Canned Lion hunting

Totally true that only ten percent of the animals on a specific ranch can be harvested as trophys, this the reason for it being so important to have a lot of ranches in various areas available to ensure quality trophys in a sustainable way.

Like a number of others here, I have hunted game behind fences, in unfenced conservancies, in low fenced cattle country, and in unfenced wilderness leases. Like hunting mule deer or elk in the vastness of the North American Rockies, I prefer that wilderness experience to potting urban whitetail in Northern Virginia - but both represent hunting naturally breeding species with adequate escape options. Cost and subsequent quality of the experience are the huge differentiators. I have personal trouble with the small fenced ranches which typically have a mixture of breeding and put-and-take opportunities (hence, little different from a Texas exotics ranch). If the kudu was born in an environment and doesn't know that he is fenced because the enclosure is so vast - then fine. A purchased cape buffalo released into an enclosure however vast, is, on my personal ethical scale, little more than a target. To me, captive bred lions fall into that same category.

I watched a TV show the other day, where some uninformed dimwit with an accent too close to mine, was "hunting" cape buffalo in freezing weather behind a gate in the Eastern Cape. The whole time the PH kept up a ridiculous, staged prattle about knowing an old bull was in the area. No tracking, just running from ridge to ridge until they spotted the poor old thing hiding in a draw trying to nurse his rheumatism out of the wind. No doubt our nimrod went home with all sorts of stories about having faced black death. It is like two Europeans who come to North America to hunt elk. One takes his after two weeks of hard hunting in the mountains of New Mexico, and the other shoots his from a well appointed lodge on a fenced thousand-acre property in Missouri. Both killed elk - only one really hunted an elk.

I fully understand all of this is a slippery ethical slope. As everyone has suggested, do your research. The ultimate point where I draw an absolute line is that I personally will not knowingly hunt a game animal placed in an enclosure for me to shoot. At that point, I have crossed over from hunting to merely killing. If the environment is large enough to comfortably exceed the naturally occurring environment of the animal you are hunting; if he is part of a naturally breeding population within that environment, then I think you should have no ethical concerns. Bottom line - Research your hunt!

Paw Print.

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

Paw Print said:

True, and AH is the perfect place to do this research and ask questions. You can also ask the outfitter for a letter of good standing from PHASA and of course traceable references.

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Exactly.

Plus with some you can go to DSC and meet them at the AH dinner.

I am of the opinion this whole "canned" hunting thing is being thrown out of proportion.

Regrettably; there are the so-called "purists" / experts (present company excluded) who believe that the only "real" hunting can be found in unfenced areas in really "wild Africa"... Some of these "experts" have actually hunted Africa - some of them have not - and know little more about African hunting than what they've learned by surfing the Internet. Some of them can afford paying $1,000+ per day in daily rates on plains game hunts and some dream about being able to spend that amount of money... Some believe that their ability to spend $2,000 per day to hunt "wild Africa" makes them experts...

Some hunting agents gained extensive experience in hunting Africa, found an Outfitter(s) he/she likes and chose to represent them... Some "agents" hunted Africa once, became an instant African hunting expert and is now "representing" the outfitter he/she hunted with that one time... There are BS'ers everywhere...

Some years ago I was invited to hunt on a ranch in Texas. As it turned out the ranch was maybe 500 acres in size and stocked with exotic game (including African game). When I was done with this "hunt" I said to my wife: "Honey, if this is what North American hunters envisage when they hear about ranch hunts in South Africa I can fully understand why they'd rather book elsewhere or not come at all"...

Are there "put and take" operations in South Africa? YES

Are all South African Operators running "put and take" operations? NO

South Africa offers some of the best value for money hunting of African game I know of. I don't know of many places where you can pay $10,000, spend 10 days in decent accommodations, have your own private guide, eat drink and sleep well and hunt a variety of game... And importantly; if you don't see / shoot any game - you don't pay for it...

