Is it taboo to hunt White Lion
This is a discussion on Is it taboo to hunt White Lion within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the Hunting Forums - Hunting in Africa category; Boet, and yet you are not aswering the obvious questions, and you where never quoted maybe I should have stated ...
08-22-2012, 05:07 AM #101
Boet, and yet you are not aswering the obvious questions, and you where never quoted maybe I should have stated that you where insinuating that guys where shooting druged cats and that outfitter where lying to their clients would that have been more accurate??
Trying to discredit or put my integrity into question is not going to help you prove your point, I can do the same you wrote a book something along the line of how to become a successfull outfitter, well Hugo Ras made it big so did out of Africa and so did a couple others who's wheels are falling of as we speak what conclusion can I draw from that.
Especially if they had read your book??
I think you should stop thinking of what I am trying to say and see what I a,m saying.
I am not pro lion hunting, but I have very good and reputable friends in this industry that do hunt lion and will not stand by why you have the utmost freedom in making statements with no regard to them, o yes!!! but Venecia mine has free raoming lion (in the sense of not being introduced on a continual basis) so does welgevonden where one was hunted one last year tens of thousands of hectares with a sustainable population of lion.
But thats besides the point, the question that you have been eluding to answer the entire time is... WHAT MAKES A KUDU BULL ON A 1500 HECTARE FARM DIFFERENT FROM A LION ON A 15 000 HECTARE FARM LIKE AP REYNECKE (JUST AN EXAMPLE) (FOR THE SAKE OF PROPERTY SIZE) THAT WHERE BOTH REINTRODUCED A WEEK OR 96 HOURS LEAGAL MINIMUM BEFORE THE CLIENT ARRIVES, OR IS IT JUST PURE EMOTION?
PLEASE ALSO FEEL FREE TO CONTACT DR. WOUTER VAN HOVEN AT THE CENTRE FOR WILDLIFE MANAGEMENT AT THE UNIVERSITY OF PRETORIA FOR ANY QUESTIONS, HIS SECRETARY LISET WILL BE MORE THAN WILLING TO PROVIDE YOU WITH ANY INFORMATION THAT YOU MIGHT REQUIRE.
YOU COULD ALSO GET INTO CONTACT WITH HANNO KILLIAN (PHD.) AND FORMER HEAD OF RESEARCH ON SPECIFICALLY LION IN WELGEVONDEN, CURRENTLY EMPLOYED BY A WEALTHY RUSSIAN THAT OWNS 100 000 HECTARES IN THE KALAHARI, ON WHICH LION HUNTS ARE ALSO CONDUCTED I BELIEVE THAT COENRAAD VERMAAK HAS PURCHASED THE ENTIRE QUOTA AS WE WHERE OUTBID.
NOW IF I MAY SAY SO MYSELF .........NEXT!
MY BEST ALWAYS.
08-22-2012, 05:24 AM #102
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I've addressed every issue that was raised & I've done it in an accurate manner, named sources where necessary & given explanatory mathematical breakdown where necessary so it's not me that's dodged questions at all.
You however do seem to be dodging questions. For example, you said that research has proved there's no difference between releasing plains game & lions but you've repeatedly avoided telling us what research, where it was conducted, when & by whom. Therefore it's not me that's bringing your integrity into question at all....... if anything, you're doing it yourself....... However, if you do have that (previously mentioned) info, I'd still be very interested to read about it?
Nor incidentally, have you answered my question about that lion on your website?
As for Hugo Ras, I think you'll find that the reason he's banged up has nothing to do with captive/canned lion shooting which (unfortunately IMO) isn't illegal. Therefore that part of your reasoning is totally irrelevant to the subject in hand...... as is your mention of my book in this case.
As for the rest, if re-read my posts, especially my first first post, I think you'll find that I pointed out that SA lions are habituated at best etc.
I can almost hear you and perhaps others grinding your teeth (or is it axes I hear) in frustration about this debate but I know I'm right and so can debate this until hell freezes over. The truth is the truth and although some might consider it an inconvenient truth, the truth is never wrong.
08-22-2012, 06:04 AM #104
Jaco, In a sense I agree with you totally. I personally don't see any difference whatsoever in any put and take shooting whether it be plains game or a lion. It is one reason I have had zero interest in shooting on one of the smaller RSA high fence operations. I might as well shoot exotics on one of the small operations in Texas - and notice I didn't use the word "hunt". Larger reserves with self-sustaining populations are another thing entirely. Even in those cases the parallels between hunting free range whitetails and shopping for a particular measurement at one of the buck factories like "the Sanctuary" are fairly obvious.
