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BEWARE of Triangle T Outfitters of Granbury, Tx!!!

This is a discussion on BEWARE of Triangle T Outfitters of Granbury, Tx!!! within the Hunting North America forums, part of the HUNTING OUTSIDE OF AFRICA category; Anyone considering a hunt with Triangle T Outfitters and Ed Tibljas should contact me at: sholtsmaster75@gmail.com . I can tell ...

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    Default BEWARE of Triangle T Outfitters of Granbury, Tx!!!

    Anyone considering a hunt with Triangle T Outfitters and Ed Tibljas should contact me at: sholtsmaster75@gmail.com. I can tell you a 28k horror story about a New Mexico trophy Elk hunt. It started with with a "bait and switch" and ended with us being illegally guided on the Cibola National Forest. Ed Tibljas is NOT a registered Outfitter or a registered guide in the state of NM and did not obtain the necessary "special recreations permits" from the US Forest Service to guide paying hunters on National Forest. The entire hunt was done illegally and we potentially could have been fined if we were caught in the act. VERY SHADY AND EXPENSIVE DEAL! We should have done our homework before we got scammed. Hindsight is 20/20. Please contact me so this doesnt happen to you or someone you know.
    Thanks

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    AfricaHunting.com is online now Jerome Philippe, Founder of AfricaHunting.com
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    Quote Originally Posted by BRICKBURN
    Good luck with your complaint resolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by James.Grage
    holtsie

    First i welcome you to AH.

    Your first post is very good information for potential clients looking at hunting in NM.

    My you win in court
    Quote Originally Posted by AfricaHunting.com
    Thanks for posting your hunt report holtsie37.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baydog
    Thanks for the heads up. Sorry to hear about your hunt...
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Its just very very sad that a man's word doesnt amount to a pile of beans in the world of hunting. Something that is supposed to be a family/friend oriented affair with lots of great experiences and lifelong memories has become as corrupt and dishonest as any other money hungry business out there. Thanks for everyones input.
    Quote Originally Posted by trianglet
    Response from Triangle T Outfitters

    This is a direct response to the claim by Mr. Steven Holtsmaster from the outfitter, Triangle T Outfitters, that Mr. Holtsmaster is making false allegations against. We are well aware of Mr. Steven Holtsmaster and his hunting party of four's false acquisitions regarding this hunt and to this date, approximately 100 days since his hunt took place, the only correspondence we have received from Mr. Holtsmaster is an email (one month after his hunt) threatening to have Ed Tibljas in jail for interstate fraud. His email was directly responded to via our attorney. To this date our attorney nor our company has heard from Mr. Steven Holtsmaster's attorney. The only other correspondence we've heard from Mr. Steven Holtsmaster, to date, his initial email, is two letter's to the BBB, and a hunter in his party has filed a claim for a charge back to his Visa bank card and to American Express.

    Below you will find the brief facts of the hunt as well as a letter written by Mr. Bob Foulkrod, a professional hunter and 15 year client of ours, regarding the same hunt Mr. Steven Holtsmaster claims he was 'baited and switched' on. You can also view other clients stories on our website, Triangle T Outfitters- Granbury, TX. We have never taken advantage of our hunters in the past 46 years of business nor will we begin doing so in the future. Our attorney has been involved since the beginning of Mr. Steven Holtsmaster's false claim and has authorized us to respond in the following manner.

    Here is a brief response to Mr. Steven Holtsmaster's false claims (as we couldn't include all 36 pages of evidence) supporting that Mr. Steven Holtsmaster and party is falsifying the facts and claims against our company.

