The lion bone trade sad sad news for all!

Hi guy’s

We have had some pretty good discussions over the last few months but there is something that I think everyone should read.

Please follow the link and read about the new danger lions are facing both captive and free ranging lions will be dramatically affected should this trade become nearly as popular as the rhino horn trade.

This is very worrying to myself I would like to get some feedback from my fellow hunters.
Link: Bones of Contention

Cheers Louis

That is sad and scary news. Makes you wonder if the lion breeders will just start growing lions for that market. At least that would be better than poaching wild lions but the whole thing is rather upsetting.

After making my original post I was left wondering?

Are we really focusing on what is important and trying to conserve hunting for future generations or will we make the same mistakes that the hunters before us did and that is to focus on the now and who does what “playing the old game of pointing fingers”?

Sure it is great to have a public forum dedicated to hunting and the conservation of our sport but should we not maybe just leave our internal moral discussions for later and focus on the conservation of an species that makes Africa everything it is?

Guy’s this new trend is very disturbing to myself as mentioned before and whether we support captive bred lion hunts is irrelevant if one takes in to consideration the danger that this new trade has to offer.

Should captive bred lions be closed down almost all of these lions will be euthanized and that will leave us in quite the predicament since a lot of these bones will surely make their way in to the trade and there will once again be a growth in popularity not to mention what supply and demand will do to the wild lion populations especially if there are no captive bread lions to help share the load.

More pressure on the wild lion population will most certainly lead to pouching in parks soon as well as numerous criminal activities to try and kill lions for their bones.

The next step will be total closure of lion hunting in the whole of Africa since we will battle just to keep the population alive never mind hunting them.

Cheers Louis

Lions, tigers and bears...............oh my!

It is a sad, but simple truth, that the Asian market is responsible for approximately 95% of the worlds illegal trade in endangered species. In fact the Asian market is the driving force behind the trade in animals parts wold wide and it is most certainly a negative contributing factor in the illegal trade and poaching of most of our mega fauna.

Ivory, rhino horn, tiger parts, lion parts, bear gall, venomous snakes, shark fins, herring roe, monkies, whale meat and teeth, velvet antler................the list goes on.

Until we can curb the mindset of the entire Asian community, these problems will never end. We might think things are improving, but they are not. The minute a crack opens somewhere they stick a bar in it and start prying. If you don't believe me just take a stroll in the China Town of any major urban center and walk into a traditional medicine store. You will be amazed at what you see and I hope, more than a little disturbed.

Another disturbing trend and very sad indeed.
According to this article the plight of the Siberian and Asian tigers may now be shifting to the African lion.
The governments of the listed countries and others including the USA need to make education of traditional Chinese medicine practitioners a priority.As long as myths are passed to the next generations there will continue to be a perceived need,and in turn a demand for legally and or illegally obtained flora and fauna.With all due respect to the citizens of the listed countries, I do understand that not all practice this quackery, and I would encourage those who do not, to educate those who do as to the future of the survival of such magnificent animals as the lion,tiger,elephant,rhino etc....
When you think of the leaps and bounds the average Chinese citizen has made in the last 20 years, and then think of the increased earned disposable income that they have now, I believe that without education this problem is going to increase exponentially.
I read an article that mentioned the Chinese government in particular was planning to supply their citizens, traveling to the World Cup of Soccer,with pamphlets which explain that smuggling of ivory from RSA will not be tolerated. That's a good start and I applaud loudly.
Perhaps, in time these practices will change but, if you look at the track record,especially of the listed countries in regard to this subject, I do not think I'll hold my breath as I wait for change.

Louis,

Its a great thread you have started & it is certainly a very disturbing news & occurance, wish not to ever see the mangnificient LION trailing on the road to doom as has the beautiful Royal Bengal Tiger which are only 1411 left in the wild in India , and twice as many are alive in the infamous captive tiger breeding farms in China , for traditional chinese medicines, as evidently reported by lots of conservation groups, striving hard to bring a stop to it.
The iniquitous poaching due to the demand and catering to such medicines has sealed the fate of lots of feline & other species . Very strong & staid steps have to be taken to curb this all down or else the posterity would just view these species may be in the zoo or in the photo books.
Very sad & unfortunate the world has to realize the importance for the existence of such bravura animals.