Yes, some of this hunting might be behind fences but I wish that prospective clients would put everything they "know" or think they know about ranch hunting behind them, pick the right Outfitter, come over and enjoy a memorable and ethical hunt.

Chris well said!

I could not agree more personally I am sick and tired of apologizing for being a South African who takes pride in our hunting indastry though I may not agree with my fellow Outfitters invading Zim or any other country we have great hunting right here!

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

Although I am probably one of the farthest from an expert on the forum I do have my 2 cents on it. Everyone's opinion on it is different. But their is a definite difference between hunting a game ranch and a canned hunt, at least to me. I consider a canned hunt when you literally pick out the trophy animal from a pen, regardless of species. Then it is released and shot the next day. Game ranches are much more affordable, if the hunting is just as fair for the animal then I don't have an issue with it. A "wild Africa" lion may cost double or triple the cost to hunt one on a game ranch. Some/many game ranches do bring in lions and Im fine with this, as long as the lions are released into the property to live and aren't kept in a pen until the start of the hunt. Otherwise they wouldn't be able to keep up the lion hunting demand with low prices, as its much easier to bring in lions and hunt more then to maintain a single pride. I'm not the most knowledgable on the topic and may be way off so feel free to correct me if what I came to conclude is wrong/way off.

+1 Amen call it what it is!

Best Regards
Louis van Bergen

This is an issue which always raises blood pressure whenever it comes up.

I think we have to define our terms. Some confuse - intentionally or not isn't always clear - hunting captive raised or bred animals with "pen hunting".

Hunting captive raised or captive bred animals is so common, both in North America and Africa (particularly South Africa) that if that's the issue, well, we have bigger problems. I'd suggest that most of the "glamour game" hunted in South Africa is captive bred. Cape buffalo, sable, roan, are examples. There are game ranches where these animals breed naturally, but I'd suggest many more where breeding enclosures are maintained and the animals are bred to produce desirable genetic traits. Same thing goes for deer in parts of North America. Does it matter - or should it matter - if the subject of the breeding is cape bull or lion? I don't see the type of animal as a basis for any distinction.

So I'd suggest the issue here isn't how the animal was born or raised, but how it's hunted. In saying this I'm not expressing any opinion on the breeding of "freaks" or unnatural colour variants - that's a whole other subject.

Note, though, that some writers, such as Peter Flack, are clearly against captive breeding, at least of lions, regardless of how the animal is hunted.

The issue then, for me, comes down to the manner in which the animal is hunted. If the animal - lion or cape buffalo or whatever - is released into an area too small for it to maintain its existence, or too small to elude a hunter for at least a reasonable period of time, then I'd call that pen hunting, or canned hunting, and I'd suggest it's wrong. It certainly isn't fair chase. How small is too small? That depends on the animal - obviously some need more range than others. But I have very little doubt, at least in my own mind, that if I hunt an animal - lion or any other - in a high-fenced area that's 10,000 acres or more (more than 10 square miles), and it's been there for a reasonable period of time, that's a fair chase hunt regardless of how the animal was raised. And there are lots of those properties in South Africa.

So hunting captive bred or raised animals? OK with me. Canned hunting, or hunting animals in enclosures too small to sustain the animal or allow it to get away? Not for me. Calling all hunting of captive bred or raised animals canned hunting? Not for me either.

CT Safaris said:

I am of the opinion this whole "canned" hunting thing is being thrown out of proportion.

Regrettably; there are the so-called "purists" / experts (present company excluded) who believe that the only "real" hunting can be found in unfenced areas in really "wild Africa"... Some of these "experts" have actually hunted Africa - some of them have not - and know little more about African hunting than what they've learned by surfing the Internet. Some of them can afford paying $1,000+ per day in daily rates on plains game hunts and some dream about being able to spend that amount of money... Some believe that their ability to spend $2,000 per day to hunt "wild Africa" makes them experts...

Some hunting agents gained extensive experience in hunting Africa, found an Outfitter(s) he/she likes and chose to represent them... Some "agents" hunted Africa once, became an instant African hunting expert and is now "representing" the outfitter he/she hunted with that one time... There are BS'ers everywhere...

