How much freedom does the client have?

Mike70560 · Nov 19, 2014

Ruark said:
I've really enjoyed reading this forum, and appreciate the warm welcomes to my introduction.

I'd like to ask a question about the client's "freedom," and by that I mean what the client is allowed to do, or rather, how much authority the PH has over what the client does. If I ever go on that African dream hunt, that would be important to me. Suppose, for example, on the DG (buff, lion, elephant) I wanted to:

1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? Would a PH allow it?

Cheers,
Ruark

Remember it is your hunt and within reason you should talk to your PH about certain things such as trophy size expectations, follow up shots, your ability to walk, etc; however no PH will allow you to do anything that will get you killed.

1) I have been on 6 dangerous game safaris and have never had a gunbearer. Typically it will be you, the PH, a tracker, and a game scout. In my experience the tracker and game scout will stay behind at some point for the final follow up. There is no PH I know willing to risk the life of his tracker (or client) to stroke a client's ego.

2) That is a ridiculous statement. It is something a good PH tries to avoid at all cost.

3) A good "red dot" scope is fine. My eyes still allow me to use a double with iron sights.

4) I have been on every follow up on the 10 buffalo, one leopard, and three elephants I have shot. Some were dead right there, some were dead within sight, and a couple required serious follow up. If your PH has confidence in your ability you will walk with him on the follow up. If it is a long follow up the tracker will go first. At some point it will be just you and the PH. If you can handle your rifle the PH will not shoot. No way he will allow you to walkup on a wounded animal alone, especially on the first safari. In the last few years several PHs have been killed and wounded cleaning up messes from clients. There is a reason it is called dangerous game.

If you are going just for seeking thrill you will miss the best Africa has to offer. Hunting dangerous game is exciting, for me the kill is actually anti-climatic at times. There is nothing like working a herd of 50 elephants looking for a tuskless in thick green scrub mopane, not seeing one, and leaving the herd without being detected. Or maybe stalking a small herd of buffalo, crawling on your belly the last 75 yards after tracking them for 10 kilometers, undetected and shooting the buffalo you have hunted for the last several days. Hunting Africa is feeling the wind on the back of your neck when you are 30 yards from a herd of elephants knowing all hell is about to break loose. It is hearing and feeling an elephant trumpet just because he can. It is the smell of buffalo when you cannot see them. It is being amazed the ability of the tracker to hear and see game in ways I can only dream. It is the birds, spiders, plants, and multitudes of game you can see.

I just returned yesterday from Zim on a buffalo and elephant hunt, so these things are fresh in my mind.

All that being said, Cam Greig offers self guided hunts in Cameroon. You can google his name and find his contact info, although I think it would be a foolhardy decision for a first safari.

BRICKBURN · Nov 19, 2014

Mike70560 said:
…..
I just returned yesterday from Zim on a buffalo and elephant hunt, so these things are fresh in my mind.
………..

While it's so fresh I am sure the hunting report is already started!!. Waiting…..

Great insight Mike.

Red Leg · Nov 19, 2014

Mike70560 said:
Remember it is your hunt and within reason you should talk to your PH about certain things such as trophy size expectations, follow up shots, your ability to walk, etc; however no PH will allow you to do anything that will get you killed.

1) I have been on 6 dangerous game safaris and have never had a gunbearer. Typically it will be you, the PH, a tracker, and a game scout. In my experience the tracker and game scout will stay behind at some point for the final follow up. There is no PH I know willing to risk the life of his tracker (or client) to stroke a client's ego.

2) That is a ridiculous statement. It is something a good PH tries to avoid at all cost.

3) A good "red dot" scope is fine. My eyes still allow me to use a double with iron sights.

4) I have been on every follow up on the 10 buffalo, one leopard, and three elephants I have shot. Some were dead right there, some were dead within sight, and a couple required serious follow up. If your PH has confidence in your ability you will walk with him on the follow up. If it is a long follow up the tracker will go first. At some point it will be just you and the PH. If you can handle your rifle the PH will not shoot. No way he will allow you to walkup on a wounded animal alone, especially on the first safari. In the last few years several PHs have been killed and wounded cleaning up messes from clients. There is a reason it is called dangerous game.