Having experienced low fence ranch country in Namibia and the conservancey system in the Caprivi, I doubt if I ever will return to the RSA. In '14 we will be in Moz. That said, I am not condeming anyone who hunts a self-sustaining high fence game farm. I am sure I will do it again sometime - but I don't particularly enjoy it. However, I have no respect for those who underwrite with their dollars "put and take" shooting. Such "sport" has nothing to do with hunting or the hunting ethic. Moreover, such practices simply provide fodder to our critics who gladly paint us with as broad a brush as possible."We sleep peaceably in our beds because rough men stand ready in the
night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" Winston Churchill
08-22-2012, 06:07 AM #105
Never mentioned....... what you believe I did,
I did however mention that I truly believe and that the centre for wildlife managements research has proven............ that there is no sustainable way to hunt lion in the WILD which I still believe....... as the phylosophy of sustainability of such (wild lions) is based upon PH's taking only cats that are 8 years and older, therein lies the whole dilhemma/problem.
Any disregard or mistakes made by Ph's would lead to amplified or hightened mortality amongst cubs due to the complexity of pride structures and breeding cycles.
Once again I would like to refer you to the centre for wildlife management, and if you can get a hold of Hanno Killian he would be extremely helpfull, I will also give Hanno a call.
I believe that if you where to take all factors into consideration with regards to Hugo Ras you will know that he was a less than respectable outfitter and my point is, and was, that using his footage as an example, of lion hunting in SA, is hillarious and to be ridiculed to say the least.
As for my integrity I will leave that call up to the gentlemen that I have hunted with, my true friends that know me, my father and the good lord, as they are the ones that know me the best, sorry I should have used a different word maybe something like..... insinuated??
Holly crap..... just saw this.......... I also never said anything about research with regards (or comparrison) between released plains game and lion... I am the one that would like to know what the difference is due to the fact that you are so convinced that it is different.
I believe it is exactly the same in pricipal.
Dart = Kudu on truck=transport=release=5days on the ground=shot by client.
In the case of lion:
Dart=Lion on truck=transport=release=5days on ground on the ground (96 hour leagal min) = shot by client.
Seems very simple to me...... Kudu can be replaced with any plains game species dart can also be replaced with capture.........
As I have also stated many times before I do not support either of the following methods as i have always been clear on this site with regards to my operational procedure and my clients can all vouch for that...... but my point is simple if you can support the above why not the lion, if you can support or see no problem with taking a kudu of the back of a vehicle why should lion hunting be isolated as unethical, and outfitters that take part in such hunts be tarred with a dirty brush???
PS. the lion was shot by a friend of mine with a client from DSC (you did not see that one coming did you!)
My best always.
You still haven't answered any of my questions...... you've skated around them but you haven't answered any. For example, you said the lion was shot by a DSC member (I don't really understand why that's pertinent) but you didn't mention if it was a wild lion or not or if it was hunted in a true wilderness area or not?..... it's certainly a good looking lion though!
We do however agree on one thing & that's that Ras is less than respectable...
As for lion age, I personally don't believe that age is an important factor & reckon the new Tanzania rule of 6 years is actually damaging the populations rather than helping them. I fail to see that a lion that's 5 years & 11 months is inappropriate & then becomes appropriate when it passes it's 6th birthday.
To me, the only important factor is whether the lion to be shot is holding a pride with dependent young or not. I also think there's possibly some merit in the other two theories I mentioned earlier in this thread.
I also think that it's more that the wrong wild lions are often shot rather than too many wild lions are being shot.
08-22-2012, 07:20 AM #107
Sorry Shak never saw the question, the cat was shot in the Kalahari a "CANNED" hunt.
Also dont agree with your opinion of of the age.... and believe that your statement of wether the lion holds a pride with cubs or not being the determining factor is a concerning and very uninformed one to say the least, I have hunted my fair share of Wild lion in wilderness areas and have very rarely seen them come in with prides, big dominant males will leave prides for extended periods of time to wander and patrol, FACT! its just the way they are.
When you encounter such a male on bait what do you use as a measuring staff......???? as to wether or not he is a takeable trophy??? Now we need to remember that all bottom jaws are aged....... for one, so unfortunatly age has allot to do with it.
But there is simply NO WAY that you can guarantee the sustainability of the cat that you are shooting or the survival of its young FACT!
