional fuel surcharge that I should expect. Answer was no. Got to the dock where we now had to pay for the trip before we left, I asked again if there would be a fuel surcharge. Guy looked at me like I was talking Chinese, "what fuel surcharge?" he asks. So I paid for the trip in full and the amount I expected to.

So down to the boat we go with all our gear. About 30 mins before departure the boat owner comes on board to, yep you guessed it, discuss whether we paid the fuel surcharge? A fuel surcharge of $400. What were we going to do? I just paid for the trip in full. Were we going to head back to Phoenix?

Now transfer this scenario to Africa.

billc said:

Phil I totally get your point on this and understand a cx hunt will be discounted or quote left at the end of the year will get discounted to. The trend has been hunts coming up early each year and right after the show season. I am comparing apples to apples. I am not posting to have an argument with anyone unless they make it one.

I don't really understand why it is hard to understand the outfitter can pick his price on some hunts and set the price. Say on leopard he gets a 1000 a day for 14 days then pays 4000 to the gov for there fees. he then picks what he wants to charge for the leopard and knows his cost going in. If one guy prices the leopard at 5000 another may want 10,000. Now how am I wrong by saying they price it more because they can.
I know people like to think I am saying that is wrong but that is not the case. I am saying if you can get that get it just stop throwing the word cheap out when the other guy prices it lower then you think he should.

I would really like not to have to comment on threads like this but I will be dammed if I am going to let guys tell half truth and not give all the facts. Because someone thinks he can post what I say and just not say my name and all should be ok to him. Well it just does not work like that with me. I don't like to play the little games some like to I guess. If I am talking about someone I will say who I am talking about.

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I think the point is it's not so much about charging more because you can as much as it's about charging more because that is prudent for your business and it's long term success. That would be the point of my previous post about the escalation in lioness prices.

I'm not going to get in the middle of a battle between you and CT or anyone else. But there are outfitters who have been in the business much longer than you, Pieter or Loodt who maybe aren't trying to attack, but rather are looking out for the long term health of the industry and the RSA Safari reputation. I know you'll likely disagree with that, but maybe give it some thought.

PHOENIX PHIL said:

I think the point is it's not so much about charging more because you can as much as it's about charging more because that is prudent for your business and it's long term success. That would be the point of my previous post about the escalation in lioness prices.

I'm not going to get in the middle of a battle between you and CT or anyone else. But there are outfitters who have been in the business much longer than you, Pieter or Loodt who maybe aren't trying to attack, but rather are looking out for the long term health of the industry and the RSA Safari reputation. I know you'll likely disagree with that, but maybe give it some thought.

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Phil I have thought of that and I am sure some are looking out like you say. But after 30 years of being in business I can say for sure no one doing the same thing as me would care if I was not around. Just like some may believe your point on this some think I am hitting the nail right on the head with my thinking.

I know we all like to think anything to do with the sport we all love is only done for the right reason. The one think I have learned business is business no matter what the trade is.

Again to me there is so many ways to correct the so called problem that some say they are trying to change. Saying that a hunt is cheap because someone thinks it is does no good at all.

What I find funny is how someone posting hunts at 250.oo a day is cheap but then a buff,sable and giraffe with 10 days for 17,797.00 is a steal because it is him selling that. Kind of a double standard with the thinking I would say.

billc said:

Phil I have thought of that and I am sure some are looking out like you say. But after 30 years of being in business I can say for sure no one doing the same thing as me would care if I was not around. Just like some may believe your point on this some think I am hitting the nail right on the head with my thinking.

I know we all like to think anything to do with the sport we all love is only done for the right reason. The one think I have learned business is business no matter what the trade is.

Again to me there is so many ways to correct the so called problem that some say they are trying to change. Saying that a hunt is cheap because someone thinks it is does no good at all.

What I find funny is how someone posting hunts at 250.oo a day is cheap but then a buff,sable and giraffe with 10 days for 17,797.00 is a steal because it is him selling that. Kind of a double standard with the thinking I would say.

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Perhaps Bill, but I don't see the safari business as being quite the same as your remodeling business. The last truck I bought was done so in late November, 2012. It's a 2012 model, it was the sole remaining 2012 model on the lot filled with 2013 Tundras that started rolling in to the dealer in July maybe August of that year. Just think about how much that dealer wanted that truck off his lot and the deal I got.

Now if that dealer went out of business would I care? Nope, I've got at least two more Toyota dealers within 30 minutes of my home with one of those even closer than the dealer I bought at, and several more than that if I want to drive a little further.

One of the things I love about the internet is on the last Friday in November rather than joining that throng of crazy people who go running out in the middle of the night to start their Christmas shopping, I sleep in. When I get up that morning I get a cup of coffee and I sit down with my laptop and do my shopping. I don't burn gas, I usually get free shipping that is included in the online specials and I also save due to those specials. I wear it a badge of honor now if I can avoid all stores and especially the freaking mall when doing my Christmas shopping.

Do I care about the folks at the mall or Best Buy or WalMart getting my business and being able to keep their stores open? No, I care about getting the best price without running all over creation and dealing with those crazy people on black Friday.

You say in the end business is business and I guess you're right. However I hope the safari business does not become like me buying a vehicle, t.v. or piece of clothing and become what someone called a race to the bottom.

If it does I'm quite certain there will be clients who get screwed out of deposits paid when the outfitters who go under disappear. And that will not be good for the outfitters who remain.