If you are going just for seeking thrill you will miss the best Africa has to offer. Hunting dangerous game is exciting, for me the kill is actually anti-climatic at times. There is nothing like working a herd of 50 elephants looking for a tuskless in thick green scrub mopane, not seeing one, and leaving the herd without being detected. Or maybe stalking a small herd of buffalo, crawling on your belly the last 75 yards after tracking them for 10 kilometers, undetected and shooting the buffalo you have hunted for the last several days. Hunting Africa is feeling the wind on the back of your neck when you are 30 yards from a herd of elephants knowing all hell is about to break loose. It is hearing and feeling an elephant trumpet just because he can. It is the smell of buffalo when you cannot see them. It is being amazed the ability of the tracker to hear and see game in ways I can only dream. It is the birds, spiders, plants, and multitudes of game you can see.

I just returned yesterday from Zim on a buffalo and elephant hunt, so these things are fresh in my mind.

All that being said, Cam Greig offers self guided hunts in Cameroon. You can google his name and find his contact info, although I think it would be a foolhardy decision for a first safari.

Perfectly and accurately put. +1

enysse · Nov 19, 2014

It makes great video to show that perfect brain shot, but I bet more times than not that shot goes wrong. The heart/lung shot is always a sure bet.

Bsums · Nov 19, 2014

enysse said:
It makes great video to show that perfect brain shot, but I bet more times than not that shot goes wrong. The heart/lung shot is always a sure bet.

I think the brain shot is the way to go for steady hunters as its a guaranteed kill to drop the elephant right away. A hunter whom is shaky and is too nervous to shoot the small target from approx. 20yds from an elephant may be better with a heart/lung shot. As its not an instant kill and the elephant is looking to trample and tusk something before it dies.

jeffpg · Nov 21, 2014

There's really no apology needed Ruark. You asked some understandable questions and the guys here gave you some real world, honest and knowledgeable answers. That's what they do, and they don't mind, they like to help a fellow out.

Your fascination is truly understandable by all of us, it's just that through experience and the mistakes of others, we have learned that the only guy who wants to be charged is the guy who never has...

"It ain't no fun when the rabbit's got the gun!"

Bsums · Nov 21, 2014

I just went back through this thread. With the Elephant video the PH was doing his job by doing his best to finish the animal. The last thing you want is an injured dangerous animal running around. On plains game your PH most likely won't bring a rifle, the only time my PH on plains game ever held a rifle was on a long stalk through thick brush. It seemed the hunter needed more practice with his rifle before the hunt but sometimes when you get up to an elephant or other animal your overly excited and shaky which affects your accuracy.

Dragan N. · Nov 24, 2014

Grumulkin said:
There are some places in Africa, Burkina Faso for instance, where "chase libre" safaris can be done. That means that you are on your own with some trackers and no PH or anyone else to back you up or judge your trophies for you. Of course their buffalo aren't really Cape Buffalo but I believe they can still be ill tempered.

One thing I've noticed on hunting shows is that VERY frequently with dangerous game, the client shoots and the PH does as well. Maybe there was an agreement between client and PH beforehand; I don't know. Sorry, but that just doesn't do it for me; I want to shoot my own stuff and I make no apologies for that. I would rather not go or hunt something besides dangerous game than have someone else do my shooting for me.

Also, what I've noticed in elephant hunting, the usual practice seems to be getting into very close range and taking a brain shot. At times a close shot is all one can have because of vegetation but that isn't always the case. Why always the brain shot where one has to be close and the chance of a charge is increased? An elephant would die perfectly well with a shoulder shot taken from a safer distance.

Say for example someone who doesn't want the PH to do the "shooting for them" decides to go on one of these self guided hunts in Cameroon or wherever else and they mess up a shot or fail to put down a charging animal, do you realize what the consequences can be? That individual can easily wind up crippled or in a body bag. Or that animal might do the same to one of the trackers or another random person in that area because it escaped and is wounded and very dangerous. These are all very serious consequences. Now if that same person were to go on a guided hunt with a PH, only if they make a poor shot or unable to stop the animal will the PH shoot, in this case the consequence is you didn't get to kill an animal that would have likely killed you or somebody else in the party if not for the PH. Make good clean shots and you wont have to worry about the PH shooting your animals, the repercussions would be far worse if the PH wasn't there to back you up under these circumstances.

Generally speaking when a PH decides to shoot is only when common sense would dictate that they should because of safety or ethical reasons. Most hunters would say that the PH in the above posted elephant hunting video was justified in starting to shoot the animal when he did.

Grumulkin · Nov 24, 2014

Dragan N. said:
Generally speaking when a PH decides to shoot is only when common sense would dictate that they should because of safety or ethical reasons. Most hunters would say that the PH in the above posted elephant hunting video was justified in starting to shoot the animal when he did.

