Would you consider booking with a hunting outfitter who is not a member of PHASA?

JTEX said:

There are some unscupulous members of PHASA, PHASA has done nothing to expell them...........it means nothing to me...........

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Hi JTEX
Who are these and most importantly what proof is there that they are unscrupulous .
If you have that information email it to me or directly to PHASA for review. I know there are a number of disciplinary cases pending.

At the end of the day PHASA is just a bunch of Professional hunters 450 odd and hunting outfitters 550 odd, trying to promote SA and hunting in SA and these guys have there own businesses to run and have to attend to PHASA matters on there own time.

It's not a secret society and members vote and decide as a whole and not as individuals.

Too often people judging PHASA are not members or members that never attend meetings or AGMs. It's a peoples organization of like minded individuals. It's VERY diverse as the membership is DIVERSE.

We have just come from the AGM and spent hours debating issues that PHASA MEMBERS DISAGREE ON.

This is not a SCI type organization where the few rule the many.

If you as a member have a problem bring it to the AGM stand up , say your say and let the membership decide.

If you don't show up shut up simple.
Have a very pleasant day

Hi Back at ya' Leopard Valley

I have no interest whatsoever in PHASA. I simply stated that I had no need for PHASA member. And I do know for a fact that there are and have been unscupulous members.

As far as your remark " If you don't show up shut up".................. Last I remember, I get to choose what I want to do and who I get to do it with. I assume you are a PHASA member and your attitude and remark doesn't do them any favors in my mind.

But if you are working to make PHASA better and membership more relevant, my hat is off to you.

A very pleasant day to you as well

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

Who are these and most importantly what proof is there that they are unscrupulous .
If you have that information email it to me or directly to PHASA for review. I know there are a number of disciplinary cases pending.

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Check futher up in the post.

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

At the end of the day PHASA is just a bunch of Professional hunters 450 odd and hunting outfitters 550 odd

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Why call it PHASA if outfitters outnumber PH's. Again this is two seperate entities,there has to be a conflict of interest, thus shifting the balance of power.

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

If you don't show up shut up simple

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By default this would indicate that as a international client you too need to be a member of PHASA to lay a complaint or to make your voice heard. Why choose a PHASA outfitter then?

Great quite to promote hunting in SA by telling international clients to keep their opinions to themselves,especially when the question was directed at them and asked by a member.
Paying for membership in any hunting orginasation makes no one better than the next, just like owning a rifle does not make one a hunter. PHASA has good and less great members, just like many other orginasations its up to them to keep their reputation (members) in line.
These issues have been raised with both Phillip and Kristi on previous occasions, here and in private, the latest 2 weeks ago. Replies were in short supply.

Much better stated than I did.

Thank you!

Haters gonna hate.

WALKINGPREY2 said:

With no way to actually police outfitters in South Africa.....I say "NO". Sorry.....but FAR too many are taken advantage of by unethical African outfitters. The scammers and con-artists run the spectrum. So do the horror stories of the innocent hunters played. I don't care what organization you belong to....you will NEVER find one you are completely happy with. Get real. But at least you are willing to come under the scrutiny and be accountable to one organization that strives to protect the professional hunting industry. I can promise you...that the unethical outfitters are more often than NOT going to be a member of PHASA. And they will have every bullshit reason not to be a member. If a client has serious issues with an outfitter.....they will look to PHASA to complain. Yet I will say....this is only one component that is to be looked at when choosing an outfitter to hunt with. This is a topic that I am currently voicing a concern over and writing about. I am a hunter. I am from the United States. My background is in Marketing Research.

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So how did your market research help in this matter? Can you give give me a few "bullshit" reason why some are not members of PHASA?

PHASA is a great organisation, but little control of members.

Well if the outfitters want to join and it helps them in some way good for them.It can not hurt to be a member but it means nothing to me when booking a hunt.

I think it is like anything else in this world some will think it is great others will see it as just another group trying to get a edge in a market.I dont think it is a big help for what I can tell.

Way to many from what I can see think in makes them better then none members.In the end to me the outfitter and phs makes there business good or bad not some membership.

As far as I am concerned, clients must not look at PHASA of a way to booking hunts, I think people need to look at the bigger picture, PHASA needs membership, membership means money. PHASA needs money to fight against the anti-hunting lobby. PHASA has done wonders to prevent the anti's closing hunting in SA. People need to think out of the box! South Africa isn't the only hunting destination in Africa.

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

Hi JTEX
Who are these and most importantly what proof is there that they are unscrupulous .
If you have that information email it to me or directly to PHASA for review. I know there are a number of disciplinary cases pending.