How do you as a PH make a call on wether he has a pride with young or not... let's say on a 2 million acre block???? please can we move on as this is becoming a little silly.
Given the 2 alternatives I would not pick one, however it is becoming incresingly clear that the one is more sustainable than the other because of the constant supply...... all be it artificial...............
IF I was given an option as a conservationist and as a hunter to stop lion hunting in the wild due to the uncertainty of the sustainability........ and the alternative of a management program in a controlled artificial enviroment which would be artificial yes.... but remove pressure from dwindling wild populations in their entirity.......... I would pick the controlled enviroment.
Bold I know but true............., Please do not tell me that the hunting of wild populations relieves the pressure of the cats in wild areas it is true to an extent but absolute hog wash in reality in the bigger picture it increases the pressure.
I would rather see the survival of wild populations, and for those who would like a lion on the wall the alternative.
My very best as always
My best always.
I agree that wild lions often wander away from the pride & have posted that (elsewhere) many times before & that's why I said (here & elsewhere) that lion hunting should & needs to get considerably more expensive. I think each & every landowner/concession holder should be familiar with & know the pride status of every individual lion on his property. I also think that assuming there's more than one (and as I'm sure you know, there very often is) he should do his utmost to take those particular animals on a rolling basis. That is if two lions that are suitable to be shot, they are taken out as close (in time) to each other....... that familiarity obviously means someone needs to keep a close eye on the lion population of the area at all times and of course this has to be paid for and that's why I've said (& been quoted) as saying that I don't have any problem if the price of wild lion hunts goes up dramatically.
If you know the individual animals as I've suggested, you don't need to try to look at the lion to age it because you already know how old it is and much more importantly, you know it's pride status........ and if the better companies in Tanzania can do this then so can anyone else do it anywhere. The reason they don't, is cost which takes us back to my previous comment.
Your point about sustainability and captive breeding is well taken but I have to disagree. I believe that if our wild populations can be sustained if managed properly (although there are other factors such as the damn Masai that would have to be addressed) but it will mean that not everyone who wants a lion can have or even afford one...... but as I've said several times, I don't have any problem with that at all.
As far as the captive lion breeding industry in RSA (and elsewhere) is concerned, I believe it has absolutely no ethical reason to exist at all and would be very happy to see ALL captive lion breeding banned by law tomorrow. The only contribution the industry makes is dollars to the breeders and trophies that are a travesty to hunting in braggarts trophy rooms.
08-22-2012, 08:42 AM #109
And while we both agree that a system even as you have suggested will never be perfect, the sustainability question is still not addressed, no amount of $ can fix that I strongly disagree, as even on government level as you very well now corruption runs rampant.......And has been for decades so NO solution there I hate to disappoint.
Captive bred lion hunting will continue and in 5 - 10 SA will be the only African country with lion hunts, if not the whole industry (lion) will be closed.
Wether you or I approve is besides the point, it is what it is.
Age is still a very important factor as the sustainability of any species pivots around taking animal past their prime, that's the whole point the fact that I as a hunter takes a trophy any trophy, that still has good breeding potential, in it's self makes it unsustainable.
My very best always,.
I personally believe that wild lion populations (Africa wide) and the hunting thereof CAN be sustained but only if managed properly but that of course means a lot of people who want lions simply can't have them.
However, I think it'll mean that those who do hunt them will have accept price hikes...... it'll also depend on what the local populations such as the Masai etc do with regard to their lifestyle and that of course is a whole different can of worms and I have my doubts about them changing anything at all, least of all their attitude to lions.
As for Govermunt corruption: I agree it'll never change but if we police ourselves, stick to the management principles, only take appropriate wild lions and don't cave into pressure from clients to take the wrong lions then we don't need Governmunt to be involved..... it's up to us to make it work not any other bugger.
You say that: " Age is still a very important factor as the sustainability of any species pivots around taking animal past their prime" - I disagree (in this case) completely. (IMO) It's not about age at all, it's about the status of the individual animal in the pride and whether that pride has dependent young or not.
08-22-2012, 09:23 AM #111
Shak thanks for the discussion I think we will just have to disagree my friend and move on tommorow only knows what will bring.... Once again I will put you into contact with Hanno it might just give you a new perspective on wild lion hunting, or at least be an additional source of information.
My best to you and yours.
No problem..... I'm sure we'd enjoy each others company over a campfire and a bottle even if we don't agree about quite everything.
