A simple question regarding arrows

jeffb · Jan 28, 2014

Also on another note, just to give you an example, here are the minimum requirements in Namibia:
Large Game
Bow Kinetic Energy 65 ft/lbs
Arrow Weight 450 grain
(Greater Kudu, Cape Eland, Oryx / Gemsbok, Red Hartebeest, Blue Wildebeest, Black Wildebeest, Hartmann's Zebra, Burchell's Zebra, Giraffe, Sable Antelope, Roan Antelope, Waterbuck, Tsessebe, etc.)
Medium Game
Bow Kinetic Energy 40 ft/lbs
Arrow Weight 400 grain
(Warthog, Cheetah, Nyala, Chacma Baboon, etc.)
Small Game
Bow Kinetic Energy 25 ft/lbs
Arrow Weight 350 grain
(Springbok, Impala, Blesbok, Gray Duiker, Steenbok, Ostrich, Caracal, Black-Faced Impala, Red Lechwe, Damara Dik-Dik, Klipspringer, Black-Backed Jackal, Game Birds, etc.)

jeffb · Jan 28, 2014

Here are a few photos of the arrow case, 4 latches, 2 lock tabs and actually holds 18 arrows, 9 on each side with 2 foam type holders for your broad heads

kal · Jan 28, 2014

Jeff, thanks for the info. This has started to turn into a very interesting conversation. I find myself wondering how the requirements have been determined? It would seem to me that the regulations are out of date with technology. For instance the setup I will be using creates 75 foot pounds of KE and .518 of momentum, this all with an arrow just over 400grns. Clearly meeting the energy requirements but not the grain minimum, now as stated I have nothing against heavy arrows but it would seem unlikely that the few extra grains would make a noticeable difference. Again I am not looking for an argument or a competition, just a friendly debate with fellow tech heads.

jeffb · Jan 28, 2014

I believe when it comes down to it, shot placement is the key, I would have to agree that a few grains, say +/- 50 wouldn't really matter if the shot is placed properly. I have been doing a lot of studying/researching on African animals compared to north American animals and their vitals sit farther forward than ours here. I believe the setup you are using should be more than efficient with most plains game animals

Bhfs300 · Jan 28, 2014

Hi the 5.333 grains per pound you are shooting from your bow is close to dry fireing your bow if you were shooting 6 grains per pound the arrow would be 450 grains that might be what they are thinking.
Your practice with the poundage and weight of your arrows might damage your bow.
Bhfs300

bluey · Jan 28, 2014

jeffb said:
Here are a few photos of the arrow case, 4 latches, 2 lock tabs and actually holds 18 arrows, 9 on each side with 2 foam type holders for your broad heads
View attachment 24987 View attachment 24988 View attachment 24989

gday kal;
I got this same arrow case off ebay last year delivered for 48 aussies ..

kal · Jan 28, 2014

Bhfs300 said:
Hi the 5.333 grains per pound you are shooting from your bow is close to dry fireing your bow if you were shooting 6 grains per pound the arrow would be 450 grains that might be what they are thinking.
Your practice with the poundage and weight of your arrows might damage your bow.
Bhfs300

Good point, That is a very old rule of thumb. I am in no way close to dry firing my bow. Manufactures test bows set at 70lbs, 30 inch draw and a 350grain arrow. The majority of company's recommend 5grns per pound now.

Diamondhitch · Jan 28, 2014

Bushman10 said:
The Western Cape province has issued a formal Bow Hunting proclamation that is legally enforceable. As I understand it the same has been done in the Eastern Cape and in the Northern Cape. I am not sure about all the other provinces as I am not a registered PH in those. I attach the minimum requirements as gazetted in the Provincial Ordinance.

View attachment 24980

You will see that an arrow less than 415 grains can only legally be used on smaller game. If you plan on shooting anything bigger than a Blesbuck then your registered PH is bound by the law to report the incident unless you are hunting a province where the legislation has not been affected yet. Also note that there are two conditions in the law - a KE requirement AND an arrow weight requirement.

Minimum requirements are there for a reason and that reason is because you can not assume that shooting an African animal is the same as shooting one of your local animals. I (we / government) have seen too many animals lost due to thin low weighted arrows such as the Victory VAP. PM me with your email and I can send you the entire Ordinance.

I wont dispute the value of a heavier arrow but a lighter well balanced and tuned arrow of the proper spine will out penetrate a heavier poorly unturned balanced arrow every day of the week. By far the biggest problem with penetration is caused by the shooter, not the arrow.

Diamondhitch · Jan 28, 2014

kal said:
Good point, That is a very old rule of thumb. I am in no way close to dry firing my bow. Manufactures test bows set at 70lbs, 30 inch draw and a 350grain arrow. The majority of company's recommend 5grns per pound now.

IBO "standard" is 5gr/lb

Bhfs300 · Jan 28, 2014

kal said:
Good point, That is a very old rule of thumb. I am in no way close to dry firing my bow. Manufactures test bows set at 70lbs, 30 inch draw and a 350grain arrow. The majority of company's recommend 5grns per pound now.

Here is a modern statement that says the new have to be able to shoot 5 grains that is used to get a number for the ft per second the bow will shoot IBO.

SAFETY REMINDER: Light arrows fly fast and flat, but don't go for too much of a good thing. A modern compound bow must shoot AT LEAST 5 grains of arrow mass per pound of bow draw weight. So if you are shooting a bow with a 65 lb. draw weight, your finished arrow must weigh at least 325 grains (65 x 5). Older bows and traditional bows should shoot even more arrow mass (at least 7 grains/lb) for best margins of safety. We know you love speed ... but shooting underweight arrows is dangerous and puts considerable stress on your bow and its components. Always follow minimum arrow mass recommendations for your type of bow.

