Open Sighted 45-70 in Africa

blkpowder50 said:

i never said it doesnt penetrate enough! i think it does. i think it WILL kill anything in Africa. Ive just never hunted Africa,so i was thinking on my first hunt i should take something that could make up for a shot that was a hair off,etc. I know placement is key. I would feel good hunting with a 4570 if i was living in Africa.

Click to expand...

Methinks you misunderstood my last post. I was responding to the post above mine, not yours.

blkpowder50 said:

Im going after a great Cape buffalo bull and 2 plains game species,probably an Eland and a kudu. I would not necessarily use both calibers, maybe just one of the two big ones for the bull and a small bore for plains game.

Click to expand...

go with the .416 rigby and you can use it for all those species. as for the 45-70 question i would think it would be perfect for plains game up to eland if you are hunting in the typical bush terrain where your shots are going to be inside of 150yds ie most african hunting terrain. a big heavy bullet travelling at not warp speed... just what is needed. now mike as you brought up the 9.3x74 ......nah just joking.....

How about a Baikal 45/70 double? Just tossing it out for giggles

I'm not sure why a .458 cal, 400gr bullet of decent BC moving at over 2000fps, that produces over 4000ft/lbs of energy is deemed inadequate or problematic on buffalo. Not like it hasnt been done before. Is it the best choice? No. Is it adequate? Of course. There seems to be an ingrained prejudice towards the .45-70, perhaps due to those who try to attribute to it qualities it truly lacks. However given the ballistics above there is no reason it should be considered inadequate at typical buffalo ranges.

Cliffy said:

How about a Baikal 45/70 double? Just tossing it out for giggles

Click to expand...

I'm a pretty big fan of mine!

Cliffy said:

How about a Baikal 45/70 double? Just tossing it out for giggles

Click to expand...

if youre tossing it out,toss it this way, id like one!!

I doubt that the Biakal will handle the pressure of 2000 FPS with a 400 for very long. There are much better rifles that will handle that.
If you can $pend enough money to go on safari then don't 'cheap out' on your hardware, especially if the critter on the other end has horns, teeth or claws.

I think that if you can hunt an elephant with a bow then a 45-70 is just as acceptable in my 45-70 reloading book there is an article of a guy who was hunting cape buffalo and shot a bull the bullet went through both shoulders and hit a cow behind the bull sounds like enough penitration to me. I would take my 458 lott over any of my 45-70 but thats because it fits me better.

Amon458 said:

I think that if you can hunt an elephant with a bow then a 45-70 is just as acceptable in my 45-70 reloading book there is an article of a guy who was hunting cape buffalo and shot a bull the bullet went through both shoulders and hit a cow behind the bull sounds like enough penitration to me. I would take my 458 lott over any of my 45-70 but thats because it fits me better.

Click to expand...

decided to dig up an old 45-70 thread eh? this topic has been beaten to death, resurrected, then beaten to death again.

just because you can kill a moose with a 22 LR doesn't make the 22 LR a suitable cartridge for moose. if you use a 45-70 on a cape buffalo and it kills quickly, then great! if it fails to kill the animal and your PH gets killed while going after it, then you are responsible for his death.

there are too many easily obtained affordable cartridges out there that are perfectly suitable for dangerous game to warrant someone using a cartridge just barely qualified for the task.

-matt

A properly constructed .458 bullet of 400 grains at 2000 fps will kill a buffalo dead on a properly placed hunting shot. It will do that even at 1900 fps. That's irrespective of the case or rifle it comes out from.

Questions may arise on its suitability for a rear-end shot, but that's a backup shot on a departing buffalo, mostly a PH's shot.

Heck, for years the .458 WM was getting more like 1850-1900 fps, and its bad reputation came from improperly designed bullets and poor powders rather than low velocity.

I don't understand why people fixate on a particular caliber, good or bad, when talking about terminal ballistics - in which the blue blod line of the firearm or cartridge is totally irrelevant.

It has and does work, but really there are much better options...

Ado

Ado said:

It has and does work, but really there are much better options...

Ado

Click to expand...

I agree with Ado as well as with others here.

A buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring but, the question is:
"What's the point"?

Anyone who can afford a buffalo hunt, can also afford a proper buffalo rifle.

I took the 45-70 Marlin on my 2013 hunt. The PH was fine with me bringing it back for the lion and buff hunt this year. Yes there are faster heavy loads but where you put it matters. At the end of the day I bought a bigger rifle for DG but the 45-70 is more than suitable for plains game.

Velo Dog said:

I agree with Ado as well as with others here.

A buffalo could probably be taken with a well placed frozen herring but, the question is:
"What's the point"?

Anyone who can afford a buffalo hunt, can also afford a proper buffalo rifle.

Click to expand...

Define proper buffalo rifle.

