Concern about Deposit Refund Policy - Bushwack

I am looking for a safari for myself and a couple of buddies. I've been lurking here, and researching other forums for about a year now and have learned a lot here. In my research, I'd have to say "Let the buyer beware with Bushwack." It seems he cares more about money than his fellow man. I cannot provide a link to a couple of very disturbing threads that will back up why I say what I say. As I told the moderator, I'm very sorry for this being my first post here, but potential buyers need to know. I'm looking forward to learning more from the good people here, as I'm very much a novice when it comes to Africa.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

I am looking for a safari for myself and a couple of buddies. I've been lurking here, and researching other forums for about a year now and have learned a lot here. In my research, I'd have to say "Let the buyer beware with Bushwack." It seems he cares more about money than his fellow man. I cannot provide a link to a couple of very disturbing threads that will back up why I say what I say. As I told the moderator, I'm very sorry for this being my first post here, but potential buyers need to know. I'm looking forward to learning more from the good people here, as I'm very much a novice when it comes to Africa.

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welcome to AH, but as you say a bit of a weird start. you will find people on here want some sort of evidence to back up this type of allegation, and also like to hear both sides of the story..........

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Originally Posted by spike.t

welcome to AH, but as you say a bit of a weird start. you will find people on here want some sort of evidence to back up this type of allegation, and also like to hear both sides of the story..........

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And I also prefer that people coming with this sort of allegations state their full name.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

I am looking for a safari for myself and a couple of buddies. I've been lurking here, and researching other forums for about a year now and have learned a lot here. In my research, I'd have to say "Let the buyer beware with Bushwack." It seems he cares more about money than his fellow man. I cannot provide a link to a couple of very disturbing threads that will back up why I say what I say. As I told the moderator, I'm very sorry for this being my first post here, but potential buyers need to know. I'm looking forward to learning more from the good people here, as I'm very much a novice when it comes to Africa.

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Welcome to AH.


I think what JG Raider is referencing a concern about the consequences of a "no refund" cancellation policy that is/was in place. It obviously hits home.

The background:
The cancellation hunt was offered here (and elsewhere) by a man who has bladder cancer.


http://www.africahunting.com/hunts-o...th-africa.html

Written contract in place, Deposit down, late cancellation (health), no insurance, no desire to rebook hunt (client).
No deposit returned.

I agree the buyer needs to be aware of what they are buying and agreeing to and the consequences of those agreements with anyone.

ok brickburn if thats what raider is talking about then it is a sad and unfortunate situation to be in for the gentleman involved, and some people might refund due to the circumstances, however i know plenty of businesses that wouldnt. in this case i dont think it gives cause to put a post of the type that raider did on here.

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Originally Posted by spike.t

ok brickburn if thats what raider is talking about then it is a sad and unfortunate situation to be in for the gentleman involved, and some people might refund due to the circumstances, however i know plenty of businesses that wouldnt. in this case i dont think it gives cause to put a post of the type that raider did on here.

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I totally agree.

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Originally Posted by Norwegianwoods

I totally agree.

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Let's just say that it is a very big topic on another large, popular board that also has a lot of African hunting experience. They all happen to agree with me. As you guys know, linking to another forum is against the rules or it would be very easy to prove what I'm saying. Legal-eze is one thing, decency to a terminally ill customer is another. It's very sad when $$$ takes priority over doing the decent, right thing.

Without totally hijacking this "OFFER" thread I have attempted to put some background in place in order to help people understand JGRaiders post so it did not look like it was totally out of the blue.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

...............They all happen to agree with me. ......... It's very sad when $$$ takes priority over doing the decent, right thing.

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JGRaider, not everyone agreed with you there, nor I doubt will they all agree or disagree here.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

Let's just say that it is a very big topic on another large, popular board that also has a lot of African hunting experience. They all happen to agree with me. As you guys know, linking to another forum is against the rules or it would be very easy to prove what I'm saying. Legal-eze is one thing, decency to a terminally ill customer is another. It's very sad when $$$ takes priority over doing the decent, right thing.

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I have read the witch hunt on the other forum.
And I think it has totally blown out of proportions.
And because of this have I chosen not to comment there as the wolfpack already smells blood.

As I understand has Bushwack offered the unfortunate gentleman a partly refund of his deposit, but the man wants his full deposit back. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

I had to cancel my own hunt this year because of a divorce and would lose some of my deposit if I was not able to make the hunt next year because the outfitter already had paid people for my hunting. As I totally understand and have no problems with at all.
I would not expect the outfitter to refund all my deposit at all. No matter if it was a divorce or cancer that was the reason for canceling a hunt.

