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Concern about Deposit Refund Policy - Bushwack

This is a discussion on Concern about Deposit Refund Policy - Bushwack within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the HUNT AFRICA category; For what reason do clients often feel that if an outfitter makes a business minded decision that he is greedy ...

  1. #41
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    For what reason do clients often feel that if an outfitter makes a business minded decision that he is greedy and that its all about the money..... This is a subject that comes up way to often on this forum and I consider it to be absolute BULLSH!t....

    This will make me extremely unpopular but then in the other hand I am not here to win a popularity contest I am here to provide superior levels of service deliver great trophies send home happy clients ( in most cases new friends) AND PROBABLY THE MIST IMPORTANT SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND THE MULTITUDE OF LABOURERS AND THEIR FAMILIES THAT MAKES THE GREAT BIG SETUP WORK THE WAY IT SHOULD.

    I have been reading all these threads and it's astounding that a large majority of consumers want everything for bottom dollar and often complain then when they receive dodgy levels of service....

    Outfitters run businesses it should be NO SECRET so yes 99.9% of all decisions should be business orientated any successful buisiness man on this forum should vouch for that, compassion should be there that is a no brainer but in certain cases the same is expected from a client.....

    By some weird twist of fate or Gods will things happen, how we handle situations in our lives and or businesses (which in our industry is heavely intwined) often has a direct result on both...

    Outfitters are human of course we have compassion often though we also have to make ends meet and pay bills, it is not to say what can be regarded as a past time and luxury/pleasure for one should not be deemed buisiness for the other, that just makes no sense...

    Once again as myself and Spike and everyone has said PLEASE READ FORCE MAJURE OR THE CONTRACTS TAKE OUT THE INSURANCE YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT CURVE BALL LIFE THROWS AT YOU, DISCUSS CONTRACT DETAILS BEFORE SIGHNING SUCH CONTRACT AND BE OPEN WITH THE OUTFITTER YOU ARE DEALING WITH,....

    99.9% of all African outfitters are straight shooters and wether you like it or not you will get a straight and honest reply.....



    My best always
    Jaco Strauss
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  2. #42
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    ....
    Quote Originally Posted by Bushwack View Post
    Trophy / Management hunt combination Package:
    7 days, 6 nights, for:

    Each time a hunter shoots a big trophy animals specie from the trophy list, he/she would earn the right to take TWO cull / management animal at NO CHARGE EXTRA.

    Big Trophy List:

    Eland @ US 2 400
    Gemsbuck @ US 1 450
    Giraffe @US 3 200
    Nyala @ US 2 800
    Red Hartebeest @ US 1 100
    Waterbuck @ US 2 200
    Blue Wildebeest @US 1 300
    Black Wildebeest @US 1 300
    Zebra @US 1 300
    Kudu @US 2 400

    Cull list: (female / young males)

    Impala
    Blesbuck
    Springbuck
    Warthog

    Day rate:

    US260 (1x1) & (2X1)
    US160 (Observer)


    Area: North West and/or boundary of Limpopo Provinces
    Ranch size: 500ha - 1400ha
    High Fenced: Yes
    PH: Myself
    PH no: 2012/08 & CPM-302-00106
    Outfitter: Myself
    Outfitter no: 2012/019

    Included:

    Airport transfer - pickup and return to local airport
    Ground transportation,
    Lodging, meals and drinks (Soft drinks, bottled water, local table wine and beer),
    Laundry (Except Sundays),
    Transportation of trophies to the taxidermy,
    Hunting licences,
    Skinning / salting of trophies,
    Services of tracker / skinner and licensed Professional Hunter,
    Government tax, 14% VAT.

    Not included:

    Airfare,
    Dip & Pack,
    Shipment of trophies,
    Taxidermy costs,
    Gratuity (Clients own discretion),
    Air charters,
    Hotel accommodation before and after the safari, items of a personal nature,
    Jaco Strauss
    Kwalata Wilderness safaris - South Africa/Mozambique
    Jaco@kwalata.com
    www.kwalata.com

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaco Strauss View Post
    For what reason do clients often feel that if an outfitter makes a business minded decision that he is greedy and that its all about the money..... This is a subject that comes up way to often on this forum and I consider it to be absolute BULLSH!t....