    Mr. Frank Holtsmaster, Steven's dad, was a referral from a long time client, Trapper G. Mr. Frank Holtsmaster hunted whitetail with T.T.O. before T.T.O. ever began hunting elk in New Mexico. If Triangle T Outfitters was such a scam or did 'bait and switch' guiding tactics, then why in the world would Mr. Frank Holtsmaster want to book himself, his son and two other friends go on an elk hunt??? Mr. Steven Holtsmaster stated that his dad was so excited to go on this [NM elk] hunt. Mr. Frank Holtsmaster couldn't have ever been excited about going on a New Mexico elk hunt (as Steven Holtsmaster implies) as we have only been guiding elk in New Mexico since 2009 and Mr. Frank Holtsmaster hunted Texas whitetails with us prior to that. So that claim made by Mr. Steven Holtsmaster is a bold face lie. Mr. Steven Holtsmaster and his party of four were booked on a discounted rate hunt (since a party of four booked) cost $7,000 each hunter, for a 5 day NM elk hunt in unit 10. Mr. Holtsmaster and party wished to hunt unit 12, however they didn't get a 50% deposit (as stated in their signed contract) to hold the unit 12 tags. Mr. Holtsmaster was made aware that all unit 12 tags were gone and his party agreed to book in unit 10 (as stated in his contract and signed by Mr. Holtsmaster.) Also as stated in Mr. Holtsmaster's contract a hunt is considered booked when a 50% deposit is in our office and the balance of the hunt is due in full by September 1, 2011 or the hunt is subject to late fees and/or cancellation without refund.

    Mr. Holtsmaster claims that we falsified his contract, stating that he never had seen much less signed it. That is a complete lie from Mr. Holtsmaster as it would be impossible to falsify the date stamp with Mr. Holtsmaster's fax machine phone number printed at the top of the contract Mr. Holtsmaster signed and dated. Mr. Holtsmaster nor his party ever gave a 50% deposit and yet we held their party of four, each a guaranteed landowner permit, in unit 10. It was late September before Mr. Holtsmaster and his party had their balance of the hunt paid into our office. We graciously waived their late fee and we didn't cancel their hunt. Hindsight is 20-20!!!!!!! The party of four hunters went on this hunt, arrived a day early in camp and weren't charged an extra day for lodging or meals. Mr. Holtsmaster and Mr. Salansky, of the hunting party, scouted with the outfitter and guide the day before season opened in unit 10 and saw three herds of elk. The weather during this hunt was unseasonably hot and dry with a full moon, for the seasoned hunters, you are aware that this means that the elk move early and late and bed during the day. The party of hunters saw elk each morning on the way to the hunting area and on the way from the hunting area each day (before and after shooting hours). The acquisition regarding the helicopter and gun are an absolute fabrication of Mr. Holtsmaster's imagination and a desperate attempt to gain empathy for him and his party in order to get a credit card refund!!! During this parties hunt none of the hunters ever stated that they were 'baited and switched' as Mr. Holtsmaster claims, nor did they complain about the hunt. In fact they had such a good time (despite the weather and moon phase) that the party tipped their outfitter and guide upon leaving camp. It is our belief that this party booked a hunt beyond their financial means and are trying every way possible to get a refund from their credit card company. Furthermore, the owner, Ed Tibljas, as a seasoned professional hunter, offered this party two free Colorado elk hunts ($5,000 each) to the two physically able sons and two trophy whitetail hunts in Texas ($3,250 each) to the two fathers who aren't able to physically hunt Colorado, as a way to say he was sorry that the animals, moon and weather didn't cooperate during their hunt. After all the state of New Mexico sets the hunting seasons. Furthermore the claim that his outfitter or guide didn't know anything about hunting in unit 10 or elk hunting is bogus, as Ed has been hunting elk for 54 years ( Ed grew up in NE NM hunting elk since a child and has been guiding elk professionally since the late 60's) and Ed has been guiding in this hunting area since 2009. The young guide, Wes M., has been hunting elk since a child and has guided in elk for almost a decade, as Wes grew up and has spent his whole life in Colorado. Mr. Holtsmaster's claims about the website being changed as a coincidence to his 'bait and switch' hunt is not a coincidence at all. Each year we update our website beginning in November and usually finish all updates by early January as we prepare for the upcoming hunting season. You can follow this pattern since we began our website in the late 1990's.


