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AH-WARNING
Babwesafaris is offering the following hunts in the Zambezi valley
1 buffalo/hippo combo $18k,
2. Buffalo/leopard combo $ 27k,
3. Buffalo/elephant bull combo $40k,
4. Buffalo/lion combo $45k
Prices include all trophy fees and daily rates and transport from hararre. Prices exclude gratuity and dip/pack ship of trophies. Hunts will be in parks area via tent camp and conducted by licensed Zimbabwe ph.
Specifically, which area do these hunts take place in the Valley???
Oh, please don't tell me this is a RSA company with the assistance of an indigenous PH.
I think we have been down this road before no?
Just so long as everyone understands that National Park Safari Areas Hurungwe (Nyakasanga) and Sapi have been abused with excess quota been taken via some unscrupulous RSA outfits and their corrupt Zim Indigenous partners or employees.
TREAD WITH CAUTION!
PS; If this it not the case here then please feel free to inform us on this public forum.
Rastaman,
Is Dawie Van der Wasthuizen still working with Babwe? Does he still hunt in Nyakasanga or was he successful in securing other quota?
Mike,
Yes, dawie is still the owner of babwesafaris and is conducting the hunts. Mostly nyakasanga and some Sapi. He has the other area now but not enough is known about the quota to start offering deals yet. Still working on roads and camp. He lives on the escarpment near the valley and is a licensed zim ph.
To the others, I am sorry there was not sufficient detail. I read the rules twice and tried to be sure I put in the required info. I am not sure about the abused quota issue that was referenced. In 2010 there was definitely some funny business with the quota when parks let some south African outfitters have extra to make up for the mess in matetsi. I didn't hear as much problem in 2011.
Hope this answers all of the concerns.
Folks - I would urge you to take a HUGE word of caution regarding any hunts being conducted by anyone in the Nyakasanga/Sapi areas, Nyakasanga in particular.
The abuse and gross over-hunting of the once spectacular Nyakasanga Area, is truly a shame. Not to insinuate these hunts are necessarily "illegal", I'm not saying that. What I am saying, is anyone - be they agent, outfitter, PH or unknowing client, who is participating in hunts within Nyakasanga, is contributing to what amounts to the massacre of the area's wildlife populations.
The rate at which the lions alone are being killed in Nyakasanga, is appaling! An area that has for years been designated to offer ONE lion permit at auction, in 2011 was issued quota by the crooked Zim officials, to take an additional 7 lions! The same is happening with the elephant, buffalo, etc. The off-take at this rate is grossly un-sustainable, and if not stopped soon, could become irreversible. Anyone who is participating in said activities, should have their status as a hunter/conservationist revoked!!!
I recognize that the hunter/client often times may not be aware of these issues, thus the reason for my post. The best way to stop this un-regulated waste, is for the hunter/client to stop paying for it.
Rastaman - You claim no knowledge of the huge Nyakasanga-wildlife problems which continued to occur in 2011? That tells me, either you have turned a blind eye to it, in the name of selling hunts/profit? Or, you truly have NO IDEA what it is your selling? Which is it??
Mr. Neilson,
I understand you are a competitor and would rather that all buyers of any hunts buy from you and your preferred areas. I also understand the issues in Zimbabwe and no they are not perfect. However, you do not have the right to step into my thread and covey your own personal warning against buying the hunts. I would think you would not like the same treatment on the many, many hunts you are hocking on the various sites.
When is the last time you hunted in nyakasanga? Zimbabwe has problems and the government is corrupt. I hope you realize you are not the first to bless us with this insight. In your 39 years of life I am sure you have never seen such a terrible abuse of the wildlife system. Now, you have had your soapbox.
For all others, the government of this country sets a quota and then auctions off that quota to people who conduct hunts in a wild area that has amazing resources and natural beauty. There is quite a bit of game and does not strike you as an area that is hunted out. The permits are legal and the hunts are fair chase with no fences. No immature game is taken and all laws are complied with. In all respects it is an amazing hunt at a decent price.
Warning: mr. Neilson does not approve of the practices of the government of Zimbabwe. If asked I am sure he also does not approve of Mugabes land stealing methods or even the entire idi Amin regime of prior Uganda. Stay tuned for more moral insight on these issues. He proposes a boycott of these areas which will eliminate the financial benefit of the game. Great idea. maybe we can just go hunting and mind our own business.
Rastaman,
I know Aaron from another website and have met him a couple of times at the shows. His passion is to promote the sustainable ethical hunting of the lion in Africa. I truly do not believe he made the post in self interest to make money for his company.