    This will make me extremely unpopular but then in the other hand I am not here to win a popularity contest I am here to provide superior levels of service deliver great trophies send home happy clients ( in most cases new friends) AND PROBABLY THE MIST IMPORTANT SUPPORT MY FAMILY AND THE MULTITUDE OF LABOURERS AND THEIR FAMILIES THAT MAKES THE GREAT BIG SETUP WORK THE WAY IT SHOULD.

    I have been reading all these threads and it's astounding that a large majority of consumers want everything for bottom dollar and often complain then when they receive dodgy levels of service....

    Outfitters run businesses it should be NO SECRET so yes 99.9% of all decisions should be business orientated any successful buisiness man on this forum should vouch for that, compassion should be there that is a no brainer but in certain cases the same is expected from a client.....

    By some weird twist of fate or Gods will things happen, how we handle situations in our lives and or businesses (which in our industry is heavely intwined) often has a direct result on both...

    Outfitters are human of course we have compassion often though we also have to make ends meet and pay bills, it is not to say what can be regarded as a past time and luxury/pleasure for one should not be deemed buisiness for the other, that just makes no sense...

    Once again as myself and Spike and everyone has said PLEASE READ FORCE MAJURE OR THE CONTRACTS TAKE OUT THE INSURANCE YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT CURVE BALL LIFE THROWS AT YOU, DISCUSS CONTRACT DETAILS BEFORE SIGHNING SUCH CONTRACT AND BE OPEN WITH THE OUTFITTER YOU ARE DEALING WITH,....

    99.9% of all African outfitters are straight shooters and wether you like it or not you will get a straight and honest reply.....



    My best always

    BAM !!!!! BTW Jaco,,, I don't think bullshit is off limits, it's a product not a bad word...
    "That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche // That which does not kill me, better run like hell" Scott Smith

  4. #44
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    JgRaider, you have the right to disagree with Bushwack, but you have no right whatsoever to insult him.

    We pride ourselves to be a gentlemen s forum and behaviour like yours is not welcome here.

  5. #45
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    I wonder if the Airline that the hunter was booked on is getting the same attention for enforcing their cancellation policy?

    They have likely kept much more money than the outfitter.

    I have not heard anything about that?? Have you JGRaider?

  6. #46
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    I haven't heard anything about the airline. The hunter is/has been in the hospital very recently getting chemo for his bladder cancer. One member of the other forum has found an outfitter who will provide a safari for this gentleman at or below cost, donating his daily fees as his part of the contribution to this hunter. Many of us will pony up whatever cost is required to send this man on his dream hunt, assuming of course that he's able after his treatments. Very, very considerate of this outiftter to do this.

    Nyati, not one "gentleman" over here has offered any assistance whatsoever. How ironic.

    Jaco, I serisouly doubt 99.9% of the outfitters are "straight shooters". Too many reports and reviews say otherwise. No offense intended towards you.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGRaider View Post
    I haven't heard anything about the airline. The hunter is/has been in the hospital very recently getting chemo for his bladder cancer. One member of the other forum has found an outfitter who will provide a safari for this gentleman at or below cost, donating his daily fees as his part of the contribution to this hunter. Many of us will pony up whatever cost is required to send this man on his dream hunt, assuming of course that he's able after his treatments. Very, very considerate of this outiftter to do this.
    JGRaider AKA Mr. J Grimes. grimesgang@msn.com, perhaps you are unaware of how many 'dual citizens" there are Including the individuals offering the hunts Ian Blakeway and the funds from agency fees from hunts booked (Bossie Mostert) (even though he has previously been roasted by those members for his hunt offerings there).

    Since you are a member of at least 6 forums I think you might be able to grasp the concept that people can belong to more than one forum and do not need to comment on each forum, nor always do so publicly.


    I noticed on another forum, where we are also mutual members, that your post on this subject has gained 100% agreement in its reply. All ONE of them. No one else has posted a reply. That forum, which also has a host of dual citizens, has not joined in your "dog pile", nor offered assistance publicly. Since you have posted there for some time perhaps you can throw some mud at those members.

    Go chase the airline down for the money they "stole". Faceless villains that they are.
    But everyone already knows that airlines will not refund your money if you cancel late and will rebook you, on some fares, for an additional fee. If not, you have either got insurance or you are out of luck and forfeit the money. Sick or not.

    Hope he has stage I or II and all these pledges can turn out to be something more than just digital blather!

