Speaking of Lions and Bullets...

I have never hunted a lion, so am not sure whether one goes heavy and slow or light and fast. I will be hunting one around next May, and here are my options for the guns I could be taking. Bullet drop is not an issue at the short distance the target will be. Recoil is immaterial as well.

.500 caliber 450gr HP @2450fps = 5999ft/lbs or 335gr HP @2800fps = 5833ft/lbs at the muzzle.
.458 caliber 420gr HP @2300fps = 4934ft/lbs or 250gr HP @2900fps = 4669ft/lbs at the muzzle.

As far as the energy difference goes between heavy and light in each caliber there does not seem to be big difference. However, I do not know what the impact would be like on a thin skinned animal.

Would appreciate any feedback, especially from those that have hunted cats.

Hi Tanks,

Between the two choices you will pick from i would go with a scoped rifle.

Therefore the 458 and 420 gr bullets.

however why did you not have in your options a 500 gr soft?

No experience from me to offer, but I did speak to our friend Michael on this subject and we were of the same opinion. Light and fast.

Lion are thin skinned. It's highly unlikely your PH is going to have you shoot the south end of a north moving lion, at least not on the first shot. Therefore the worst shot here would be frontal. The 250gr / 335 grain options are still going to give you all the penetration you'll need but with a lot more shock, and just as large a wound channel as the big heavies.

Any of the bullet weights you mention will get the job done, use a fast expanding bullet that holds together. I would prefer the 335gr @ 2800fps, heavy enough to penetrate and fast enough to deliver a punch to the Lions highly developed central nervous system. Happy Hunting

Either will do the job just fine. I used a 416 Ruger with Hornady DGX 400grain that moves at about 2400 ft/sec. As you can see my second almost head on shot went clean through the chest, exited the back rib cage and then passed through the thigh of my lioness.

Tanks said:

I have never hunted a lion, so am not sure whether one goes heavy and slow or light and fast. I will be hunting one around next May, and here are my options for the guns I could be taking. Bullet drop is not an issue at the short distance the target will be. Recoil is immaterial as well.

.500 caliber 450gr HP @2450fps = 5999ft/lbs or 335gr HP @2800fps = 5833ft/lbs at the muzzle.
.458 caliber 420gr HP @2300fps = 4934ft/lbs or 250gr HP @2900fps = 4669ft/lbs at the muzzle.

As far as the energy difference goes between heavy and light in each caliber there does not seem to be big difference. However, I do not know what the impact would be like on a thin skinned animal.

Would appreciate any feedback, especially from those that have hunted cats.

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Hello Tanks,

The answer to your excellent question is well stated in Dr. Kevin "Doctari" Robertson's excellent book, "The Perfect Shot" (Safari Press Publishing).

There is a chapter in same regarding lion hunting, to include what calibers and specific brands/types of bullets are recommendable.

Not having shot any feline larger than common domestic house cats (used to cull feral ones with the local Game Warden in The Colusa Wildlife Refuge, in California, thirty something years ago), my opinion of what bullet is proper for Lion is without any experience to back it up.

I will however submit that my experiences with shooting animals with hollow point bullets, both in rifles and hand gun calibers, has been so erratic/dismal that I would not personally use any HP bullet for anything except paper targets and such.

It is therefore that if I were booking a lion hunt, I would re-read the above described chapter in Dr. Robertson's mentioned book, and heavily consult my chosen PH on this question.

I am very fond of round nose softs for all of my personal experiences in hunting with them so far, out to around 300 yds but, I would abandon that idea if my PH told me he rather didn't like it.

I am envious of you guys who can afford to hunt lion but nonetheless, I feel very blessed to hunt other species here and in Africa, because I have nothing to complain about in that regard.

Cheerio,
Velo Dog.

Velo Dog said:

Hello Tanks,
...

I will however submit that my experiences with shooting animals with hollow point bullets, both in rifles and hand gun calibers, has been so erratic/dismal that I would not personally use any HP bullet for anything except paper targets and such.

....

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I suggest you check out Cutting Edge Bullets, their Safari Raptors work. I have used them on bear, zebra, and elk. They have been devastating. Good idea to talk to the PH though, I think he likes heavier bullets.

Tanks said:

I suggest you check out Cutting Edge Bullets, their Safari Raptors work. I have used them on bear, zebra, and elk. They have been devastating. Good idea to talk to the PH though, I think he likes heavier bullets.

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Thanks, I will check them out at some stage.

Tanks, I have a .500 mdm similar to yours and have used it fairly extensively on buffalo with the 450gn Raptors, and have seen Michael using both the 335's and 365gn's, on buffalo mind you !

On a relatively light skinned animal (lion) I could see those 335's at 2800 creating some tremendous destruction which will result in some graphic wound channels.

That's what i'd take if I was lucky enough to be going.
I'm a big fan of the big .500 MDM.

Best of luck with your hunt,

Paul.

Both of the calibres and bullets will work well. Lions are susceptible to shock because of their highly developed central nervous system. Soft points with a relatively high velocity normally works the best. Lion are soft skinned and you do not need a premium grade bullet.