It would be a great gesture of Bushwack to refund all of the deposit and take some loses and probably the best thing to do, but there is no reasons at all to find the rope and be ready to hang him as so many of you want on the other forum for him not wanting to refund the full deposit.
I probably would do things differently to Buswack in that situation, but I am for sure not ready to hang him.

That said, I think it is a great thing what some on that forum do, funding a hunt for the sick man if he recovers from his cancer.
And I really hope he totally recovers and will be able to go hunting in Africa soon.

100% agreed Norwegian, brickburn and spike...

My best always

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Originally Posted by BRICKBURN

Without totally hijacking this "OFFER" thread I have attempted to put some background in place in order to help people understand JGRaiders post so it did not look like it was totally out of the blue.



JGRaider, not everyone agreed with you there, nor I doubt will they all agree or disagree here.

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Maybe not 100%, but you need to do a recount. 98% of them do. Just to correct the record. I have no qualms with you or anyone else who disagrees, but you can't post 1% of the posts over there and represent them as a majority of the facts. In situations like this you really learn quickly who deserves the business, and the ones that are last on the list. I"m a part time outfitter here in the West, and I wouldn't think of keeping a guys money under these circumstances.

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Originally Posted by Norwegianwoods

I have read the witch hunt on the other forum.


As I understand has Bushwack offered the unfortunate gentleman a partly refund of his deposit, but the man wants his full deposit back. (Please correct me if I am wrong)

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Here's just one reply from the other forum. Looks like you need to check your facts Norwegian.......

"The problem remains that this was just business for you...you kept the client's deposit because you could. That doesn't make it the right thing to do.

The deposit was in excess of the daily rate for the entire safari. Carolinasman did in fact ask you to keep whatever amount you had already spent on his safari and you refused. You wanted all the money and you got all the money. You also will live with the ramifications of your decision."

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

Maybe not 100%, but you need to do a recount. 98% of them do. Just to correct the record. I have no qualms with you or anyone else who disagrees, but you can't post 1% of the posts over there and represent them as a majority of the facts. In situations like this you really learn quickly who deserves the business, and the ones that are last on the list. I"m a part time outfitter here in the West, and I wouldn't think of keeping a guys money under these circumstances.

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You have now incorrectly assumed that I disagree. I merely corrected your blanket assertion.
At no point have I shared my opinion, although I have done so privately with the parties involved when the original thread was posted, during my initial verification of the post.

Glad you have joined in.
It is your choice where you spend your money and book your hunts.

So, what questions have you learned to ask from this encounter?

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

I am looking for a safari for myself and a couple of buddies. I've been lurking here, and researching other forums for about a year now and have learned a lot here. In my research, I'd have to say "Let the buyer beware with Bushwack." It seems he cares more about money than his fellow man. I cannot provide a link to a couple of very disturbing threads that will back up why I say what I say. As I told the moderator, I'm very sorry for this being my first post here, but potential buyers need to know. I'm looking forward to learning more from the good people here, as I'm very much a novice when it comes to Africa.

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I happen to agree with you. I also was involved in the other forum in making sure the client was reimbused for his deposit, even thou the PH refused to. I sent you a PM regarding who I feel you can trust to act as a PH you would like to deal with. Sorry the thread got highjacked, perhaps it can be broken out into a thread regarding ethics and morals of hunter/safari operator.

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Originally Posted by arizona

I happen to agree with you. I also was involved in the other forum in making sure the client was reimbused for his deposit, even thou the PH refused to. I sent you a PM regarding who I feel you can trust to act as a PH you would like to deal with. Sorry the thread got highjacked, perhaps it can be broken out into a thread regarding ethics and morals of hunter/safari operator.

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That is a great idea and if JGRaider does not mind I will ask J to do so.
I do not have those magical powers.
A healthy debate and discussion may help all involved.

Feel free to do with it what you guys feel best. I do know that the word has spread quickly about BushLeague Safaris. I have several hunting brokers that book my hunts and they've all been informed of what's going on. My goal is to just present the facts about this particular outfit, and let the chips fall where they may. I know this is the type of information I seek out when referencing outfitters. There are many reputable outfitters out there and my goal is to find them and get comfortable with whom I'll spend my money. It amazes me some nitwit equates a divorce/deposit forfeiture with a guy who contracted terminal cancer. Amazing.

There are certain things we can not forget especially from the outfitters side.

Preparations that have been done for such a safari, I for one feel that if a safari is cancelled 90 or less days no deposit refund is available (there could be extreme cases but each should be taken on merit), ph's in some cases have been contracted and in my opinion such a ph still needs to be paid for said safari, as mentioned maybe a partial return...... Up to each and every outfitter.