    Sending cash for his care might be a more useful exercise JGRaider.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGRaider View Post
    I haven't heard anything about the airline. The hunter is/has been in the hospital very recently getting chemo for his bladder cancer. One member of the other forum has found an outfitter who will provide a safari for this gentleman at or below cost, donating his daily fees as his part of the contribution to this hunter. Many of us will pony up whatever cost is required to send this man on his dream hunt, assuming of course that he's able after his treatments. Very, very considerate of this outiftter to do this.

    Nyati, not one "gentleman" over here has offered any assistance whatsoever. How ironic.

    Jaco, I serisouly doubt 99.9% of the outfitters are "straight shooters". Too many reports and reviews say otherwise. No offense intended towards you.
    Ironic? No I don't find it ironic.

    Charitable giving whether it be time or money is a personal decision. Whether we choose to or not and if we do the when, where and how is again a personal decision. For me I choose to donate money through my employer as they match dollar for dollar what its employees donate. We also have a certain amount of control where our dollars go. I also donate time and money through the church I attend. Again I have a certain amount of control of how thats done.

    I rarely ever give money directly to someone and when I do it is usually to someone that I know. The last time I was tempted to give money to a stranger was to one those fellows standing at street corner with a "Help" sign. For whatever reason that day I felt motivated to give this fellow a few bucks and as I came to a stop I dug a fiver out of my pocket. As I rolled down the window and turned to get the guy's attention I realized I was going to interrupt the conversation he was having on his cell phone!! Needless to say the $5 went back into my pocket. You see for me there's a certain amount of responsibility that comes with donating. I want to make sure it is for legitimate purposes.

    When Carolinasman showed up here at AH with his hunt he wanted to sell, I certainly had empathy for him. I didn't have any reason to think then or now that he wasn't telling the truth. But at the same time, how do I know? I've never met the man.

    Have you ever heard of anyone winning an auction hunt at DSC or SCI that went pennies on the dollar for its value? Sometimes folks like that end up "having to sell that hunt due to unforeseen circumstances" and some of those folks were in reality just selling the hunt at a profit to themselves. This is a topic that has come up before and it has been discussed that only the auction winners can take that hunt.

    Now lets take Bushwhack. With the state of the world economy, who knows what his financial position is? He may be struggling to make ends meet. He no doubt is taking a certain loss with the loss of this hunt. Even though he kept the deposit, he won't be making money on any trophy fees or tips he may have received. Then again he may be doing extremely well and refunding Carolinasman deposit may have not been at all painful. I don't have the man's financial books and wouldn't know. So I'm just not inclined to arrive at a conclusion that lacks facts for a basis.

    I love this place, we are generally a pretty friendly lot here. One of the reasons I love this place is you rarely get this soap opera b.s. like this thread has turned into. I also appreciate the other forum where I am also a member. The other forum has a wealth of knowledge that I have most definitely benefitted from.

    When Carolinasman showed up here which he did before going to the other forum, I was not in a position to buy his hunt on such short notice and I was already booked for 2013. I did however take a minute of time to write him a PM. In that PM I directed him over to the other forum as another place to sell his hunt. He did so in short order and now as a result of that all of these great things that you wrote about have occurred. But now as a result of going to the other forum through a contact at AH you're now over here insulting the entire membership of AH..........now that I find to most definitely be ironic.
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  9. #49
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    Thanks for your concern shooter. The forum where this started has 112 replies so far, 98% of them positive for the cause, just to set the record straight. The man mentioned nothing of the airline, so I won't ask him, as he is in treatment. Cash has already been sent, but thanks for the idea, albeit very late. BTW I'm not the quarterback of this campaign, just an interested contributor. I appreciate the thoughts though.

    Not only an I unaware, I haven't a clue what you're referring to and have never heard of those good folks.

    shooter said "perhaps you are unaware of how many 'dual citizens" there are Including the individuals offering the hunts Ian Blakeway and the funds from agency fees from hunts booked (Bossie Mostert) (even though he has previously been roasted by those members for his hunt offerings there)."

