So very true! what you are saying about daily rates and what it covers.
But I will still not book a hunter that only wants to pay daily rates and shoot freebies!!
You must remember as most posts remarked on the "good old days" things has changed a lot in South Africa in as far as hunting regulations goes and there is no more animals classified as vermin!
THAT IS EXACTLY WHY PERMITS ARE NOW REQUIRED FOR THESE SO CALLED VERMIN, and remember - before - the hunt takes place.
It is also interresting that everybody only comments on SA and Namibia where they want these animals for free.
What about ALL other African countries where you hunt on government concessions?
It is OK that there you have to pay for Baboon and Jackal there, but not in SA and Namibia????? Because there the governments insist on trophy fees?
As for our friend Skyline that started this post, that are also selling hunts in Tanzania and their price for Jackal $300 and Baboon $150 --- is this now acceptable because it is not in SA????
As mentioned, laws and regulations pertaining to the hunting industry in SA has changed and we have to live with it when it comes to the export of trophies.
Remember my previos post:
Also the amount and cost of permits and paperwork with primates for export etc. is something very few people know of - even separate crating is required.
I don't charge clients that shoot these animals in passing by if no paperwork/permits are involved!
There is no more such a thing as FREE if you want to take it home! your Free animal will still cost you about $100+ for Permits, paperwork and Dip Pack fees and if it is a primate even double that! :rolleyes:
Afriventure........this forum is not filled with dummies. Everyone knows that paperwork costs money. Many outfitters are charging the trophy fees and a skinning/processing fee for each animal killed and then dipping/packing fees later as well.
Hunters have to buy hunting licences and licences to hunt coyote or wolf over here in most jurisdictioins and by golly I have to skin it for the hunter and salt it so he can take it home and with wolf there is a CITES permit required.........etc, etc. The rest of the world is not a lot different. I do not charge a trophy fee for a coyote and it is just part of the game and a little added bonus for guys who book. I have never had a hunter abuse the privilege.
Personally when I look at the way some operators are charging it is a nickel and dime nightmare.
What is South Africa charging as a licence/trophy fee for jackal? Not the trophy fee rate set by the operator that they pocket, the actual fees to government?
Did I say I would pay $300 for a jackal in Tanzania? Not likely! Furthermore I doubt very much that you are going to get too many hunters that travel from North America to RSA to just drive around in your Toyota and shoot free jackals. I do not get big game hunters coming with me paying the fee for a 7 day big game hunt and then not buying licences for big game and just shooting 'free' coyotes. I do get guys that want to hunt coyotes in the winter for the hides and they pay for a full hunt.
I have never had a hunter contact me about booking in Africa and their main focus was to have the PH drive around so they could just shoot free jackals and baboons.
I pay daily rates when I go to Africa and outside of animals that you need to speak for in advance due to quota/availability issues I do NOT expect to be pressured into pulling the trigger on anything..............that is my choice. If the outfitter is depending on the trophy fees that much then his daily rates are probably too low............... I would never hunt with an operator nor send hunters to an operator that was going to have the attitude that a certain number of animals had to hit the ground. If I want to spend my whole hunt looking for a 24 inch Impala or a 30 inch Nyala, that is my choice.......otherwise we are not promoting hunting we are promoting killing............and hopefully most hunters at some point in their life develop beyond just killing. That is one of the big problems today..........too many hunters are not maturing and the PH's/Guides are suppose to be promoting and helping hunters evolve into hunters and all that goes with it, not just head collectors for profit.
This was not a personal attack, I was reacting in general on various posts made -like:
"I would never hunt with someone who want to charge me 200$ for a baboon or a jackal. "
08-01-2009 06:07 AM
I also never said that you are prepared to pay $300 for a Jackal - this is what I wrote:;)
"As for our friend Skyline that started this post, that are also selling hunts in Tanzania and their price for Jackal $300 and Baboon $150 --- is this now acceptable because it is not in SA????"