At the end of the day PHASA is just a bunch of Professional hunters 450 odd and hunting outfitters 550 odd, trying to promote SA and hunting in SA and these guys have there own businesses to run and have to attend to PHASA matters on there own time.

It's not a secret society and members vote and decide as a whole and not as individuals.

Too often people judging PHASA are not members or members that never attend meetings or AGMs. It's a peoples organization of like minded individuals. It's VERY diverse as the membership is DIVERSE.

We have just come from the AGM and spent hours debating issues that PHASA MEMBERS DISAGREE ON.

This is not a SCI type organization where the few rule the many.

If you as a member have a problem bring it to the AGM stand up , say your say and let the membership decide.

If you don't show up shut up simple.
Have a very pleasant day

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This is a terrible reply, I am sure not a single member of the PHASA exec would endorse your post. Pointing fingers at SCI...WOW!!

TMS said:

As far as I am concerned, clients must not look at PHASA of a way to booking hunts, I think people need to look at the bigger picture, PHASA needs membership, membership means money. PHASA needs money to fight against the anti-hunting lobby. PHASA has done wonders to prevent the anti's closing hunting in SA. People need to think out of the box! South Africa isn't the only hunting destination in Africa.

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NOW THAT!!!! Is an outstanding point! And an excellent mission statement!

Now all PHASA has to do is give "some" of their "Ambassadors" ettiquet classes

My apologies for a rushed reply.

I in no way pointed fingers or intended to point fingers at you JTEX , MY APPOLOGIES.

But you are laying some serious allegations publicly that need to be substantiated and can't just be hear say.

AS FOR SHOW UP OR SHUT UP. This is directed at SA PHs and outfitters who like to mouth of at an organization that 90% of them have no knowledge of.

many PHs or Outfitters who complain don't show up to meetings ,or voice their concerns but shout the loudest .

No I'm not on the executive ,I'm just a member I IN NO WAY SPEAK FOR THE ASSOCIATION.

As for membership = money. Not true we have just voted now to start a process that PHs under 25 get a further reduced rate on subs by 25% ON THE ALREADY REDUCED RATE.

To say its a outfitters organization is also untrue and shows a lack of knowledge of the organization.
529 outfitters ( large percentage are also PHs)
429 PHs
70 associated members
20 international members

Monies raised are from gala auction events and donations. SCI, DSC andConservation force to name a few.

As for SCI I am a proud member for many years and wanted to make a distinction of how the two separate organizations are managed. SCI members don't have a say on big executive decisions. PHASA members do.
Sorry for the confusion.

In South Africa The association is the Only body recognized by the SA government , the dept of US Fish and wildlife, as representing the professional hunters of SA.

I can't list all the things that The Pro hunters ass of SA does for hunting in Africa for SA outfitters as well as Zim and Moz outfitters. ( the CEO went to Washington and used their influence to help try lift the Zimbawe, Tanzanian elephant ban) not something they needed to do but it was in the best interest of Hunting.

Apologies again to ruffled feathers , not intended.

No apologies required. My post wasn't as clear as it could have been either.

All anyone can do is their best!

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

AS FOR SHOW UP OR SHUT UP. This is directed at SA PHs and outfitters who like to mouth of at an organization that 90% of them have no knowledge of.

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If I read this correctly then only 10% of Outfitters and PH's belong to PHASA?

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

To say its a outfitters organization is also untrue and shows a lack of knowledge of the organization.
529 outfitters ( large percentage are also PHs)
429 PHs
70 associated members
20 international members

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Does SA law not require you to be a PH before you can become a Outfitter? If you add all the members together exlcluding the Outfitters, the Outfitters still outnumber them all, how can it not be tipped in that direction?

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

In South Africa The association is the Only body recognized by the SA government , the dept of US Fish and wildlife, as representing the professional hunters of SA

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By default then it takes responsibillity for 100% of the PH/Outfitters but only has 10% Membership?

I have no issue with PHASA, I have stated a number of times that PHASA does great work, that was never in question. It is the precieved benefit of hunting with a PHASA member that was in question.
As a European agent PHASA membership does not make me decide which Outfitter or PH is going to get my clients, only reputation is going to do that. I have used both and have had good and bad experiances from both.

I dont think anyone needs to apologies for anything they said on the thread.Even bad comments or some that show a weakness in a group can be used to better a club.

Phasa can't make changes or know they need to if they dont hear all feed back.The main problem I see with alot of groups is they stop listing to the people who they are trying to get to join them.They lose focus on the main goal and get to happy with the same old stuff.They need to hear why some dont want to join or see no benefit for joining them.