    Here is what professional hunter Bob Foulkrod had to say about the same hunt Mr. Steven Holtsmaster and his party were on.

    January 23, 2012

    RE: Hunt

    To Whom It May Concern:

    My name is Bob Foulkrod and if you want to find out more about me, go to:
    BobFoulkrod.com

    I have been a guide since 1972. I had deer, bear and caribou camps, which I took 40 hunters each year in my deer and bear camps and 250 hunters in caribou camp. I got out of the outfitting business for the same reason Mr. Ed Tibljas is going through [party of NM elk hunters that are claiming they were baited and switched and are trying everything in their power to get a refund, even if it means lying and spreading slander about T.T.O.] Hunting fair chase is NOT a guarantee, but neither is life!

    I've hunted with Ed Tibljas for approximately 15 years. Most of this time was successful, but sometimes not. Let me give you details on the last three years hunting elk in New Mexico. Three years ago, on a rifle hunt, the snow came in and pushed the herd off the mountain. This was NO fault of Ed's, just bad luck with the weather. Last year, it was a full moon, but after sitting and hunting everyday, I had a shot, (I missed), again, NO fault of Ed's. So two years in a row, I came home empty handed. I am booked again for this year in the same camp, same area for another hunt and if it is not too hot nor too cold, too much snow, the wind doesn't blow, or
    We doesn't get rained out and I don't miss again, I might just get me one of those totally awesome great big elk that I know are there for I have seen them several times.

    I've have known Ed for over 15 years and I know one thing, that is: when you shake Ed's hand, that is a bond. Maybe this is why we get along so well.

    Maybe I should tell you about the time I spent in the bush for ten days on a totally different hunt just waiting for the fog to lift! There I was? That's called hunting.
    God Bless America for I Love Hunting.

    The absolute best line I have ever heard in camp was, "NO Whining!"

    Sincerely,
    Bob Foulkrod

    All I have left to say is you, the hunter, will have to make your decision as to which story you will buy into. A disgruntle hunter who is trying every way possible to get a refund on his party's hunt or a professional hunter who has built a business of customer service and exceptional hunter relations over the past 46 years?

    Best Regards,
    Ed Tibljas
    Quote Originally Posted by BRICKBURN
    Ed, Thanks for posting your response and I would appreciate your posting about the resolution of this matter as well.

    Two sides to every story and the reason hunters need to communicate their expectations and understand what is on offer.

    Look forward to the final chapter.
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    BEWARE of Triangle T Outfitters!!!

    Steven Holtsmaster
    Keep making up the lies TTO. Funny how Ed forgot about the helicopter incident and me complaining to him the last day of the hunt as well. I didnt tip. My father did to keep the peace and was well aware that I was not in agreement with it!! He asked me not to cause a scene while he was there and I respected his request. Ed has done nothing but lied about what was told to us the whole time and I didnt expect any different here. As for the late fees waived. We never even saw a contract until after Sept 1st. And as for the hunt being above our financial means, get your facts strait Ed, I paid 13k with a check. The only time I used a card was for the initial $1000 that I gave you (Ed) over the phone to hold the last 4 unit 12 tags because we werent going to be able to make it to the show. Remember Ed, for "good faith", I had good faith and look where it got us. Ed's so called guide also told my friend that he was supposed to be guiding that Ed indeed did overbook the hunt!! We had a 28k New Mexico hike!! I would take a polygraph test and swear under oath to all of the facts in my complaint!! TTO and Ed Tibljas is a fraud!!
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Mr Foulkrod. I have a ton of respect and admiration for you and all that you do for the hunting community. I am in no way shape or form trying to disrespect you or say that you are not being truthful. The issue is with TTO and Ed Tibljas and only them. I just wanted to let that be known. Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Question??