Some years ago I was invited to hunt on a ranch in Texas. As it turned out the ranch was maybe 500 acres in size and stocked with exotic game (including African game). When I was done with this "hunt" I said to my wife: "Honey, if this is what North American hunters envisage when they hear about ranch hunts in South Africa I can fully understand why they'd rather book elsewhere or not come at all"...

Are there "put and take" operations in South Africa? YES

Are all South African Operators running "put and take" operations? NO

South Africa offers some of the best value for money hunting of African game I know of. I don't know of many places where you can pay $10,000, spend 10 days in decent accommodations, have your own private guide, eat drink and sleep well and hunt a variety of game... And importantly; if you don't see / shoot any game - you don't pay for it...

Yes, some of this hunting might be behind fences but I wish that prospective clients would put everything they "know" or think they know about ranch hunting behind them, pick the right Outfitter, come over and enjoy a memorable and ethical hunt.

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This is an important point which I don't think most Americans/North Americans get, ranch hunting in the US and SA is very different. Hunting on most US ranches that are in some cases a few hundred acres or even less than a hundred acres and overflowing with animals is very different from hunting on SA ranches which are thousands or even tens of thousands of acres in size, this is huge. Hunting on US ranches is in many cases canned this might explain and perhaps rightfully so why some hunters are hesitant.

I would say that hunting on a high fenced ranch or farm in the SA is not to different from hunting on state land or on unfenced farm land in some of the more densely populated US states where large tracts of wilderness unfortunately no longer exist. A guy in this thread even mentioned that the state land he hunts free range whitetails on is actually smaller or similar size to some SA farms. And when you think about it an animal like a whitetail has a very small home range I remember reading somewhere that they typically die very close to where they where born. And on these hunts you usually have very comfortable lodging/comforts of "home" etc... Hunts in South Africa generally satisfy what most hunters want ethical and essentially free range animals, good lodging, and affordable prices.

Now with that being said hunts in truly wild areas are a whole another animal imo. Africa aside for a moment a hunt in say northern Canada- say the Yukon or Nunavut where for the duration of your hunt you might be in a cabin with no electricity or running water in basically very "rustic" conditions and in the middle of nowhere and say 100 kms from the nearest human settlement well that is an experience in and off itself. But its not for everyone some people/hunters don't like being in conditions like these. Now in the remote parts of wild Africa, please correct me if I'm wrong, since a lot of these hunts are expensive and for expensive animals i.e. lion they still are still able to provide 5 star accommodations with running water, electricity, speciality and luxurious foods etc...

In regards to canned lion hunts are they more common because keeping a breeding self sustaining pride(s) of lions on a ranch is not to profitable because their main food source is other big game animals and thus the rancher would lose a lot of money while this isn't an issue with large herbivores or is it something else?

Dragan N. said:

……...Now in the remote parts of wild Africa, please correct me if I'm wrong, since a lot of these hunts are expensive and for expensive animals i.e. lion they still are still able to provide 5 star accommodations with running water, electricity, speciality and luxurious foods etc...
……..

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Not sure your point. Such camps are plush only if you consider a hut or tent with a generator 5-star accommodations. Yeah it's better than Denny Moore stew in a can and a Coleman lantern, but African wilderness camps are not exactly the Four Seasons. I will agree the African outfitter tries a lot harder on the human comfort side than the one sees in the usual spike camp in North America.

Dragan N. said:

In regards to canned lion hunts are they more common because keeping a breeding self sustaining pride(s) of lions on a ranch is not to profitable because their main food source is other big game animals and thus the rancher would lose a lot of money while this isn't an issue with large herbivores or is it something else?

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We are in a price sensitive market (quite understandably) hence keeping costs down is important. Resulting in lower prices but more lions hunted to sustain the demand then resulting in more or less the same profit.