Monish

Thanks to all that have read the article.

I feel that it is of the utmost importance that we make sure as ethical hunters that when we have the opportunity to hunt a lion we are aware of what happens to the bones to ensure that we are not contributing to this trade.

Once again I would like to thank all Members who have contributed to this topic and realized its importance.

Yours sincerely

Louis van Bergen

Nicely thought out response Monish.

So what is the answer?

In my life time we have seen an end to tiger hunting, an end to jaguar hunting, and we now find the African lion is in less than a stellar position throughout most of Africa. The Bengal and Amur (Siberian) tigers, despite a myriad of 'plans', 'conservation strategies' and the creation of parks and sanctuaries have once again started the steady downward spiral towards extinction in the wild. CITES and a host of local laws around the globe that either restrict or prohibit the trade in animal parts have failed to stop the poaching.

Certainly greed and the demand for use in traditional medicines are a huge part of the problem, but the burgeoning global population and its insatiable need to consume the land base is equally at fault. The big cats simply do not adjust to life in areas with too many people. Conflict is a surety.

The infamous tiger farms that Monish speaks of are certainly distasteful to many. The thought of an apex predator like the tiger being raised in pens to be reduced to tiger bones, wiskers and what not for traditional medicines is abhorrent to most of us. Some of the NGO's insist that these 'tiger farms' make it easier for poachers to market and ship the parts of poached cats with the wildlife parts from these farms. On the other hand there are well respected wildlife authorities who believe they reduce the pressure on the wild cats, which could increase enormously and finish them off once and for all if the tiger farms were abolished.

Lets think about this for a minute. Logically is there any difference between raising tigers, or lions for that matter, to be used to supply the needs of the traditional medicine market in Asia and pen raising lions in RSA to release on game farms to be shot by 'lion hunters'? One of the arguments used by many hunters, PH's and game farm operators to support the existence of lion farms that provide animals for hunters to kill on game farms is that it probably reduces the pressure on wild lions. That the lion farms are filling a need.

What is the difference between a lion or a tiger being raised on a farm and then killed by a 'hunters' bullet to be made into a rug for the trophy room and one that is killed on farm with the hide marketed locally and the rest of the carcass utilized for traditional medicine? Is the lion rug from a farmed lion that was killed by a 'hunters' bullet somehow more socially and morally acceptable than a cat euthanized on farm for its parts?

It has been clearly demonstrated that where hunting is prohibited in any form for the big cats and they are 'protected', their numbers continue to drop and both India and Kenya are prime examples. Conflicts over land use and livestock, along with human fear and ignorance, slowly but surely push the cats towards the brink of local extirpation.

I think everyone needs to step back and take a real hard look at the global situation and, just as importantly, look deep within at our own beliefs and convictions. I see many instances where logic is not being used as the basis for establishing new strategies to deal with these issues and hunters are just as guilty of standing firmly behind personal convictions that are based purely on emotion and their individual views of what is morally acceptable instead of what is logical.

The Asian trade in animal parts for traditional medicine is not going to disappear in my life time and you do not change the beliefs held by any culture over night............it will take decades and several generations to accomplish that. In the interim we may be forced to look at new conservation strategies, draconian enforcement and perhaps even programs that we find morally offensive to ensure that we have big cats in the wild ten or twenty years from now.

Kelly. So, again we ( Europeans/Americans ) shall point a finger to China ans say, "shame on you"! Chinese medicine culture of 5000 years, against our "modern" tradition of 200 years ? Still in China, "bones" from tiger etc, are as 99% bones from cow, goat, dogs cats and what what.... 15 years ago China was closed, and the BIG import was to Hong Kong, ruled by the British empire..."The bad guys" are still and as always the sellers ! Not the stupid poachers, but the people with the money ordering these killings of rare animals, and the selling to so many willing buyers around the world. So, what to do ? The punishment of the poaching, handling and selling, has to be in the same level as drug business, when they get caught, give them no mercy, at least life time in prison, or as the King of Burma once said, "Put all criminals in a big glass cage with hundreds of venomous snakes, and make sure that rest of town can witness the result !"
Mikehh375

Thanks Tom ! The emotional aspect does seep in .