As far as the "right" to question hunts for sale, I feel if you are posting on a public forum the public has the "right" to question the original post as long as it remains in the bounds of the site owner/moderator. I have done this many times myself. I am not saying it is always in the best taste however some feel strongly enough to post what they feel is necessary. Ethics do play a part in hunters decision as to where they will hunt. Recently I was involved in some pretty interesting discussions with a long term Zim PH selling hunts on Hwange. I posted the information and my thoughts on it to dissuade as many people from hunting in a National Park.
From accounts of people in Zimbabwe it appears that quotas in Nyakasanga are being abused. From what I understand Bouna (or Bouma) was pushed off Matetsi Two and given quota after the auction sale. It has also been quoted that approximately seven lions were taken from an area that has traditionally had one lion on quota. If this is correct the area cannot sustain the pressure on the lions. We are looking in to the possibility of one of the PHs hunting Nyakasanga having been a PH for Out of Africa when they conducted their atrocities on the wildlife in Zim.
Maybe you could explain the quota system in Nyakasanga as it stands today, such as when the auctions are conducted (Last year was in March), the number of elephant, lion, buffalo, who can bid on them, what other quota is being issued outside of the auction and to whom.
Rastaman - The least of my concerns is your "competition", rest assured of that. Secondly, when you find me representing/selling hunts that are such a gross abuse of wildlife conservation, that it SHOULD be illegal, feel free to call me out - I would welcome the insight.
If Zim Parks was ONLY selling/issuing quota for hunts set-forth at the long-standing auction, no one - including me would have any issue with it, none at all. I just told you above, in addition to the 1 lion sold at auction in 2011 - I know of 7 additional lions shot in Nyakasanga in 2011 alone. In the entire Nyakasanga/Sapi/Rifa, etc, eco-system, 11 male lions were shot in 2011. An area that up to a couple years ago was allotted a maximum of 4!!!
Bouna Safaris - SA, had at least 3 on quota in Nyakasanga, that I know of as well. The very same abuse is happening with the elephant quota, the buffalo quota, and go on down the list. All so unscrupulous officials can line their pockets, and further, the fact that agents/outfitters/PH's would take advantage of said abuse, all in the name of a dollar, is shameful.
I think you would be surprised how much I know about the issues which are currently effecting Nyakasanga. I also find it hard to believe you sir, are NOT aware of the same abuse? In fact you mention above, that what I am saying is "Old News", yet you see no conflict with that, and just carry right on trying to sell it. Unbelievable!!!!!!
As long as abuses like this of the African Lion, and other African game continues, I will NOT mind my own business. "Evil prevails when good men do nothing"
Again, I agree with both of you that the accomodation of bouma safaris that national parks came up with is not fair. They lost matetsi two through some bad politics and were squeezed into nyakasanga. Parks even allowed them to establish a new camp site. This is a bad decision but it didn't ruin the entire Zambezi valley. Craig Boddington wrote in 2010 that the next #1 lion was likely to come out of nyakasanga. I was there in november 2011 and saw 46 lions in 10 days. In fact the current problem is that the lion population has grown to the point that it is impacting buffalo calving. This was November 2011, just a few months after you joined this site. These are facts and not salesmanship.
The reality is that this particular post is an effort to sabotage a hunt offer in the name of concern or conservation. Mr. Neilson could have always written a highly informative and opinionated article on the subject on his own. For instance, I am very concerned about the elephant poaching issue in gonarezhou but it would be out of place for me to start my rant in the middle of mr. Nelson's efforts to book hunts on 14000 ha on the park border which attempts to ambush the elephants if they slip out of the park. This would be just plain dirty competition under the guise of conservation.
Mr. Neilson has recently offered hunts out of. chirisa. This tells me he must not believe the entire country of Zimbabwe or the Valley is ruined. He also offers a fine fenced hunt in Zimbabwe. Surely he understands that money from these hunts goes into the same government pockets as those from the Valley. Please be consistent. Don't hunt Zimbabwe at all or stop drawing lines about which hunts in Zimbabwe help the establishment and which ones do not. If I had a vote I would nominate mr. Neilson as head of national parks in Zimbabwe. Then he could implement a fair and impartial quota system that we would all be proud of. Until then, we are all trying to navigate their craziness and try our best to protect the wildlife until there is a regime change.
Mike, from your endorsement, which I value, it appears that mr. Neilson and I have the same concerns. I had not heard about the out of Africa guys working out of the Valley but I assure you I will be the first to scream about this as I am one of their victims. My issue is that there is no need for a self proclaimed expert in hunting US, Argentina, New Zeland, Africa (all countries therein) and the rest of the planet in general (all developed in a 10 year hunting career) to chime in on a hunt package we have offered.
Hello Rastaman
Trust you doing well . People might want to contact you but I don't see that you posted your name or any contact details or website.
Let's hope they sort out Zim , it's sad .
I never hunted Zim , waiting for the monkey Robert to pass away before I do. The prices for DG is a lot cheaper so I think it makes sense for people who want to do that. Not into that game yet.