It also happens that a client cancels a safari due to health/wealth/family or personal reasons/ as already mentioned this is up to the outfitter, but lets say a reimbursement is agreed upon,..... What if there was another hunter in the party that cancels his safari purely because his friend can not make it??????

99% of outfitters are straight shooters, the deposit reimbursement issue will always be a big one, I have had clients cancel Limpopo based safaris and swing reimbursed deposits to an Eastern cape outfitter....

In the end it comes down to you the outfitter if a partial reimbursement is what you can do then it should be relayed to the client, clients should also be flexible and understanding as understanding as outfitters should be, in my mind it makes no sense to hurt someone that's already hurting, wether it be from a sudden loss of health or business,

Every situation can be taken on merit and a decision made accordingly.
There is simply no way that an outfitter can advertise a deposit return policy it will undoubtedly open doors to needles cancelations.

Most outfits have a FORCE MAJURE on the back of their contract, I would like to urge potential clients to read this but also ask very direct questions to their outfitter with regards to deposit returns it will remove any uncertainty with regards to this subject, also if you do not agree mention it, and see if you can find a middle road.

It will most definitely avoid incidents like these.

My very best always

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Originally Posted by Jaco Strauss

There are certain things we can not forget especially from the outfitters side.

Preparations that have been done for such a safari, I for one feel that if a safari is cancelled 90 or less days no deposit refund is available (there could be extreme cases but each should be taken on merit), ph's in some cases have been contracted and in my opinion such a ph still needs to be paid for said safari, as mentioned maybe a partial return...... Up to each and every outfitter.

It also happens that a client cancels a safari due to health/wealth/family or personal reasons/ as already mentioned this is up to the outfitter, but lets say a reimbursement is agreed upon,..... What if there was another hunter in the party that cancels his safari purely because his friend can not make it??????

99% of outfitters are straight shooters, the deposit reimbursement issue will always be a big one, I have had clients cancel Limpopo based safaris and swing reimbursed deposits to an Eastern cape outfitter....

In the end it comes down to you the outfitter if a partial reimbursement is what you can do then it should be relayed to the client, clients should also be flexible and understanding as understanding as outfitters should be, in my mind it makes no sense to hurt someone that's already hurting, wether it be from a sudden loss of health or business,

Every situation can be taken on merit and a decision made accordingly.
There is simply no way that an outfitter can advertise a deposit return policy it will undoubtedly open doors to needles cancelations.

Most outfits have a FORCE MAJURE on the back of their contract, I would like to urge potential clients to read this but also ask very direct questions to their outfitter with regards to deposit returns it will remove any uncertainty with regards to this subject, also if you do not agree mention it, and see if you can find a middle road.

It will most definitely avoid incidents like these.

My very best always

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Jaco,


This was exactly the case...and the contract indicated all pro's, con's, insurance to be taken out ect...I had expenses to be paid...I was only given 4 days before the safari would begin, notice.

What JGRaider AND FRIENDS don't know is all the PM's i getting supporting me in the decision i have made by not refunding this deposit. Ex-judges, Lawyers , Doctors and hunting Outfitters across the board, even and listen to this; even friends of the same community that judged and trialed me...

Is it wrong to offer a good hunting deal...this is a forum for hunting and this is what i do and can offer...nothing wrong with that

Bushwack, I understand completely and would have probably followed the same route, I hope this dust settles around this very quickly and that both parties can move on.

Send me a PM

My best always.

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Originally Posted by JGRaider

Feel free to do with it what you guys feel best. I do know that the word has spread quickly about BushLeague Safaris. I have several hunting brokers that book my hunts and they've all been informed of what's going on. My goal is to just present the facts about this particular outfit, and let the chips fall where they may. I know this is the type of information I seek out when referencing outfitters. There are many reputable outfitters out there and my goal is to find them and get comfortable with whom I'll spend my money. It amazes me some nitwit equates a divorce/deposit forfeiture with a guy who contracted terminal cancer. Amazing.

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If you had read my post well, then you would have seen that I said that I probably would have done it differently compared to Bushwack, but I guess you already smell to much blood and have already tied the knot and are not able to be objective.
Or maybe I made myself unclear in that post since English is not my first language.

I happen to know a bit about cancer as I have several in my family that have died from it and some that have survived cancer too, but they and I would never have expected someone to refund them money because of the situation.

2 simple rules; read the contract before you sign it and buy an insurance if you think the amount is to high to lose if something should happen.

This nitwit will now leave this thread so you can get the space you need for the hanging JGRaider.

And I still think this is a great offer.