A little food for thought - Pricing on African Hunting Safaris

I'm with Bill on this one. Much rather see any of yall, myself included, in a pink shirt than in those short shorts!!!!

Wow this has become quite a thread!

I have a lot of thoughts but first would like to say... I have spoken to billc a couple times on the phone but never met in person... Bill is a great guy offering all the help and time he can and loves to talk about hunting... Bill you are a better conversationalist on the phone and come across much more professionally than you sometimes do when you type. Especially when you get on the pink stuff! You are obviously passionate about your thoughts and I think everyone can appreciate that, even if it does start to rub some pretty hard after a while.

As for spread sheets and pricing hunts... I have thought about putting together a spread sheet and may do so to try and decide on the lion hunt I am planning. The problem is I have no idea how to put a numeric value on the "experience factor" I am looking for... And I do not explicitly mean the experience of the outfitter or the PH.... I am thinking more about my personal experience living up to expectations. And with that in mind, I am also looking for my particular "best value"..... That may well not be the cheapest hunt and may not be the biggest animal. But rather the one I think will deliver the best balance of the experience I am looking for at a good price with a fine trophy as a potential conclusion. But the most important part of that trophy is the memories and story it represents. That is important to me. Of course the money is important and that is always going to be a big part of these decisions. But there are other factors that are important as well and it all contributes to what I see as true "value".

I can honestly say I would love to hunt with all the guys on this thread. But for different reasons and would have different expectations from each.

Royal27 said:

I'm with Bill on this one. Much rather see any of yall, myself included, in a pink shirt than in those short shorts!!!!

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How about in the pink shirts and the shorts?! Baahh!!!

I had this almost done yesterday when the site went down and it would not post. Now that it's up again I will give it a shot. Better late than never?...

First let me say that I have really enjoyed this thread. As a newbie to hunting in Africa, (haven't been there yet) I think I have learned more about the inner workings of the industry in the last couple of days than I could have ever expected.
So with that said, I would like to explain how I see this pricing thing, purely from my perspective, and solely based on my experiences.

Many years ago I was 20 something, single, working 7-8 months of the year in remote bush Alaska. For my time off, I took up scuba diving, primarily in anyplace warm with girls in bikinis, sandy beaches and cold beer. Every time I ended a hitch I was packing up my gear and headed somewhere to dive. I travelled and dove all over North America, Mexico and the carribean. One of my favorite places to go, and a place that I went back to multiple times, was a small independant lodge on an island off the coast of Belize that specialized diving. No other activities to speak of, just diving. I got to be friends with the owner and even kept in contact with him after he sold the lodge and retired.

When I first went to this lodge it was based on the recommendation of a friend of a friend who had been there before. I did some research to confirm it was legit and away I went. It was defiantly not the least expensive place to go, but was also not the most expensive either. It turned out that some of the best diving experiences I ever had were at that lodge. During my time spent there I had lots of conversations with the owner about the lodge and diving business. What he told me (as it relates to this thread) is that when he was was getting started the first several years were "hell" and many times he wasn't sure if he was going make it one year to the next. He decribed his efforts to market his Belize lodge to Americans because that's where the money is, and "selling his soul" to travel agents, (before Internet) giving away trips to groups for auction, attending dive shows, ect...all in the hopes of getting folks to come, have a good experience and then go home and tell their friends about it. By the time I started going there 90% of his business was return people that had been there before and new folks that were coming from word of mouth of others that had been there before. He was not doing any advertising in any of scuba magazines and was not hooked up with an agent of any kind. And his prices reflected what he felt his market could bear. The price was the price and he made no excuses. He had worked hard to develop a solid clientele base that kept him supported and he knew it.

So back to the point that I was going to make before I went into this long winded diatribe...THE WAY I SEE IT, it looks to me like Pieter and Loodt and some others, are simply trying to do what it takes get their feet under them with a relatively new business operating in an old industry, and develop a base clientele that will go home and share their experiences with the next guy. It doesn't necessarily mean that just because their rates are lower that the hunter will have a "cheaper" experience. It may be the exact opposite, if for no other reason than they must have positive feedback to stay in business very long.
Jaco, Chris and many others here, are on the other end, They have put in the work, and have developed base clientele by providing quality services year after year. They have a known product for sale and that goes along ways. Tried, true and experience can never go wrong.
Anyway, like I said I have have never been there before, but hope to go sooner rather than later, and I don't know if any of this helps, I just thought I would give my perspective, for what it's worth.... And Thank You for getting the site back up Jerome!!

Cheers,
Mekaniks

jeff said:

.................. Hunt Hard safaris asked if anyone had done a $400 as opposed to less expensive hunts, which I have personally done. I hunted the EC at 400 a day and will say of 5 hunts in SA it was my worst, I hunted the NW the next year at $100 a day and it was way better, so I would not be a good one to ask . I realize that this one example doesn't mean this is the norm.

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That's one of the issues with point in time measurement. Too few data points to get a trend that is statistically useful.