Fact is, and I agree with you, that some outfitters are selling jackal etc. and then adding all the fees on top of that. It is not only "Vermin" I am referring to here, some (also worldwide) have a LOT of hidden costs!!
Lesson here to everybody, ask the right questions when enquiring about a hunt/safari. Not only what is included or excluded in the Safari, HOW MUCH is the costs of the Not Included, ie: the dip pack, shipping etc!
And luckily, yes this forum is not filled with dummies!!
Afriventure...apparently my reply sounded too stern. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent of what you were saying as well, but I did not take anything as a personal attack. The reason RSA and Namibia figured in the conversation was because so many hunters have hunted there and in years gone by, jackals, baboon and even game birds were often 'included'. If you popped a jackal or two on the hunt or spent an afternoon at a tank shooting birds it was just part of the hunt.
Now they are not. Now it is common for a $100 + trophy fee on a jackal, $150-$200 for a baboon and I have seen several operators charging an extra fee of several hundred over and above the daily rate so that a client could go out and dust a few sand grouse.
As we both agree it seems, there are also people then charging fees over and above the trophy fee for various things like permits, handling/skinning fees, delivery to shipper/packing/taxidermist fees...........followed by the dipping/packing fees at that end.
My original post was looking for an answer as to why the change and the charging of trophy fees now? I have not seen a lot of constructive answers, most just fall into the 'because' category. As for permits.....I do not think anyone objects to paying for a permit on a baboon or what have you if they decide to take one and ship it home. Permits are one thing and trophy fees are another. I am sure you will agree.
As for Tanzania.....government rates are what they are......which is why I asked what the government fees were so a jackal could be hunted in RSA. No on likes the trends with licence and trophy fees in Tanzania, least of all the operators and PH's. I suspect that if the Tanzania gov't thought someone might want to take a desert rat home they would assess a trophy fee.
I meant what I said, if I was hunting in Tanzania there is not a snowballs chance in you know what that I would ever shoot a jackal and pay a $300 trophy fee.......not a chance, and that would include various other things like porcupines.:rolleyes: But government set fees are beyond the operator/ph's control.
Now in RSA with private herds the trophy fees are set by the operator. They may be his own animals and he is going with what most are charging for a trophy fee ..................or it may be a PH who is hunting on someone elses property and he has to pay the land/game owner a set fee per head/species and then he tacks on his extra percentage up to the going rate. As you know there are a number of variables.
It is kind of an apples and oranges situation comparing trophy fees set by game owners on private property to trophy fees set for state/government owned wildlife on state/government owned land of said country. (Here to though, there are operators tacking an extra fee on top of the set government trophy fees as well.)
I found some of the answers on here by clients quite illuminating because it seems some do not have a problem with a trophy fee for a jackal being set by an operator when they are hunting on private land and jackal are not really a privately owned animal. If I told US hunters coming north on a deer hunt that I was going to charge them a trophy fee of $100-$200 if they shot a coyote and then a $35 skinning/processing fee you could probably hear the screams over in RSA. :D
Likewise when I hunted in the Eastern Cape that same year. My PH said I could shoot as many Jackals as I wanted at no charge, but it would cost me $200 for every one that I missed.
Originally Posted by ndsnowman
He was good to his word, as he did not charge me anything for the jackal that I shot, although he did strongly urge me to take running shots through the brush at several others that we saw.
Another day, another concession of that hunt, we were sitting on a ridge watching some impala and kudu in the valley below when I noticed two tan-brown animals sitting like dogs also watching the impala. When I asked my PH what they were, he got all excited and said "Those are Caracals, shoot!" At 500 +/- yds, I was not confident that I could make the shot with my .375 RUM, and the cats did not stick around for us to get closer. When we left my PH said he would have to tell the landowner that we saw the cats, and that the landowner would bring dogs out and kill the cats, as the cats would prey on the landowner's sheep.