    Here is the question that I would like to see everyone answer in all honesty. If you were charged $28,000 to hunt on public land not the 120 square miles of "privately owned ranch land" that you were told you would be hunting and that was advertised. What would you do?
    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by sestoppelman
    If the situation you describe is accurate, I would feel as you do. We on this end can only guess who is telling the whole truthful story and without knowing the individuals involved..? We can only guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by James.Grage
    This is a forum post where we should keep to ourselves and wait for the final outcome to be posted.

    I am not picking sides i would like to know the final outcome.
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    BEWARE of Triangle T Outfitters!!!

    Here is another very shady fact about the hunt. I was personally guided by Ed Tibljas and numerous times during our "hunt" he said and I quote "IF WE ARE APPROACHED BY ANYONE, TELL THEM THAT YOU ARE ON A SELF GUIDED HUNT"!! After doing some research, I have found that it is illegal to guide on public land without the proper permits. Is that professional??
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    New Mexico Big Game & Fish Rules & Regs

    Anyone outfitting or taking clients on public lands, including landowners or their agents, must obtain a special recreation permit from the appropriate land management agency (BLM, U.S. Forest Service and/or State Land Office). Public land management agencies may place a limit on the number of outfitters operating on public lands. When negotiating with a prospective outfitter for a public land hunt, make certain that they have the necessary permits. Your written contract should include these details.
    Quote Originally Posted by BnC 04
    Looking forward to hearing the final outcome of this whole situation. If fraud did take place hope you recoup your fee's.
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    http://www.triangletoutfitters.com/infosheet.htm

    Take a look at the only rifle New Mexico Elk hunt offered.
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Spoke with the head of the New Mexico Outfitter registry this morning and my suspicions were validated. Mr. Ed Tibljas (Triangle T Outfitters) is NOT a licensed New Mexico outfitter or even a licensed guide in New Mexico. He is also in Federal violation for guiding on U.S Forest without permits. Please everyone pass the word. We don't want this to happen to anyone else.

    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by trianglet
    I thank you to all who have replied to the lies that Mr. Holtsmaster continues to fabricate. I can assure you that the final outcome will be posted on this thread. As each person can make their own assumption and take whomever's side they would like, in the end facts are facts and they never lie. Stay tuned for the final chapter.....
    Quote Originally Posted by trianglet
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Spoke with the head of the New Mexico Outfitter registry this morning and my suspicions were validated. Mr. Ed Tibljas (Triangle T Outfitters) is NOT a licensed New Mexico outfitter or even a licensed guide in New Mexico. He is also in Federal violation for guiding on U.S Forest without permits. Please everyone pass the word. We don't want this to happen to anyone else.

    Thanks
    You don't have to be a registered outfitter if you are an authorized agent of the landowner
    New Mexico State Statue 17-2A-3 NMSA 1978 exempts a landowner or the landowner's authorized agent
    from becoming a registered outfitter or guide. It states that a landowner or their agent can outfit or guide pursuant to a landowner's permit(s) issued by the Department for the landowner's private property OR for the landowner's shared private and public property within a big game management unit.
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    Quote Originally Posted by trianglet
    You don't have to be a registered outfitter if you are an authorized agent of the landowner
    New Mexico State Statue 17-2A-3 NMSA 1978 exempts a landowner or the landowner's authorized agent
    from becoming a registered outfitter or guide. It states that a landowner or their agent can outfit or guide pursuant to a landowner's permit(s) issued by the Department for the landowner's private property OR for the landowner's shared private and public property within a big game management unit.
    The only thing that being a "registered agent" does is exempt you from being a "registered outfitter or guide" is does not permit you to hunt on Federal, State or BLM land without "SPECIAL RECREATION PERMITS FROM THE APPROPRIATE LAND MANAGEMENT AGENCY". Which Ed Tibljas did NOT do. I have already check with them.
    Page 11. NM Big Game Rules and Regs.
    Outfitters and guides providing services in the National Forests must have a permit issued to them by the USFS authorizing them to provide such services on forest lands. Call forest supervisors or district ranger offices responsible for the area you plan to hunt for general information and for information on outfitters and guides authorized to use forest lands. You can get maps from the Office of Information, USFS, 333 Broadway SE, Albuquerque, NM 87102, (505) 842-3292.