Why do some outfitters demanding higher day rates see such a need for warning potential clients against outfitters charging lower day rates?
Is it because they care about my economy or their own?

hunthardsafaris said:

On a side note and this is only the way I see it. If you are paying 2000$+ for a Kudu in Limpopo and 1200$ for a EC Kudu on avarage, you are paying per inch. Call a spade a spade. You will expect a better sized trophy in Limpopo (53"+) than the one in the EC (47"+) anyone that wants a 60" bull knows they dont come cheap either.

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I wondered about that when I first saw "Kudu" prices. $800 vs $1400. Crazy people selling Kudu or what.
It took a while to find that the pattern was related to locality. Then some further research to figure out EC Kudu vs Greater Kudu (I'll skip then debate on that one)
So, I guess you can say it is paying by the inch because of the realities in size difference based on locality.

The true paying by the inch is what makes me crazy. "Grocery store"
"60 incher on isle 8"
The attraction for me to a 60 inch Kudu is the fact that he is on a self sustaining property and has managed to elude hunters long enough that he got that big. Not that I paid enough money to have kept him safe in a boma until I bought him in isle 8.

hunthardsafaris said:

I have seen too many "budget" packages were there are substandard trophies being taken. ..............

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Most first time hunters don't know what a "good" trophy is. I can't blame them.
I spent ten days in PH school so I would know how to hunt and know what a good trophy was for my own sake.
My buddies who came along with me on two hunts still can not tell (in the field) what a good trophy is.
They sure know when it gets in the salt shed beside a true monster.
So, how are they to know they are taking substandard trophies. Research and study, and that's it.

hunthardsafaris said:

Whatever it costs to hunt SA is still cheap compared to European hunting. ............

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That makes me feel very fortunate. A totally different reality in your neck of the woods compared to mine.
We have zero paid hunting. It's illegal.
Nice to live in the second largest country on the planet.

actionbob thanks for what you said and lets just say I am paying the price for not being a better student in english and writing classes.Plus I never took a typing class at all.Now let me talk with you on the phone or in person and I am much better getting my points across.

I do think you and must get my points and honestly I just try and help if I can.Sometimes I dont get across the point I want to make and for that I am sorry.As you I would love to hunt with each outfitter on here even the ones I give a hard time to.Knowing full well we are all hunters on here and have alot to share if we would get the chance.

I myself have no hard feeling for those I may not be able hunt with because I cant afford to.That is part of life and we all just can not do everything we want all the time.I just want them to understand some of us may just want to hunt that bad we search out the best deals for ourselves so we to can enjoy the sport we all love.

I do think there warning are done because of the bad hunts that are out there.With that said I think alot more of those bad hunts were years ago.Yes they may still happen from time to time but not at the rate they did.I just hope we can find away to stop the word cheaper or bad hunt because someone finds a deal that some think is to good to be true.

Would also be great to see the new guys not having to hear how much better someone is because they have been in business longer.Pretty sure at one point everyone is new in business.Let guys fail on there own not by trying to scare guys away because of how long someone has been in business.I get it is a way to sell something by telling them your better because you around longer.There is just better ways to do that then how I see it happen sometimes on threads.

I do believe alot of people did learn stuff from this thread just like most of the post on the best hunting site on the web.

Royal27 said:

I'm with Bill on this one. Much rather see any of yall, myself included, in a pink shirt than in those short shorts!!!!

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Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

KMG Hunting Safaris said:

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

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For me it is not about hating at all those shorts scare me alittle.LOL
Marius you know you want to come over to the pinkside and join the party

Norwegianwoods said:

Why do some outfitters demanding higher day rates see such a need for warning potential clients against outfitters charging lower day rates?
Is it because they care about my economy or their own?

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Norwegianwoods, I don't think that anybody is warning clients against booking with any specific Outfitters. My interpretation of this thread is simple, the day rates that are being charged (for what ever reason) seem to be bordering on a loss and yes, I understand the marketing issue of building a client base.

Even if I could, I wouldn't charge a day rate where I could possibly loose money. Great deals are there for a reason and everybody has a chance of booking a good deal through most Outfitters, especially on AH. Saying this, many more specials would be available if everybody could compete...

Regarding other comments and observations:

As mentioned above, Loyalty is the most prized "possession" when it comes to clients and outfitters but I doubt that this is more than 40% across the board and is probably less when people move from one "good deal" to the next.

The comparison between different Outfitters "hunts" and cars is incorrect in my eyes - Taking all the factors into consideration, African Hunting should be seen as the "BMW" and thus shouldn't be undersold as a Toyota (Of which I am a fan).

I probably understand this situation better than most as I'm starting out with my Business but being a new outfitter doesn't mean I offer anything more or less than others in SA. I also understand that to be successful will probably take 5 years or more and I'm willing to work hard for what I want without underselling myself, service, hunting areas or trophies.