Sometimes people get so caught up in the euphoria of bullets and their ballistic integrity, discussing hydrostatic shock, speed, sectional density, etc etc. Gentlemen, it all boils down to bullet placement. If you have absolute confidence in the weapon you are handling and that it shoots where you aim, then forget about the mumbo jumbo, place your cross hairs in the right place and gently squeeze the trigger.

What kind of penetration is needed to strike the vitals of a lion, or any of the chosen quarry for that matter? The legal parameters for lion shooting allow for adequate speed and penetration. Both weapons discussed in this thread will do the job quickly and efficiently, but will you allow the weapon to perform through your own ability? I believe this holds true for all game animals worldwide.

Again, be comfortable with your weapon and its ability. Keep it simple.

Neil-PH said:

Sometimes people get so caught up in the euphoria of bullets and their ballistic integrity, discussing hydrostatic shock, speed, sectional density, etc etc. Gentlemen, it all boils down to bullet placement. If you have absolute confidence in the weapon you are handling and that it shoots where you aim, then forget about the mumbo jumbo, place your cross hairs in the right place and gently squeeze the trigger.

What kind of penetration is needed to strike the vitals of a lion, or any of the chosen quarry for that matter? The legal parameters for lion shooting allow for adequate speed and penetration. Both weapons discussed in this thread will do the job quickly and efficiently, but will you allow the weapon to perform through your own ability? I believe this holds true for all game animals worldwide.

Again, be comfortable with your weapon and its ability. Keep it simple.

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Excellent advice. Too easy to overthink.

CAustin said:

Either will do the job just fine. I used a 416 Ruger with Hornady DGX 400grain that moves at about 2400 ft/sec. As you can see my second almost head on shot went clean through the chest, exited the back rib cage and then passed through the thigh of my lioness.
View attachment 34235

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I'm really glad to hear that load worked as it is the exact same load/rifle combo I will be hunting my lion and buff this summer with. I plan on having some solids just incase for the buff too.

Tanks, I know you like CEB so what about the 295gr safari Raptor? this might stabilize a bit better then the 250gr and would still give you lots of velocity.

-matt

matt85 said:

Tanks, I know you like CEB so what about the 295gr safari Raptor? this might stabilize a bit better then the 250gr and would still give you lots of velocity.

-matt

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I can't put a tip on the 295 as it would not fit in the magazine. A tipped 250gr has a better BC and can be used as a universal bullet out to 300 yards for plains game as well. Not to mention, I just ordered 200 of each of those bullets mentioned in the OP .

Paw Print said:

Both of the calibres and bullets will work well. Lions are susceptible to shock because of their highly developed central nervous system. Soft points with a relatively high velocity normally works the best. Lion are soft skinned and you do not need a premium grade bullet.

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I agree, if I can with only one Lion under my belt to date. I used Hornady Interlock 300gr round nose on my Lion as loaded in cheap old Federal Blue Box, and the effect was everything I could hope for. I've used the same extremely soft bullet on numerous bears here in Northern Canada with excellent results, and the bears are far more robustly built than the Lions. Lots of Timberwolves drop to them too, and the wounds are spectacular. I think for anything light and built for speed, as in under 500lbs / 225kgs'ish, a conventional bullet can possibly even be one of the better choices at times. I'm the first guy to load Barnes for big, thick stuff, but the last on predators, even big ones. I like lead in those bullets. I'd opt for your .458 if that's what you have, with a well stoked conventional bullet. A .375 is plenty too if you have one, mind you, as a primary gun on Lion.

Ardent, I've shot a bunch of bears, mostly with 150g Partitions out of my 270 Winchester, but on my one brown bear I used a 375 shooting 300g A-Frames. One shot did the job beautifully though he did make it into the thick stuff (which is when the fun begins!). Do you feel the A-Frames are a little too stout for bear as well as lion? Might my brown bear's wound channel might have been a little bigger with an Accubond or a Partition?





Not trying to hijack your thread Tanks ...

Nice brown! Envious, I keep putting in for our coastal draw here in British Columbia right below the Alaska pan handle, long odds but they come around, and at $100 total cost for the hunt (tag) except for fuel cannot complain in having to wait. Below are my opinions, afraid they aren't science and are just my personal preferences.

I'm in a similar boat but you have me beat on big bears as I've yet to take a coastal, only inland, lost count of the black bears unfortunately. Amongst others I've used the TSX, and cheap Hornady RN, with good shot placement as we both know they both have the same result, quickly dead bears. Believe the same holds for Lion. I did have an inland with the Hornady round nose that did exactly the same thing as your coastal, took off and promptly died in the thick stuff. That's a follow up that challenges anything in Africa by the way as you know for tenseness.

I'm not one to subscribe so much to shock, I've seen it, but certainly find it unreliable and a spotty science. Suppose my stance is I've found the very soft bullets work at least as well as the very hard premiums on bear, and I am starting the believe they may even have an edge, Lion I would see as the same and I chambered cheap Hornady softs for it. This is definitely not something I can prove, though I'll try and develop a strong opinion one day. At the very least, they certainly don't handicap the large predator hunter (very soft bullets) in my experience, and may offer better "shock". Maybe...