Good luck on the hunting
Rastaman - I've been hunting around, a little longer than 10 years - but whatever you say. Interestingly enough, you have chosen the typical tactic of someone who really has nothing of value to add. It's called "deflection", so rather than deal with the issue, you try to "deflect" it back onto someone else. I'm sure most folks here can see through that.
Its obvious by now, that you are fully aware of the HUGE abuse taking place within Nyakasanga over the past couple of years. Unfortunately you seem content with being part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. It would be one thing if you simply were not aware of what was going on, but obviously you are. Not only are you aware, you are supporting and defending it - what a shame!
I'm fairly certain the Zim Parks auction has yet to take place for 2012, correct? So, how is it you are selling something that you don't even yet, have to sell? Or, are you selling part of the grossly over issued quota by Zim parks? A quota, that was never intended to be issued, ever!
The auction is the first week of march, as always. I will be there and invite you to join. There you can take the podium and wax eloquently to all of those who are there to bid that they should leave the building and not buy any hunts in protest. They should send all of their prospective clients to you instead. Then you can give it to the park officials really good. Lay into them regarding your game experience and principals of game management that you learned on your recent Tibetan yak hunt.
I warn you though, there will be a few zimbabwe phs there that are still tryinng to scrape out a living despite what has been done to them. They will not get to fly home to Colorado after the auction. They will not fully understand your wordly perspective and expression that things should be more fair in Zimbabwe. I wish you the best and will buy you a steak dinner in hararre.
Rastaman - Thanks for clarifying, what most of us already knew! You made it appear in your first post that you are selling auction hunt/quotas, but we both know the auction hasn't even taken place yet.
So, either you are selling something you don't actually have, or are participating in the destruction of Nyakasanga's Wildlife? Either way - its all bad!
Good luck, and goodbye!!
Rastaman,
Is this the outfitter and PH?
as listed on RATES/TERMS AND CONDITIONS - BABWE SAFARIS
Are these some of the conditions of this hunt?
"RATES/TERMS AND CONDITIONS
FEE STRUCTURE FOR ZAMBEZI RIVER VALLEY AUCTION HUNTS
We offer a unique fee structure for the hunts in the lower Zambezi Valley. The wilderness hunts in the lower Zambezi Valley are purchased by qualified bidders at a National Park System auction in March of each year. We base our package base price on the previous average auction prices when preparing a quote for you. We will work together in determining the best camp and time of year for the animals you wish to take. We will also establish maximum limits for each of the camps or animals you wish to purchase prior the auction. I will bid at the auction in accordance with your instructions.
We will charge you a daily rate of $500.00 per day for professional hunter services and $3000.00 to outfit the camp and pay the service staff, to include trackers, skinners, cooks and other camp staff. You will pay the National Parks Service the price of the hunt obtained at action.
Under this method you are able to buy the hunt and animals at the "whole sale" level at auction, which price varies somewhat each year depending on the economy and other factors. We do not mark up or charge a fee on top of the auction price.
You can learn more about the National Parks Auction by reviewing the 2010 brochure, attached below.
BOOKING TERMS-AUCTION HUNTS
A deposit of $5,000 is reqiured at least thirty (30) days prior to the auction date. If we are unsuccessful in obtaining your desired hunt arrangements at the auction, your deposit will be returned. Only once the deposit has been received, and the client has signed a safari contract, will we bid at the auction for your desired hunt.
One half of the auction sale price is due within ten (10) days from the auction. This amount will be paid directly to the National Parks System to secure the camp.
The balance of the quoted safari is due and payable no later than sixty (60) days prior to the commencement date of the hunt.
In the event a client cancels a hunt which has been purchased at the auction the deposit, initial payment and balance if within sixty (60) days, shall be forfeited and retained by Babwe Safaris as liquidated damages unless Babwe Safaris or the client are able to fill the same safari dates with a newly acquired client. In such a situation we will do our best to work with you any way possible. Unfortunately, the Zimbabwe National Park System requires full payment by the successful auction bidder prior to the hunt. "
Since you derailed my post I intend to post again. Please answer my one question to you which was when was the last time your two feet where on the ground in nayakasanga?
I know you are a middleman, a salesman that sells hunts for money and maybe even to go on free hunts. You seem to want to take on issues that are a bit above your pay grade. You are not wrong about the south Africa operators or the corruption but we are not involved with either. When you have a solution I will work with you to make it happen. I just don't think that attacking everyone who hunts that area is the right answer. Not buying the quota is also a bad scenario as everyone will tell you the wildlife needs to have value. Be a part of the solution or sit quietly on the sidelines.
Rastaman, Not sure who your last post is directed to... but I'll assume it is a cross posting (delay)Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastaman
I would like to get it on the rails again by figuring out exactly what is being offered? Hence my questions.