  10. #50
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    Excellent post Phoenix Phil. I appreciate all that you said. In going back and reading this thread again, I don't see how I insulted anyone here except Bushwack. If I did insult anyone here, I apologize as that is not and was not my intent. Most guys here think my intent was misguided, and I understand all of the valid points made to that regard. If I had it to do over again, I may do it differently here, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. I will say this, though. I'm looking for a safari for myself and 3 buddies, which is why I've been lurking here for a year or so. I like finding out everything I can about an outfitter, the good, bad, and ugly. I guess I felt like there were other safari neophytes here that shared my same thoughts. As I mentioned I outfit some myself and would expect potential customers to do the same in checking us out very thoroughly. Maybe I was wrong, not sure.

    Kudos to you and your charitable giving. It's what makes the world go 'round. When I give with a charitable heart, I expect nothing in return.

  11. #51
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    JGRaider - Disagreeing with someones actions is perfectly acceptable. Insulting someone because you don't agree with those actions is not acceptable. You sir continue a very transparent agenda invoking havoc without any intention of seeing, hearing or understanding the other side of the story. Just because one is in business does not mean they can afford to take a loss. I have spent many hours fund raising for different causes, including cancer. I feel sympathy for this individual and I understand the importance of supporting him financially. Attempting to sabotage someones business, because they didn't contribute to the cause you support, is deplorable. This behavior is not honorable, , nor is it welcome here on this forum.
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    Thanks Stretch, and kudos to your fundraising efforts. In case you missed it, I mentioned, in the post above yours that I'd probably go about it differently if I had it to do over again, and apologized to everyone here. Good thing I had my feelings taken out with my tonsils when I was 5 or you would have hurt them.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGRaider View Post
    Thanks Stretch, and kudos to your fundraising efforts. In case you missed it, I mentioned, in the post above yours that I'd probably go about it differently if I had it to do over again, and apologized to everyone here. Good thing I had my feelings taken out with my tonsils when I was 5 or you would have hurt them.
    Apology accepted. Thank you
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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by JGRaider View Post
    Nyati, not one "gentleman" over here has offered any assistance whatsoever. How ironic.
    Quote Originally Posted by JGRaider View Post
    Excellent post Phoenix Phil. I appreciate all that you said. In going back and reading this thread again, I don't see how I insulted anyone here except Bushwack. If I did insult anyone here, I apologize as that is not and was not my intent. Most guys here think my intent was misguided, and I understand all of the valid points made to that regard. If I had it to do over again, I may do it differently here, but hindsight is 20/20 I guess. I will say this, though. I'm looking for a safari for myself and 3 buddies, which is why I've been lurking here for a year or so. I like finding out everything I can about an outfitter, the good, bad, and ugly. I guess I felt like there were other safari neophytes here that shared my same thoughts. As I mentioned I outfit some myself and would expect potential customers to do the same in checking us out very thoroughly. Maybe I was wrong, not sure.

    Kudos to you and your charitable giving. It's what makes the world go 'round. When I give with a charitable heart, I expect nothing in return.
    In this post is a partial quote from your reply to Nyati in which you were apparently suggesting something about the gentlemen of AH. I took that as an insult. If that was not your intent then my bad.

    There are plenty of safari neophytes or at least former neophytes here. And we seem to add them on a regular basis. So welcome to AH and please stick around. As a one timer to Africa I certainly don't have an excessive amount of experience.

    One of the things you may learn when you get to Africa is just how much is invested prior to arriving. I do not wish to insult any outfitter here in the U.S. but it's different in Africa. We're not talking about a few tents up in the mountains where someone went to the local grocery store and loaded up. Then took those groceries maybe an hour or two away to a trailhead and headed up by horseback to the tent camp.

    In Africa it's at least this difficult to have the hunt setup. But there are chefs, maids, trackers/skinners and PH's that are hired. The level of service is not like here in America, it's taken to a whole different level whether you're in the middle of nowhere in Tanzania or even relatively close to Johannesburg.

    Much of this has to be paid for of course in advance and hence the deposits. Should Bushwhack have ate all of this? Perhaps, but that would be awfully easy for me to say not being the one to eat the loss and not having all of the relevant facts.
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    as its theoretically new i will stick my oar in again..... phil you have put a couple of good posts on here bringing up very good points about hunting set ups in africa ,the unknowns of peoples financial situations in todays economic crap house, and also how and if you want to make charitable donations.