Believe it or not, I'm not against the PH doing his job. What I would object to is the automatic second shot by the PH. Maybe all don't do it that way but what I have seen is that very frequently, probably more often than not, the shot of the PH follows that of the client much too soon for either to have determined that the first shot was a bad one. In fact, the following commentary frequently goes like, "the first shot was a good one." I suspect it's common practice for the PH to insist on "collaborating" in those cases. I also don't have a problem with the PH insisting on collaborating as long as that is understood BEFORE the client pays any money or ends up in Africa.

jeff · Nov 24, 2014

Grumulkin, I agree 100%, many of the videos show a follow up by the PH a split second after the clients. I know of a cape buff hunt with a bow that the archer missed and the PH shot immediately , the buff was leaving and not charging, great bowhunt!!

enysse · Nov 24, 2014

I think the brain shot is the way to go for steady hunters as its a guaranteed kill to drop the elephant right away. A hunter whom is shaky and is too nervous to shoot the small target from approx. 20yds from an elephant may be better with a heart/lung shot. As its not an instant kill and the elephant is looking to trample and tusk something before it dies.

I disagree, I think the brain is final if the shot is right, but the heart/lung shot will bring a elephant down in no time flat. I have friends that have done the Big 5 with a bow and arrow. Most tell me the cape buffalo are relatively easy to bring down with a bow and arrow. I have no reason to doubt these hunters. They are addicts like me.

JustinC · Nov 27, 2014

Ruark said:
I've really enjoyed reading this forum, and appreciate the warm welcomes to my introduction.

I'd like to ask a question about the client's "freedom," and by that I mean what the client is allowed to do, or rather, how much authority the PH has over what the client does. If I ever go on that African dream hunt, that would be important to me. Suppose, for example, on the DG (buff, lion, elephant) I wanted to:

1. Make the final approach up front, alone, maybe with a gunbearer, and everybody else 15-20 yds. back
2. Take them ONLY in a charge.
3. Use a red dot sight, no scope (wouldn't want a scope on a charge, anyway)
4. In the event it's wounded, track and finish it myself. Same as #1.

No rhino, they're too rare, and I'll leave charging leopards to younger blokes....

Is a hunt like this possible? Would a PH allow it?

Cheers,
Ruark

Hello Ruark,

There has been lots of good advice and comments thus far but I think that you should view your opportunity of hunting in Africa as freedom enough...

Go home in one piece, tell your story and let the PH continue his career.

Regards

Bert the Turtle · Dec 10, 2014

I don't want my PH taking a backup shot if he doesn't have to. Of course, I've hunted with him multiple times, he's visited me in the states, and is essentially like an uncle to my son. So he knows what I can and cannot do with a rifle. Still, if he insisted on a backup shot, I would respect his opinion, we'd talk it over and come to a mutually agreeable plan. Bottom line is that if I put my first shot where it needs to be, his shot will be unnecessary and it is by all rights my kill. If I put it in the wrong place, I'll likely thank him for the second.

If one decides to go on a dangerous game hunt as a first hunt in Africa, I think he is missing out on a lot of the fun. Why start with a leopard or buffalo? That gemsbok may be anticlimactic after that. But start with the gemsbok and it doesn't take anything away from the leopard. Better to start with the plains game and save the bigger stuff for later unless you have cancer or something and legitimately only have one chance at a dream.

Also, I personally would want to have a good working relationship with my PH before going after dangerous game with him. I imagine he feels the same way.

As far as that movie you saw as a kid, I am sure it was exiting. But, if the guy went 3 for 3 charges, he was either provoking them intentionally or he was a bad shot on the initial shots. It looks good on film, and I believe it happened. But it isn't good role modeling.

Bullhunter · Dec 13, 2014

Some of the hunts with more freedom were great.

It is up to you.
Speak with the PH / Outfitter before.

I was in several african countries and hunt alone.
It can be very dangerous, but it is up to you.
One time I have to shoot an unwounded/unprovaketed Leopard, witch wants to attack me.

This year I have done this twice.
And I had hunt in newpfoundland on an black bear.
Allone, this is legal there.

Best wishes.

Bullhunter

BRICKBURN · Dec 13, 2014

jeff said:
Grumulkin, I agree 100%, many of the videos show a follow up by the PH a split second after the clients. I know of a cape buff hunt with a bow that the archer missed and the PH shot immediately , the buff was leaving and not charging, great bowhunt!!

I hope the PH enjoyed HIS trophy.