Norwegianwoods said:

Why do some outfitters demanding higher day rates see such a need for warning potential clients against outfitters charging lower day rates?
Is it because they care about my economy or their own?

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Concern for both the clients and the industry in my mind.

I know on Jaco's part, from long observation and personal discussion, he has shared his honest opinion on the matter.
He does feel responsible. The same way I felt responsible when a lazy ass Outfitter screwed bluey on his hunt to Canada.
I personalized it and it pisses me off that someone came here and spent money and the outfitter hired lazy drunks to guide him.
I won't change the industry myself but I will sure help my fellow hunters keep their eyes open to try and reduce repeats.

When I read a report and see someone making the "best of it", I'm pissed off that they have to do so.

It is difficult to appear neutral, Jaco is not.
That does not however, preclude honest concern and empathy and sharing personal frustration.
He has never apologized about his rates, nor will he any time soon.
I have never hunted with Jaco but he has certainly conducted himself well in my midst, both electronically and in person.

Chris has also always conducted himself well electronically and I am looking forward to meeting him in person.
(Since he is insane enough to brave the cold and come visit)
Chris has raised a good topic and one that is obviously near and dear to a lot of people. Value of money.
It is not in strict correlation to price or it would be so simple. A huge number of factors come into play and that is what makes this a very difficult discussion to conclude with certainty.

billc said:

actionbob thanks for what you said and lets just say I am paying the price for not being a better student in english and writing classes.Plus I never took a typing class at all.
............... .

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I'll ask that you do a couple of things for my sake in reading your posts bill.
1. Hit the space bar after you hit a period!

Hit the "quote" and "reply" button to bring peoples comments into your posts. It will help them be more clear and readable.

billc said:

For me it is not about hating at all those shorts scare me alittle.LOL
Marius you know you want to come over to the pinkside and join the party

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Not even Chuck Norris could rock these shorts.

Arc Africa Hunting Safaris said:

As mentioned above, Loyalty is the most prized possession when it comes to clients and outfitters

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Very true statement. I have hunted RSA only once with an outfitter that is not on AH. I had a great time and amazing experience. I made it known to him when he came to the US in January of 2014 that in 2015 I would be hunting a lioness. Although there might be better places to hunt lions (and cheaper), I was set that I would hunt with his firm. Loyalty! I asked him 3 different times to build a lioness package for me. All three times his response was that he would not quote a lioness until 2015 the year of the hunt. At this point I had to look beyond my loyalty and find an outfitter willing to build such a package. With the lion hunting scare by the USFWS in full effect at the time that I wanted to book I needed someone to put together a pkg for me. I have now booked elsewhere and me and my loyalties have moved on. I did not book the cheapest place but the one that fit all my needs.

Yea bill I never took typing either and I struggle but thank God for spell checkers and the auto correct! Although both sneak up and bite me now and then.... I will admit I am an amazing two finger typist!

As for English, never did well myself in those classes and I don't have a high school diploma, but I put some effort in and try to live a lot.... Come to thin k of it, that was probably the problem I had in high school, living a lot!

I know it seems everytime I try to use the quote it does not work unless I quote the whole thing. I am trying believe it or not to post better. LOL


Brickburn I also get your points about chris and jaco but it can be dangerous painting with a broadbrush like they do sometimes. Just like we all know guys who got screwed on hunts it can happen on high or low cost hunts.

It is very easy to warn someone about hunts without saying cheaper all the time. You can sell hunts by saying my area is better or my record is this or that. Just like you like to say jaco and chris are saving someone or care about there industry which I have no doubt they do. I am trying to show the other said of that and can back up my comments with proof just like they can. If a hunter gets one extra day or one extra animal I helped a hunter out in my eyes. At the same time I dont think any outfitter will give more then they can because someone ask for more then they may advertise.

To me booking a hunt is like buying anything else.Everyone has there items priced for what they want.Nothing wrong with asking for them to do better. I know I deal with it ever day in my business with the question of cant you do better then that on the price.

billc said:

I know it seems everytime I try to use the quote it does not work unless I quote the whole thing. I am trying believe it or not to post better. LOL

I deal with it ever day in my business with the question of cant you do better then that on the price.

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Bill;
Quote the whole thing and then highlight and delete the parts you don't want, just leave the computer techy stuff between the brackets alone. Hit Quote and then reply and when it pops up, delete and then click below the bracketed stuff and start typing.

Hey, I resemble that guy always asking contractors to do better! Funny how they often can?

ActionBob said:

Bill;


Hey, I resemble that guy always asking contractors to do better! Funny how they often can?

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Bob you better hope no future customer of mine reads your post. If I need to lower a quote now I will have to pass that cost on to you.LOL To be honest I dont need to do it alot as I keep my prices as low as I can already. I do practice what I preach with lower cost as much as i can. Maybe that is why I will more then likely never get to hunt a lord derby eland.

Bill you got it to work! Now delete some of the extra space next time but don't touch those brackets.

You'll probably just have to wait for Dakota to buy that Eland hunt for you