    JGRaider its also good that you state in hindsight you would have gone about this in a different way if you had the chance again, instead of the bull in a china shop scenario we have witnessed.

    i have to disagree on your statement saying 98 percent on the other site agree as i had a look. a majority yes, but nowhere near the percentage you quote. i am not a member of it so am not interested in getting into any discussions about that.

    one other thing its admirable that the members including yourself have come up with another hunt, even though this one could have been rolled over i believe. however i do believe charitable donations should be made without any desire for publicity or congratulations.

    as phil said please stick around and join in, but how about moving on from this subject, and lets all hope carolinasman`s treatments work and he can make the trip to hunt in africa.

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    As the hunter that booked and cancelled this hunt I feel the need to clarify a few things I cancelled the hunt 2 days after being diagnosed, approximately 3 weeks after sending in the deposit and a bit more than a week prior to the hunt.

    Everything was put together pretty quick, probably not the best way to do this in hindsight.....I travel to SA a bit on business and had booked the trip around a business trip, which of course was canceled as well.

    I fully understand Patrick's need to recoup his expenses and I offered to reimburse him for any expenses related to my hunt, I most certainly did not "demand" a full refund and quite frankly do not care for the misrepresentation that has been stated.

    I understand the legality of a contract, he is well within his rights. Probably not what I'd have done, but it takes all types to make the world go around..... Trying to sell the hunt didn't work, not a single offer.

    In hindsight I should have purchased insurance, I should not have booked this so quickly and should have done a bit more research before booking, all lessons learned.

    Bushwhack Safaris can keep my deposit, I will not be rebooking with them nor will I continue to try and sell the hunt. As far as I'm concerned I'm done with the whole affair. My sole focus at this point is beating this cancer.

    Regards

    John

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    John, I sincerely hope you can beat the cancer and make it to Africa and spend some great years with your wife and children.

    My sister in law is trying to beat pancreatic cancer right now and my prayers are with both of you and anyone else suffering with this disease.

    Practice whispering before you leave for Africa!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolinasman View Post
    As the hunter that booked and cancelled this hunt I feel the need to clarify a few things I cancelled the hunt 2 days after being diagnosed, approximately 3 weeks after sending in the deposit and a bit more than a week prior to the hunt.

    Everything was put together pretty quick, probably not the best way to do this in hindsight.....I travel to SA a bit on business and had booked the trip around a business trip, which of course was canceled as well.

    I fully understand Patrick's need to recoup his expenses and I offered to reimburse him for any expenses related to my hunt, I most certainly did not "demand" a full refund and quite frankly do not care for the misrepresentation that has been stated.

    I understand the legality of a contract, he is well within his rights. Probably not what I'd have done, but it takes all types to make the world go around..... Trying to sell the hunt didn't work, not a single offer.

    In hindsight I should have purchased insurance, I should not have booked this so quickly and should have done a bit more research before booking, all lessons learned.

    Bushwhack Safaris can keep my deposit, I will not be rebooking with them nor will I continue to try and sell the hunt. As far as I'm concerned I'm done with the whole affair. My sole focus at this point is beating this cancer.

    Regards

    John
    John My prayers go up for you with the hope of full recovery. I fully understand your Predicament this is coming from a guy who just a few weeks ago lost a sister-in-law of 34 years to cancer that had been fighting it for three years and that has a Sister at this time has had a full head of hair almost from birth to be wearing a wig from just her third treatment for cancer. As you put it the fault lays on both you and bushwack and Business is Business don't just quit if he has offered you to book your hunt at a later date then take him up on it, it will give you something other then life itself to fight for. Praying for you Bob
    Enjoy life now -- it has an expiration date.

  19. #59
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    John - My deepest and most sincere thoughts to you. Godspeed fellow hunter.

    Always remember your humanity, allowing yourself the feelings and emotions that are you. By doing this, you will make life-changing self-discoveries that you were never aware of. These discoveries will bring some understanding of the experience, motivation to face the most difficult challenges, and inspiration to others who will marvel at your never-before-seen spirit and character.
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    John

    May God give you the strength and power to beat the cancer, I had to cancel couple hunts on short notice when my first wife got breast cancer and over the next 14 months as we fought the battle together I never worried about the money or hunts. After She lost the battle both outfitters rebooked the hunt, so at least for me it was standard business deal. They did not have to but wanted too, so I agree maybe when your emotions and shock from your diagnosis wear off you can step back and take another look at the offer he made you. So you have the right idea about focus on your battle and then you can plan a celebration hunt.

    Welcome to AH and prayers for a speedy recovery after you win your battle.
    Bigun

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