Black 50..............I keep a 45-70 in Africa so I don't need to travel with a gun. This is a Ruger No 1. I have taken about 35 head of game with this rifle, although 17 of them have been springbok with cast loads. Many with 62 grains FFg black and an Oregon Trails Lazer cast 405 grain at 1234 fps. For longer shots and tougher game have used Leverevolution 325 grain bullets. These chronograph 1970 fps from my rifle's 22 inch bbl. Two inches high at 100 this load is about 5 inches low at 200, and has killed zebra and oryx nicely. I believe, but have no proof, that the 45-70, with something like 450 grain banded solids from Barnes, at around 1850 fps would kill anything easily. I used 490 grain hard cast once in Namibia, and all bullets exited oryx, kudu and zebra despite their 1450 fps velocity, and quartering entry. IMO most people use too much gun. An occasional bad hit can convince anyone that they need a more powerful caliber. And it goes on and on.
New bullets and powders allow the old Govt 45 to about duplicate the original 19th century wonder cartridge...........the 450 Rigby of 1898. It put a lot of 45 inch buffalo and 100 pound Jumbo on the dirt. These animals haven't changed much..........................FWB

sestoppelman said:

Define proper buffalo rifle.

Click to expand...

Read the chapter dealing with this exact topic in Dr. Robertson's excellent book "Africa's Most Deadly".

Otherwise, in synopsis, he recommends rifles such as the Mauser 98, Brno 600, CZ 550, and others, beginning in caliber .375 H&H or perhaps larger, depending on the individual hunter's ability.

As a side note, he has a rifle for recoil shy clients in 9.3x62 that has taken many buffalo but I will add that this caliber is legal in some countries for heavy dangerous game and not legal in others for that.

My favorite PH (Hannes Swanepoel) has mentioned to me that he really likes the Ruger No1, because when he sees a client with that particular rifle, he recons that client is a shooter and very likely to put that first bullet exactly where it needs to go, including for heavy dangerous game.

Based on that endorsement, I will guess the Ruger No1, in .375 H&H or larger, would likely be a "proper buffalo rifle", in terms of clients selecting it.

If for some unknown reason I decided that I simply must shoot a buffalo with the .45-70, for sure I would select the Ruger No1.

However, I totally cannot imagine what sort of mushrooms I'd have to eat in order to not want to choose a .404, or .416 (or .450 No2 NE like I did) or .500 Jeffery, etc.

I am not convinced that a 300 .375 cal bullet at 2500fps is that much better killer of anything than a 400gr .458 cal bullet at near 2000fps. I just don't buy it. Modern rifles, powders, and bullets make the .45-70 a much more suitable choice than old Govt loadings out of a Trapdoor Springfield. Properly loaded a .45-70 is gonna hit a buffalo a hell of a lot harder than a 9.3x62 which is not that much more cartridge than a .35 Whelen, a bit more but not lots. People should just never mind what its called and look at what it can do when loaded up in a strong rifle, like a Ruger No.1 or even a Marlin 95. I shoot the .450 Marlin in my 95 and there is not a gnats ass difference between it and the .45-70.

For what it's worth if my 45-70 was something other than a single shot original 73 trap door I would take it to Africa in an instant. I have confidence in the round and have seen many bison fall stone dead at the hands of the gun. Is it the "ideal" DG cartridge, no. Will it work given one doesn't try to push it too far, yes. At close range I believe it would effectively kill anything on earth. Less we forget karimojo bell killed elephants very effectively with a hellava lot less A 45-70 in a good lever gun with high quality ammo would gett'er done. In style none the less. Just my opinion.

gizmo said:

For what it's worth if my 45-70 was something other than a single shot original 73 trap door I would take it to Africa in an instant. I have confidence in the round and have seen many bison fall stone dead at the hands of the gun. Is it the "ideal" DG cartridge, no. Will it work given one doesn't try to push it too far, yes. At close range I believe it would effectively kill anything on earth. Less we forget karimojo bell killed elephants very effectively with a hellava lot less A 45-70 in a good lever gun with high quality ammo would gett'er done. In style none the less. Just my opinion.

Click to expand...

Hi Gizmo,

Bell wrote about himself.
This included much daring-do about taking many very large elephants, by means of very small caliber rifles again - according to himself.
These included the 6.5x54 Mannlicher, .275 Rigby (7x57 Mauser), .303British and .318 Westley Richards.
He barely mentions in any of his accounts the fact that he also used a Jeffery built 450/400 3" Nitro double.
Likewise, throughout his very successful ivory hunting career, he ordered not one but TWO .416 caliber Mausers from Rigby (according to Rigby's records), along with 1,000 rounds of live ammunition to fit same, loaded with "Solids".
Refer to Tony Sanchez-Arino's excellent book, "Elephant Hunters" (Safari Press), page 79.
Bell was for sure an incredible man but, after checking up on the above thoughts, if you still believe he sacked hundreds of elephants with the 7x57, you have much stronger faith than I do.

Cheers,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog I don't doubt this in the least and you definitly know more about it than I do but.... I also believe that he did in fact kill many elephants with a 7x57. Maybe not hundreds but several. My only point is that it can be done. I definitely wouldn't go trekking after jumbo with a 7x57 but I think it's reasonible to believe that a 45-70 would effectively kill an elephant in the right circumstances.