Most groups wait to long to get new blood in the group just thinking of themselves and not what got them started into the group.That is what I bet the sci comment was about.

As for representation , may I ask what your professional body representation is hunthard?
You obviously feel very strongly about it.

The list of PHs and outfitters that exist and those that are active can be as much as 30%

Who do the purported 90% belong to? There is no other officially recognized organization . There is no other organization in SA constantly negotiating with government departments . Streamlining processes that benefit ALL outfitters , members and non members.

As for representation being lopsided, the membership is from all over South Africa from all provinces, all with different operations. These are the guys calling the shots ,making the decisions.

Its not mandatory to belong to the association to be a operator in SA BUT 95% of complaints received from foreign hunters are from NON MEMBERS.

It's currently mandatory to belong to the association if you hunt in the Northern cape or if you wish to exhibit at DSC. The Eastern Cape might follow suit as the government can't keep track of the outfitters.

Best regards


.

This post is a perfect Marketing Research question. And if I were an Outfitter or PH in SA, it would certainly gain my attention. That is if the concerns of potential clients are any concerns of yours. As I stated: "I don't care what organization you belong to....you will NEVER find one you are completely happy with.....If a client has serious issues with an outfitter.....they will look to PHASA to complain." I now have personal experience as to the not so perfect side of PHASA. But what do you expect from an organization, any organization, run by humans? I have heard the pros and cons to being a member of PHASA from numerous Outfitters/PHs. There are valid points on both sides. I (the client) still hold to my personal position....I would not use an Outfitter or PH in SA that is not a member of PHASA.

While I have no doubt there are numerous ethical Outfitters and/PHs who are not members of PHASA, you will find that the less scrupulous Outfitters/PHs do not hold a membership of any association (not just PHASA) that might police them. One "bullshit" reason? Because they do believe they need to be, nor will they place themselves, in a position to be held accountable by anyone. And those who are unethical in character in any regard will of course not place themselves in a position to be policed....ever.

That organizations like PHASA need to exist, IMO, is pretty obvious. They exist for the benefit of clients and Outfitters/PHs in terms of protection for both parties, and the preservation of the hunting industry. An industry seriously under attack. My attitude is if you don't like certain aspects of the organization that plays a vital role, than get involved and be a source for positive change.

"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another." (Prov. 27:17)

“A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody.”
― Thomas Paine

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

The list of PHs and outfitters that exist and those that are active can be as much as 30%

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Okay, first you mentioned 90% have no idea about PHASA and now membership is 30%?
Then in your opnion the South African Hunters Ass. is not contributing to hunting and hunting tourists in SA, both foreign and domestic. CHASA also seems to have part of the government ear?

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

As for representation being lopsided, the membership is from all over South Africa from all provinces, all with different operations. These are the guys calling the shots ,making the decisions.

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It does not matter from which geographical location the members are made up, Outfitters outnumber all other members, that gives a majority of Outfitters in the membership ratio.

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

Its not mandatory to belong to the association to be a operator in SA BUT 95% of complaints received from foreign hunters are from NON MEMBERS.

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It is highly likely that 95% of the complaints are lodged against non members, bases on the 10 or 30% membership ( cant figure that out yet) you are saying 5% of PHASA members are not reputable? Is this 95% based on a percentage of total non PHASA outfitters or 95% of complaints PHASA recieves? Based on non member complaints it would indicate that PHASA non compliance is higher?

LeopardsValleySafaris said:

It's currently mandatory to belong to the association if you hunt in the Northern cape or if you wish to exhibit at DSC. The Eastern Cape might follow suit as the government can't keep track of the outfitters.

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A very misleading statement, as far as I know it will not be a membership that is required but purely a obligation to be registered, two complety different requirements?

Currently I am neither registered with SCI or PHASA if that is your question. I do however belong to 2 seperate hunting orginizations in Europe, both local. But more importantly I belong to a very large brotherhood of hunters globaly. I say this again, PHASA does good work, but is no guarantee.

Re read my statement, you're confusing yourself.

I think any organization that helps protect hunting and makes some effort to police it's ranks is working in the right direction. Outfitters and PH's that support PHASA show me that they want to help through a organized effort. No organization is with out flaws.

jeff said:

I think any organization that helps protect hunting and makes some effort to police it's ranks is working in the right direction. Outfitters and PH's that support PHASA show me that they want to help through a organized effort. No organization is with out flaws.

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Spot on Jeff!