Oh and thanks for your honesty about that lion. I suspect that some of those arguing were taking the attitude they were more for commercial reasons than ethical and their websites would suggest that to be the case.
You at least had the courage to freely admit the situation.
08-22-2012, 10:06 AM #113
No problem shakari I have no reason to hide a thing, it is not something I am big in...(lions that is)
Guys that want good buff, leopard( my fav) and Ellie now that I like....
Have a great evening talk to you soon.
My best always
Gotta say buffalo & leopard are or I guess that should be were, my favourites too.
08-22-2012, 10:44 AM #115
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I've been reading this forum for a long time and this thread has kind of forced me to join. It's a debate I've had before and read about online many times. I've heard the arguments for and against canned lion hunting in RSA many times. I've read Shakaris posts on another forum before and have to agree with his two main points.
I think that the discussion is very relevant to the OP as many people are unaware of the realities of canned lion hunting and what white lions really are and what their provenance is etc. To me, RSA lion hunters are a little bit like those people who try and pass off high class hookers as their wives or girlfriends at social events. It's a fake thing with dubious morality thrown into the experience.
I'm not trying to annoy the outfitters who sell canned lion shooting or the people who have shot a canned lion, I'm just trying to be realistic. I too refuse to use the words hunt, hunter or hunting when it comes to RSA lion shooting.
I totally agree too that canned lion shooting is the biggest threat to legitimate hunting activities as the antis find it all too easy to use it as part of their propaganda. Just take a look at these videos and their comments to see how the public find the idea of canned lion hunting repugnant :-
canned lion hunt - YouTube
So I'd be very happy if it just disappeared all together never to be seen again. To those thinking about about undertaking some canned lion shooting for the first time I'd say, look at yourself in the mirror before you do it. You will always know that shooting a drugged, captive cat in a pen where it has no real chance of escape is a fake experience. Just like the hooker experience I mentioned above. Ask yourself, is that what you really want? Ask yourself, what will you have achieved by shooting a canned cat? Ask yourself, are you an idiot for getting involved?
Only you can answer those questions and be honest with yourself.
And before anyone gets upset with my points, this kind of topic really should be discussed in a bar over a lot of cold beers. Not on an internet forum.
08-22-2012, 11:16 AM #116
08-22-2012, 11:36 AM #118
Why not? As this is a hunting forum I believe it is the ideal setting........! Once again drugged cats???? Pen?????? What constitutes a pen 10 000 or 30 000 acres?
Sustainability??? The potential mortality of taking a wild lion even in a ideal situation can not be calculated it is that simple....
What is the value of a single wild lion if we say $90 000 - $130 000 would that be sufficient if 30% of males shot where active breeders to fill the void?
Let say an average mortality of 5 cubs out of 20 wild lion hunted that would give us 36 cats and 30 over given quota?
Not sustainable sorry, then I would rather close lion hunting completely!
Rough but a reality, look yourself in the mirror on that and feel good.
I understand the point you are trying to make but it is just not as simple as ethics.
My best always.
08-23-2012, 12:46 AM #119
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Without actually seeing any real evidence I'll go with the latter.I'm open minded, but am still yet to see one genuine good reason for canned cat shoots in RSA. No one, despite this argument raging all over the internet has ever put forth a good argument for it. I note with interest you have mentioned several times that you are not pro lion shooting. That speaks volumes really. The fact that you need to keep repeating this fact.
As for your comparisons of plains game being stuck in a small pen before being shot, I do see your point. But I'm not sure you understand animal rights activists particularly well. The public don't associate blesbock and springbok as threatened species. Lions are often seen as endangered whether rightly or wrongly and so Mr Joe Public will always see canned lion shooting as far more repulsive than a canned springbok shoot. So if lion shooting and hunting had to stop for a period of time, before numbers increased and sustainable hunting could be practised, so what? Who cares? A few PH's who need to find alternative work and a few 'inadequates' who won't have a trophy canned cat to brag about. Are either of those situations of any real importance? Especially if they are a genuine threat to real hunting.
08-23-2012, 01:04 AM #120
Not really a question of numbers, the big question mark lies behind the sustainability thereof (wild lion).... Is the cake worth the icing..... No it's not, that simple.
As I have said many times on this forum before, I am not a fan of the lion but can see it for what it is, (this includes the drop and shoot)
I will say it again, in 5-10 lion will either be closed completely, or SA will be the only country that one will be able to hunt lion in.
My humble opinion.
My best always.
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