Canned Lion hunting

Gentleman, and ladies, Since I will be taking my first African safari next year and again in 2017, I recently saw something about canned lion hunts. What was presented was these lions were pen raised from birth and then of course sold to ranches for hunters to hunt. For a lion hunt That just doesn't sit right with me but I guess to each his own. My question to the forum is I struggled quite abit with my decision to hunt in SA in 17 on a ranch. Does anyone know if the plains game are also pen raised? The PH I chose has gotten rave reviews from his clients but if the plains game are also pen raised I may have to choose a free range hunt. I have seen several free range hunts here in this forum that I could look in to. I hope someone can help. Thanks

Plains game are not pen raised typically. It is just not economical.
There are of course plains game species that are captured and sold at auction.
There are "put and take" situations.
Self sustaining herds are most common.

Now, if you think all those species managed to be on a property the day the fence went up you are dreaming.

BRICKBURN said:

Plains game are not pen raised typically. It is just not economical.
There are of course plains game species that are captured and sold at auction.
There are "put and take" situations.
Self sustaining herds are most common.

Now, if you think all those species managed to be on a property the day the fence went up you are dreaming.

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So is it your opinion that fence hunt's in SA are not good?

I think you do get ranches who do put and take hunts, but like we do it it is all self sustainable herds like Brick said. Yes it is a fenced property but the animals are free to move where and when they hunt! i think you should just do some research on the outfitter you choose and see what the common practice is where he operate. IMO a fenced hunt can be just as exciting as a free range hunt. but it will differ from person to person.

All the best in your planning

johnnyblues said:

So is it your opinion that fence hunt's in SA are not good?

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NO.

I have hunted in South Africa outside and inside fences and will do both again.

You have to investigate what is on offer and determine if it is right for you.
I have only hunted once on a property that was quite small (relatively). I do not plan to repeat that particular scenario again.

Bush veld open grass fields! Mountains vs flat. These factors change everything.

There are plenty of discussions on this topic. Do a search and you will see plenty of information and opinion.

Brickburn is right on, the economics of pen raising PG species is just not there. Do plenty of homework on your PH/Outfitter and his area before you send in your hard earned money and if you have doubts keep looking. If you have any issues, then by all means go free range, your success will be a bit lower but there wont be any questions.

Thanks everyone. I did do a lot of research on my PH that I choose in SA. I believe I made the right choice, at least his references loved him and his family. I only got alittle rattled after seeing the lion episode . I hope I made the right choice for my leopard hunt next year.

I am planning my first Safari next year and I wondered about this as well. I asked people that hunted these places what it was like and that made me feel better (like everyone is saying do research). It doesn't sound at all like what you see in the US sometimes where you go to the pen pick your animal and then "hunt" it.

I did realized something. Here where I am in the NorthEast US the public game lands I hunt on are probably 1,000-2,000 acres. Even something that size the whitetail deer have lots of places to hide and I can go an entire day with out seeing another hunter most of the time (and deer too because of the hunting pressure on public land ). Most of the concessions are way bigger than 1,000-2,000 acres anyway.

I like the other, suggest that you look at the operations closely.

The smaller the area, the more likelihood that it is a put and take operation.

That is why i tend to build a spread sheet and compare many operations for an area that i would like to try.

I just did a spread sheet for some one on 8 different hunting PH from the same area. A few are our own members.
The spread sheet list daily fees, observer fees, transport fees, trophy fees, other fees. this gives a person a bottom line to work off of.
Then i highlight the hi and low number for each line, yellow for high and blue for low.
At this point i provided a few hunter reports for them to review and asked them to do their own research on top of what i provided.

Put and take, hunting will have higher trophy fees, i have observed.

from what i understand most fenced areas are fenced due to poaching and so they can control the herds. the animals inside the fences roam free and breed free. the owners may introduce pen raised animals to help with breeding, but dont buy animals to release into their fenced in ranch to be just to be hunted. these fenced areas are huge. larger then any state land i can hunt on in my state.

James.Grage said:

Put and take, hunting will have higher trophy fees, i have observed.

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Very interesting James. Do you have any ideas or opinion why this is?

revturbo9967 said:

from what i understand most fenced areas are fenced due to poaching and so they can control the herds. the animals inside the fences roam free and breed free. the owners may introduce pen raised animals to help with breeding, but dont buy animals to release into their fenced in ranch to be just to be hunted. these fenced areas are huge. larger then any state land i can hunt on in my state.