Bushman10 · Jan 28, 2014

kal said:
I find myself wondering how the requirements have been determined? It would seem to me that the regulations are out of date with technology.

@kal - There are many legislations all over the world that one wonders "how they were determined" and it will take a huge effort through legislation to change them. I always wonder how the speed limit of 120 kmh / 80 kmh / 60 kmh has been determined but that process is really irrelevant.

What is relevant is that you are going to hunt in a foreign country and therefore it could be a good idea to abide by the laws, rules and regulations of that country. That way you will have a great experience, your PH will have a great experience and you will hopefully return to hunt again. As a local PH and very experienced Bow Hunter that have taken many African animals with the bow and have guided many bow hunts I really hope that you reconsider your current choices. I know for a fact that if you ended up on my hunting farm or concession I would not even allow you into the bush with your current setup and the same applies for many other farms.

Diamondhitch · Jan 29, 2014

Bhfs300 said:
SAFETY REMINDER: Light arrows fly fast and flat, but don't go for too much of a good thing. A modern compound bow must shoot AT LEAST 5 grains of arrow mass per pound of bow draw weight. So if you are shooting a bow with a 65 lb. draw weight, your finished arrow must weigh at least 325 grains (65 x 5). Older bows and traditional bows should shoot even more arrow mass (at least 7 grains/lb) for best margins of safety. We know you love speed ... but shooting underweight arrows is dangerous and puts considerable stress on your bow and its components. Always follow minimum arrow mass recommendations for your type of bow.

Yup, a balance of speed/ arrow weight is best, not simply going to either extreme.

kal · Jan 29, 2014

When flying with an arrow case are tsa locks required if it is packed in a checked bag?

Norwegianwoods · Jan 31, 2014

Bushman10 said:
What is relevant is that you are going to hunt in a foreign country and therefore it could be a good idea to abide by the laws, rules and regulations of that country. That way you will have a great experience, your PH will have a great experience and you will hopefully return to hunt again. As a local PH and very experienced Bow Hunter that have taken many African animals with the bow and have guided many bow hunts I really hope that you reconsider your current choices. I know for a fact that if you ended up on my hunting farm or concession I would not even allow you into the bush with your current setup and the same applies for many other farms.

I totally agree.
When we go to another country we should all abide by their laws, no matter what we think about them.
I would never consider to do anything that would put myself, my PH and outfitter into trouble with the law.

I also really don't understand the need for using as light arrows as possible to push as much speed as possible out of a bow.
To use arrows that are just at IBO standard weight and the minimum recommendation from the arrow makers is asking for trouble if you ask me.
If the arrow is totally flawless, you should be safe, but if it has any flaws that you don't detect, you are in danger for putting a broken shaft trough your hand or having a shaft breaking on impact when hitting, resulting in poor penetration and a wounded animal.

Remember that you will need to aim much closer to the shoulder and scapula to hit the vitals on african game than you need to on deer and elk.

Much better to use strong shafts with a decent weight and I also think it is better to lean on the stiff side when it comes to the spine.
Personally I think 260 fps is plenty fast and flat enough and at that speed I can use 615 grain arrows with my setup.
The penetration is outstanding. Even if I hit some bones.

Diamondhitch · Jan 31, 2014

Norwegianwoods said:
I totally agree.
When we go to another country we should all abide by their laws, no matter what we think about them.
I would never consider to do anything that would put myself, my PH and outfitter into trouble with the law.

I also really don't understand the need for using as light arrows as possible to push as much speed as possible out of a bow.
To use arrows that are just at IBO standard weight and the minimum recommendation from the arrow makers is asking for trouble if you ask me.
If the arrow is totally flawless, you should be safe, but if it has any flaws that you don't detect, you are in danger for putting a broken shaft trough your hand or having a shaft breaking on impact when hitting, resulting in poor penetration and a wounded animal.

Remember that you will need to aim much closer to the shoulder and scapula to hit the vitals on african game than you need to on deer and elk.

Much better to use strong shafts with a decent weight and I also think it is better to lean on the stiff side when it comes to the spine.
Personally I think 260 fps is plenty fast and flat enough and at that speed I can use 615 grain arrows with my setup.
The penetration is outstanding. Even if I hit some bones.

Just a comment on durability. I have for years shot grouse out of trees with carbon arrows from a 70lb bow using 418gr arrows tipped with plastic blunts. To avoid losing arrows I line their head up with the tree and shoot directly at the tree, the arrow smashes directly onto the tree and falls to the ground. I have never damaged an arrow doing this. They are far tougher than you might think.

INGOZI · Feb 1, 2014

For peace of mind take double the number you think you are going to use. Rather have them and not need them, than need them and not have them...

kal · Feb 1, 2014

To clear things up I am not chasing speed by any chance. If speed was what I was after i would be shooting a "speed" bow. I did not chose the vap's for there weight I chose them for there od diameter. I appreciate everyone's advice and sent an email to my outfitter to find out there requirements. What you have to keep in mind is the common carbon hunting arrows are in the 8-8.9 grain per inch caragory. Again not trying to insult anyone. Do I have to lock up my arrows with a tsa lock if they are in my checked bag?

kal · Feb 1, 2014

Sorry for the fat finger, ment to say 8-10 grains thats what i get for using this forum on my phone while I should be working lol

A simple question regarding arrows

jeffb

jeffb

kal

jeffb

Bhfs300

bluey

kal

Diamondhitch

Diamondhitch

Bhfs300

Bushman10

Diamondhitch

kal

Norwegianwoods

Diamondhitch

INGOZI

kal

kal

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