Had I shot one of the caracals, I don't know if I would have been charged a trophy fee or not, although I would not have argued much about paying it. The landowners there considered jackals and caracals vermin and would shoot them on sight. I have no doubt that in the next day or two the landowner shot both of those cats. I agree that maybe paying a skinning fee for these animals, is justified, but if they are shot as targets of opportunity while you are hunting something else, a trophy fee is not justified. Especially since the landowners want them removed to protect their stock (in my case their stock was sheep). It's like, if you are on a guided deer hunt and you shoot a passing coyote, should you be charged for it, or thanked for shooting it?
As Bill Quimby stated earlier, your daily fees pay for the cost of the hunt, wither you shoot something or not.
A few years ago when I was on a backpack Dall sheep hunt in Canada, I also bought a wolf tag because the government required it. But before I left base camp, my outfitter said that I had one wolf tag, but that if I got into a pack of wolves to keep shooting until I was out of ammo. Wolves prey on sheep and caribou, cutting into the Canadian outfitters livelyhood, just like jackals do in Africa.
Why we charge for jackal and baboons :
1. We get many hunters that have just come to shoot jackals , caracal. baboons this is what they like shooting and its num 1 on their list.
2. Many farmers in our area keep the jackal and baboon control down so they dont pest me or the game. ( maybe too much )
3. Actually the baboons move around so much they not always easy to find so makes it a big exciting hunt.
I can leave the jackal and baboons alone and nothing will change on our farm. We do give many vermin and small game for free when clients have big packages.
Having taken most of the southern species, on a recent hunt, in addition to the "priority species", I had an equivalent list of these lesser and quite difficult to hunt animals. My outfitter warned me that while a lot of the species were opportunistic and many guys did not take the trophies they collected home, a dedicated hunt would be difficult.
In the end I hunted three days in the Hartbeesfontein area for baboon before I had success; lots of climbing and many an ambush attempt! The closest I got to a big male was 175 yards. I finally took a jackal at just over 200 yards after 4 nights of searching and calling.
This type of hunting is a lot of fun and with trophy fees from $50 it's the most value for money hunting on earth! If you have a good relationship with your guide and the owners, and this kind of rapport can be built in a matter of days, you probably won't be paying for these kinds of animals.
But on a dedicated hunt for these species, I think it's fair to have a trophy fee.
I have been told by a couple of outfitters that if these "lesser" species are marketed as a free hunt, some guys tend to do too much shooting! Trophy fees will make this sustainable for all us guys who want to bring home a jackal, porcupine, baboon, caracal, or one of the many other small game species.
We do charge US$210 for Jackal, Why???
I do not wish to cover for myself but instead give you the facts.
We have a 7200ha property and dropped our fences with our neighbbours, the total area is +/- 22000ha. Our main goal is to let nature take control as far as possible and for that reason we would not like a client to shoot a Jackal at all, but it is difficult to say no to a client and if he does like to shoot one then there is a price to pay.
Originally Posted by Spiral Horn Safaris
It is human to take advantage of "cheap and free" all over the world. Some outfitters that make use of us would think that it is nice to treat his client and let him shoot Jackal on sight, and this could cause the poplation number to drop rapidly, and then like Louis said, they start to breed like rabbits. It is important to remember that Jackal play just as an important role in the ecosystem as the other animals that the client hunts.
Second, but not least, is that every shot fired has an impact on the other animals in the area. Numerous shots on free jackal would compound this negative impact. We want to ensure that every client has the same opportunity to have the same hunting experience as the previous client, and possibly to take photographs of animals he does not wish to hunt. To do this you do not want to declare war on Jackal and Monkeys on your property by giving them away for free. Either we take Jackal off the list or put a price on them, for the hunter that wishes to shoot one,to limit the number of shots fired.
In the Karoo Leopard are a problem for farmers and are often poisoned or shot on sight, but you will never be able to hunt one for free. Is this because it is a Leopard???
Conservation, means sustainable utilisation, which is what we as hunters do. Our philosophy resulted in the owners of our property being awarded the South African Game Rancher of the Year Award in 2007, a prestigious award. We must be doing something right.