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How it should be done, but sadly not always the norm.

James booked us last April on a free range RSA PG hunt and my wife and I hunted together with one PH out of one truck with an expierianced tracker/skinner and an apprentice on his first hunt. We tool 16 animals in 9 days, including several making SCI and a couple RW.... So James, if a free range hunt is less successful than a fenced hunt... Just what kind of bloody slaughter should be expected anyway?! LOL

I very well may in the future hunt with an outfitter who has both fenced and free range... First off I want to go see for myself, but also many fenced operators have lower daily fees and yes I do see some of them getting a bit carried away on trophy fees... but I can always "just say no". And I think fenced operators tend to run more specials on critters they have in surplus. I think some first timers have a difficult time getting their head around the pure numbers that exist in much of RSA.... I see it as capitalism at it's finest. Of course it will be fascinating to see how capitalism treats these wild auction prices longer term.

As for lions, if you want a wild non fenced lion hunt, I just got some pricing that spoke of $55, 000 to over $100, 000..... "if" an opportunity could be found to even do that hunt.

The vast majority of us who want to hunt lion need to get our heads right and around a RSA fenced hunt. And from my research to date, that will likely be what you plan it to be. Within as much as you can plan how a hunt will go for a wild and very dangerous animal!

Realize that wild lion hunting is coming to an end, in spite of facts saying it should not. It is a political pawn. And even if it does continue, opportunities will be less but much more expensive.

By hunting Rsa lions, you are supporting an industry that will maintain the species and supplies of the animals on the planet.

brushmore said:

I did realized something. Here where I am in the NorthEast US the public game lands I hunt on are probably 1,000-2,000 acres. Even something that size the whitetail deer have lots of places to hide and I can go an entire day with out seeing another hunter most of the time (and deer too because of the hunting pressure on public land ). Most of the concessions are way bigger than 1,000-2,000 acres anyway.

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In addition, while I have never hunted a lion, I expect that the term "canned hunt" does not do the experience justice. I had an encounter with a male lion at a refuge once that put things in perspective. There was a fence around the enclosure that looked far to flimsy to me. As we approached the lion looked at us a let out a roar that literally froze me to the ground. I am amazed by the power these creatures have and, well let's just say it was a good thing I was wearing dark pants . From my perspective there is no area large enough for me to share with a cat like that!

I've always wondered if it would be possible to start some organization that could "certify" or "approve" hunting places, especially in SA, as meeting minimum required standards for animal space, sportsmanlike opportunity, game living conditions, etc. This would be helpful to people planning hunts in the region: the outfitters could advertise that they are "certified by ...." or "members of ...." or whatever it was called. And this would ensure clients, especially new people and first timers, that they were getting a fair, quality hunt. I would hate to spend tens of thousands of dollars on the hunt of a lifetime, get out on the ground, and only THEN find out that my "game" was released from a pen 30 minutes earlier. This would be one way of preventing that. Is it feasible?

Ruark, Interesting idea.
It is all voluntary. There are bodies that exist.

Sadly, no matter what rules and regulations get put in place there will always be someone who will try and short cut the rules for money.

Each and every time you have to ask the questions and learn how to identify a shady deal or operation and make your decision.

And you may want to run the answers you get by your friends here on AH. Lots of experience here to help you separate the pepper from the fly poop.

Research is still the key. You have to do your homework, in my opinion.

I just don't trust a single organization for anything like this, or for most things for that matter.

Royal27 said:

Research is still the key. You have to do your homework, in my opinion.

I just don't trust a single organization for anything like this, or for most things for that matter.

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True, and AH is the perfect place to do this research and ask questions. You can also ask the outfitter for a letter of good standing from PHASA and of course traceable references.

Communicate with the outfit you choose most Outfitters would go out of their way to make a hunt what his client wants it to be.

James.Grage said:

Put and take, hunting will have higher trophy fees, i have observed.

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James generally put and take operations work on turnover and push major volume trough a small area, they simply can't afford to price higher or they would not have the volume of clients to turn their cash flow.

As firstly a game rancher I always look at how long it would take me to replace an animal (naturally) leaving me with the scenario that I have only so many animals to sell in the total hunting area (taking in to account most of the time you harvest only the top 10% of the animals on a particular ranch) especially if they reproduce naturally hence lower amounts of hunts but higher prices since I still need to make a living.

This module could be different to each operation …… just wanted to trough another point of view in there.


Best Regards

Louis van Bergen