The captive bread lion situation is far from ideal however unless we stand together and give the game rancher an incentive to change it and this would unfortunately come down to higher prices I simply can't see things changing. I don’t think people realise that the cost of a lion hunt can actually effect the amount of days the lion is released on a property since he would hunt herbivores a cat has to eat plain and simple.


Now in saying all of this hunting a herd of cape buffalo on an open ranch at least in my opinion is becoming much more regularly available, land owners have come to the conclusion that keeping the bulls in 45 ha camps and feeding them is actually eating in to their profits so better to have the bulls out on the open ranch and have them feed naturally this is when costs of producing an animal actually has a positive outcome.


Needless to say that these hunts would be more expensive than shooting Billy in the pen since things do go wrong from time to time two bulls could fight and kill each other, one could lose a bull due to it being wounded and not picked up, ect..... but I have found that most clients don’t mind an extra few $$ for a great experience.


I can only see things getting better with regards to clients hunting experiences when it comes to hunting cape buffalo, sable and roan in South Africa!



Best Regards


Louis van Bergen

Red Leg said:

Not sure your point. Such camps are plush only if you consider a hut or tent with a generator 5-star accommodations. Yeah it's better than Denny Moore stew in a can and a Coleman lantern, but African wilderness camps are not exactly the Four Seasons. I will agree the African outfitter tries a lot harder on the human comfort side than the one sees in the usual spike camp in North America.

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The accommodations are generally pretty nice. Good tents, linens/beds, clean as it can be, etc. It may take 15 minutes for your shower water to get warm but you won't be uncomfortable(at least at most camps). I'd take an outfitters camps over a Red Roof Inn any day.

Red Roof is not exactly my definition of 5-Star

Well I can't say I'd take any outfitters camp over a hilton or best western any day haha. I'm just implying that most camps are better than most of the generic hotels or motels.

johnnyblues said:

Gentleman, and ladies, Since I will be taking my first African safari next year and again in 2017, I recently saw something about canned lion hunts. What was presented was these lions were pen raised from birth and then of course sold to ranches for hunters to hunt. For a lion hunt That just doesn't sit right with me but I guess to each his own. My question to the forum is I struggled quite abit with my decision to hunt in SA in 17 on a ranch. Does anyone know if the plains game are also pen raised? The PH I chose has gotten rave reviews from his clients but if the plains game are also pen raised I may have to choose a free range hunt. I have seen several free range hunts here in this forum that I could look in to. I hope someone can help. Thanks

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You have got good advice from a lot great guys in here, I hunted both fenced and unfenced & Lion hunt in SA with Louis and Spiral Horns Safari. The lion was just the coolest hunt I done as we tracked it in over 7000 acres and it was outstanding hunt. The plains game that were taken on both type of ranches but at no time did I feel like it was a "canned hunt" . It is no different than in the US where you can hunt King Ranch high fence hunt were the average pasture is 6000 acres, yes they own more but they are cross fenced same for the YO Ranch both in Texas, yet you can also do a 200 acre pen hunt so hard to paint them all as canned hunt.

That word came from Anti-Hunting groups as they know if the sportsman ever could pull together regardless of the type hunting we choose we become a force that would out number theirs but they do a great job of putting doubt in hunters mind as what is ethical

Most folks have no idea the Elk & Deer herds we hunt in the US were supplemented with captive raised and turned out as we had killed all the native animals years ago, Heck in New Zealand they use helicopters to net the red stag and some are then hunted in low fence ranches but the Red Stag is not native to New Zealand as they were brought in by the British so all started as pen raised . But my hunt in New Zealand was outstanding,

Then is it a canned hunt to run corn feeders, cameras etc some state say yes some say no, but is ethical to bait a whitetail, use a helicopter to drop in the middle of the Yukon that is up to each hunter we could all just hunt with a spear and barefoot that be a experience lmao

Hope you have a great hunt and talk with people that have hunted in South Africa not internet experts, be glad to tell you about the last 3 years of hunts with Louis heck it fun to talk about.

One of the main reasons for high fences, the hunting season is only a few months in SA, but if you have a high fence and it is certified, you allowed to hunt all year.