Hank2211 · Dec 13, 2014

Bert the Turtle said:
I don't want my PH taking a backup shot if he doesn't have to. Of course, I've hunted with him multiple times, he's visited me in the states, and is essentially like an uncle to my son. So he knows what I can and cannot do with a rifle.

Bert (or is it Turtle?) - I think you have hit on an important fact here. Your PH knows what you can do with a rifle. I have used the same small (3) group of PHs on all of my safaris, and they know how I can shoot, and I know that they know. So I've never had any trouble. If something looks unusual, we have a brief discussion, otherwise they let me shoot. Two examples -

1. An elephant hunt in Matetsi, Zimbabwe. I wanted to go for the brain, but we were only a few hundred yards from the Botswana border. If I missed the brain, there was a good chance I would lose the elephant. So I asked my PH to follow up if the brain shot didn't work. And of course, you know whether it's worked or not pretty much instantly!

2. Croc hunt in Zim this past summer. The croc was a bit over a yard from running water, and I wasn't as steady as I usually am due to a fever. I asked my PH to fire at will after I got the first shot (or two) off, provided the croc was hit.

In both cases there was a discussion, so neither of us would be surprised by what happened. I agree with those who suggest it isn't fair for a hunter to be surprised when he fires and the PH shoots within seconds or less.

The moral of this, to me, is simply that. Like real estate agents say, it's about communication, communication, communication. And a long term relationship is even better.

Red Leg · Dec 13, 2014

Bullhunter said:
Some of the hunts with more freedom were great.

It is up to you.
Speak with the PH / Outfitter before.

I was in several african countries and hunt alone.
It can be very dangerous, but it is up to you.
One time I have to shoot an unwounded/unprovaketed Leopard, witch wants to attack me.

This year I have done this twice.
And I had hunt in newpfoundland on an black bear.
Allone, this is legal there.

Best wishes.

Bullhunter

Hmm. You have hunted alone in several African countries? Which several would those be? Are you a resident of one? Just curious - the majority require a foreign hunter to be accompanied by a licensed professional hunter.

Dragan N. · Dec 18, 2014

Bert the Turtle said:
I don't want my PH taking a backup shot if he doesn't have to. Of course, I've hunted with him multiple times, he's visited me in the states, and is essentially like an uncle to my son. So he knows what I can and cannot do with a rifle. Still, if he insisted on a backup shot, I would respect his opinion, we'd talk it over and come to a mutually agreeable plan. Bottom line is that if I put my first shot where it needs to be, his shot will be unnecessary and it is by all rights my kill. If I put it in the wrong place, I'll likely thank him for the second.

If one decides to go on a dangerous game hunt as a first hunt in Africa, I think he is missing out on a lot of the fun. Why start with a leopard or buffalo? That gemsbok may be anticlimactic after that. But start with the gemsbok and it doesn't take anything away from the leopard. Better to start with the plains game and save the bigger stuff for later unless you have cancer or something and legitimately only have one chance at a dream.

Also, I personally would want to have a good working relationship with my PH before going after dangerous game with him. I imagine he feels the same way.

As far as that movie you saw as a kid, I am sure it was exiting. But, if the guy went 3 for 3 charges, he was either provoking them intentionally or he was a bad shot on the initial shots. It looks good on film, and I believe it happened. But it isn't good role modeling.

I fully agree with your post.

Just one thing, more of an aside really, but an experienced PH should be able to tell how much freedom to give a client and their skill level with a gun based on how that person handles and fires it at the range when they are sighting the rifle in. They can tell a novice apart from a pro or someone for whom a gun is basically an extension of their hand so to speak. Obviously the less familiar and comfortable someone is around guns and hunting the more the PH has to guide or baby them if you will.

But I also think a hunter could potentially be saved disappointment if they are brutally honest with their PH even before they book a hunt about their skill level and so forth. People in general have a tendency to over estimate their skills or not be honest about them because of their ego. Now while this hypothetical individual may be able to get away with bsing in the virtual world before they actually meet the PH, this all changes when they actually arrive in Africa and meet them in person.

slad68 · Dec 26, 2014

Here is a short clip of an Elephant charge that almost ended in a disaster. I apologize for the poor footage but my inexperienced camera man ran away. Ha Ha Ha.

peras · Dec 26, 2014

Bossie, are you still wearing those pants? Well done

How much freedom does the client have?

Mike70560

BRICKBURN

Red Leg

enysse

Bsums

jeffpg

Bsums

Dragan N.

Grumulkin

jeff

enysse

JustinC

Bert the Turtle

Bullhunter

BRICKBURN

Hank2211

Red Leg

Dragan N.

slad68

peras

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