Monish

Kelly,

Thanks for all the valuable inputs on the smoldering topic across the globe raised by Louis on to the forum.
The emotional aspect has to be attached to incline ourselves for the consideration of well being of these beautiful gods creations. The magnificence of Royal Bengal Tiger has been aptly put forth in ryme by William Blake ::

TIGER, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder and what art
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand and what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? What dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors clasp?

When the stars threw down their spears,
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did He smile His work to see?
Did He who made the lamb make thee?

Tiger, tiger, burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

Till 1972 , India was one of the most sought after hunting destinations in the world for its wonderful fauna and the supreme Tiger , and Project Tiger the conservation programme was put in force to save the wild life aided by WWF, has failed utterly , and today we just have 1411 tigers left in which I presume half may the paper tigers.

The farm breeding of the Tigers is not for the canned hunts of for some trophy wall decorations, but instead they are bred to grow in age and provide bones and all the tiger has on him to produce so called traditioanl medicines and make men more manly , a damn quackish products. The Tiger cartel as infamed as it is has the total control on this vile trade.

Lots of coseravtion policies , framework and laws have been formulated in the airconditioned meeting rooms ,but after 38 years we stand there where we had begun, the bad wild life management and redtapism has inflicted a blow to all these programmes and no more can you hear the reverberating calls in the forest valleys of this glorious animal , which I did experience in long past years during my wilderness wanderings.

The ground reality is that we have lost out in preserving the national animal, as these 2 countries have more of human beings than all the animals combined,I believe, and as the fact is remains is that the human life in itself holds no much of value so where do we think of animals to have a free hold life to live on. This is a very scary and a unfortunate situation as of today. The TIGER fire is dying out and so would be gone the beautiful creatures in the times to come.

We all do pursue the passion of hunting with ethics and respect and would certainly love to see the wild life to thrive and managed well for positive hunting routines in the future times in the countries where we still can afford to hunt where the consevation plans did bring in laurels. As Uganda is good example of consevation which has opened its door again for the legal hunting system after 2 decades of ban.

Its very frustrating to see the decline in the population of flaura & fauna, and soon if no stern actions are taken will have all the fine wild species going extinct, and shall not be there for the posterity.

I am not a authority on tigers or conservation programmes but hold very dear to my heart the well being of the wild life in my country and other parts of the world. the emotional touch is my sole perception and may be it makes one think from the animals point of view.

Its excruciating to see the wild life being decimated for profits for the few with no ethics but with thought for annihilation.

Monish

Kelly I think you summed it up very nicely for us.

Mikehh 375 not a bad idea LOL.

Thanks for your great input.

Cheers Louis

Spiral Horn Safaris said:

After making my original post I was left wondering?

Are we really focusing on what is important and trying to conserve hunting for future generations or will we make the same mistakes that the hunters before us did and that is to focus on the now and who does what “playing the old game of pointing fingers”?

Sure it is great to have a public forum dedicated to hunting and the conservation of our sport but should we not maybe just leave our internal moral discussions for later and focus on the conservation of an species that makes Africa everything it is?

Guy’s this new trend is very disturbing to myself as mentioned before and whether we support captive bred lion hunts is irrelevant if one takes in to consideration the danger that this new trade has to offer.

Should captive bred lions be closed down almost all of these lions will be euthanized and that will leave us in quite the predicament since a lot of these bones will surely make their way in to the trade and there will once again be a growth in popularity not to mention what supply and demand will do to the wild lion populations especially if there are no captive bread lions to help share the load.

More pressure on the wild lion population will most certainly lead to pouching in parks soon as well as numerous criminal activities to try and kill lions for their bones.

The next step will be total closure of lion hunting in the whole of Africa since we will battle just to keep the population alive never mind hunting them.

Cheers Louis

Click to expand...

I have the exact same feeling, and also I have started saving money to hunt a free range, fair chase lion male but I truly believe that if canned lion hunts are to be stopped the price of a fair chase lion hunt will be forever out of my reach, I may sound selfish, but am I really?

I still say free Viagra for China.

i think as south africans we have to start conserving our lions
it is very sad to see this happening and conservation programs have to start to save the lions!

All the best
Ibie