    Page 16.
    Anyone outfitting or taking clients on public lands, including landowners or their agents, must obtain a special recreation permit from the appropriate land management agency (BLM, U.S. Forest Service and/or State Land Office). Public land management agencies may place a limit on the number of outfitters operating on public lands. When negotiating with a prospective outfitter for a public land hunt, make certain that they have the necessary permits. Your written contract should include these details.

    I also spoke with the rancher and he said and I quote when I asked him if Ed was a contracted agent "he just takes care of the hunting part of stuff, like a ranch hand".
    Quote Originally Posted by holtsie37
    By the way the whole hunt took place on the CIBOLA NATIONAL FOREST.

    Thanks
    Quote Originally Posted by trianglet
    Our company has no interest in bantering back and forth with Mr. Holtmaster. We can personally assure you that if anything changes we will post the updates. From February 2, 2011 Mr. Steven Holtsmaster has been asked to contact our attorney regarding any further information etc regarding his claims. At this time it is clear that Mr. Holtsmaster is more interested in spreading slander and trying to ruin our reputation via forums and facebook than actually following through with his claim. Our attorney has been involved since Mr. Holtsmasters's initial claim made to our office on November 11, 2011 and has made written correspondence to Mr. Holtsmaster. To this date we haven't heard from Mr. Holtsmaster's attorney nor anyone else regarding this matter. We have upheld the law and to our knowledge we have not broken a single law. Our business was established since 1966 and to date has had no violations.

    We are plumb up to our eyeballs in Mr. Holtsmasters continued lies and fabrication and continual added details regarding this manner on more forums and facebook pages then you can imagine; his posts are to the point that fellow unknown hunters and unknown outfitters have been emailing us all the links where Mr. Holtsmaster is making his claims and telling us that he sounds like a complete liar and that they hope we will sue him for slander, deformation of character and asking us to not let him get away with all the lies he has posted ALL OVER the internet.

    IF anything should change I assure you that our office will post the update as we have nothing to hide. IF you would like to contact our office regarding questions about this false claim please feel free to go to our website where you will find all information to contact us. Triangle T Outfitters- Granbury, TX. Until anything changes we will no long reply to Mr. Holtsmaster's claims.
    Quote Originally Posted by BnC 04
    As a fellow hunter that has hunted elk for many years in several states and spends enough money to do such, I offer my opinion as a simple outsider. For me, I do massive amounts of research before any commitment is made. Now I take into account all reference info with a grain of salt. I have no problem what so ever with an outfitter's client upset because he didn't harvest an animal-that's hunting, but I'm more concerned in the fact if the hunter was able to see the specie he was after and to what extent. I've been on hunts that 3 out of 10 guys reported that they wouldn't go again and I had a great experience. I believe their hunt went bad because either they were out of shape, couldn't shoot straight ect ect. Where I am going with this is the fact for ME, after reading all these posts back in forth is that for ME I wouldn't even bother booking a hunt with any outfitter/guide that has these types of reports on them. At this point in my eyes it doesn't matter what the results are, I'm not taking a chance that it is true or not. I work too d**n hard for my money to take a chance that it is true, "not saying anything is true or not". That's were the factor of and saying that "perception is everything" comes into play. Unfortunately IMHO the damage has been done....
    Quote Originally Posted by James.Grage
    BnC 04

    i will have to second your response...

    This is one of the very reason that i have started going to Africa. The basic cost of hunt in the USA is more than a 10 day safari in many countries in Africa.

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