Is it taboo to hunt White Lion
This is a discussion on Is it taboo to hunt White Lion within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the Hunting Forums - Hunting in Africa category; Rick, My definition of the word taboo is absolutely correct & (incidentally) checked with several dictionaries for the sake of ...
My definition of the word taboo is absolutely correct & (incidentally) checked with several dictionaries for the sake of accuracy and as far as I'm concerned, there's a bloody great taboo on such an act...... One must also question (because of his phraseology) if he was under the impression he was going on a true hunt rather than a shoot and if so, perhaps he's also liable to be taken in with such drivel as "some native African people the white lion represents a sacred messenger from god" or that he can expect to use beads & mirrors to trade with the natives.
08-15-2012, 07:30 AM #22
If you knew anything about me or had done a little research you'd have known that my experience of the African hunting industry is reasonably broad.
I'm now pretty much retired but was involved in said industry for over 32 years, a PH for over 22 years, been consulted and/or quoted by a variety of authors/books/manuals, lost count years ago on the number of articles I've written about African hunting, PHd in 6 or 7 African countries, co-written one book, written another & co-own a very large website that gives info on African hunting.
Now, how about your experience?
08-15-2012, 07:46 AM #24
Here are some interesting reading on the white lion.
White Lion conservation article. Big cat safaris. White lions of Timbavati. Travel like a local
There are myths and facts on white lions, the fact being that they are exremely rare.FHM3006
Fortes Fortuna Luvat
08-15-2012, 08:13 AM #25
I will not hijack this gentleman's thread anymore. The point is very simple. He was not asking your opinion on his hunt plans. Here we treat each other with respect. If you want to post about how superior you are or how people aren't real "hunters", then feel free to go to the other website where snarky know-it-all remarks and condescending attitudes are more welcome.Tom
I wasn't aware that you're the owner of the site and that I needed your permission to post my opinion.
Silly old me huh.
And hey. Look on the bright side..... at least he got an honest, well informed & reasonably polite opinion on what he's spending his money on.
If he'd made the same post on some of the other forums they'd have roasted the poor bugger.
08-15-2012, 09:59 AM #27
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08-16-2012, 06:55 AM #28
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08-16-2012, 04:11 PM #29
I feel I have to agree with TOM on this one,,, the original poster was questioning the "color" not "technique". Though you raise some VERY valid points, who is to say the animal will be drugged, sedated, just released. You my friend don't know where he is possibly hunting, who he is hunting with, you also don't know the size of the concession do you. There actually may be some honest Ph's/outfitter's out there. So please don't condemn ALL for the actions of SOME.
TOM, very good points as well, and I have found nothing on the net about Taboo hunting of the White's.
You guys sound like me and BART a few months back.... Relax and have an F*****g beer. Good day all."That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche // That which does not kill me, better run like hell" Scott Smith
Quite honestly I fail to understand the attitude some of you guys are taking to this.
I've got my doubts the OP wasn't just looking for a wind up because I notice he hasn't been back but if anyone doubts any white lion shoot, especially in RSA is anything approaching a fair chase hunt of a wild/natural bred lion must be absolutely and completely deluded. The idea is actually laughable!
Assuming the original question was genuine don't you think it's more important to raise the issue that he might have been conned into thinking he's spending something like US$50K on a genuine lion hunt when in fact, he's being misled into something that any genuine hunter would laugh him out of the room for and/or that he is contributing to the demise of genuine big game sport hunting in Africa than it is to give him some kind of BS drivel that might suggest he's shooting a 'sacred messenger from God'?
He asked if there were any taboos against shooting a white lion in South Africa and I told him exactly what those taboos were amongst genuine hunters........ therefore, I reckon I gave him a pretty accurate reply to his question.
If you blokes think I'm being harsh with my comments try asking the same question over on AR. I guarantee the replies you get there will make me look like diplomat of the year.
My opinion and the way I state them might have put a few noses out of joint here but I assure you, they're accurate, honest and to the point.
08-17-2012, 02:32 AM #31
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I have been a follower of this forum for a few months now and this is my first post. I have to say that I agree wholeheartedly with what Shakari has said on this subject. I believe that as a hunting community it is our job to educate and assist each other wherever possible in order to preserve the ethics and thus ultimately the future of our sport. Whether Shakari's comments were solicited or not I, for one, am glad he gave them as he may have opened the original poster's eyes to something he was not aware of and if he had not commented this gentleman may have spent a large amount of his hard-earned money on a complete farce of a lion hunt and in the process continued to put money into the hands of unethical operators.
We as hunters need to be self-regulating as this is the only way to ensure the future of our sport and refusing to condone such hunting practices (legal or not) is the least we can do.
08-17-2012, 04:30 AM #32
So, I'll go back to the original question. It is either silly or illustrates remarkable ignorance (yes Virginia, there are stupid questions). Taboo among whom? There are eleven official languages recognized in the RSA. Ethic groups include the Zulu, northern and southern Sotho, Xhosa, Ndebele, Swazi, Tswana, etc and they only make up the Bantu ethnic group! Then, of course there are decendents of the Dutch, English, Hugenots, Indians, and Chinese. And none of those - Bantu, European or Asian are indiginous. Nope we have to go to the San and Nama Bushmen to find the true original inhabitants. And how many of those 50 milion people - black, white, or mixed - or sitting around a fire, beating a drum, and wondering about the religious or superstitious significance of shooting a lion of any color? What Shakari did point to with great clarity are the opinions of two of those potential sub groups. Non-hunters who are skeptical of our sport and hunters who want to protect it and the notion of fair chase. I think Roco received a very informed answer to a very uninformed question."We sleep peaceably in our beds because rough men stand ready in the
night to visit violence on those who would do us harm" Winston Churchill
08-17-2012, 06:49 PM #33
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I feel the question is not asked in the right way by Rocco. I don't think his English is top notch to ask his question properly. I think he is asking in a religious, or a superstitious way if it is bad to shoot a white lion.(he may correct me if I am wrong). As was stated before who are we to assume this is a canned hunt. I don't think there is a person on this sight or the other one who knows every outfitter in SA. Though I do feel you are correct in your oppinion about canned hunts I don't think you know anything more than he is hunting a white lion in SA. This is why I posted my objection to your first comment about canned hunts. I don't think his question was anything about the style of hunt, but the actual hunting and killing of a white lion. Weather its bow hunters vs gun hunters, or traditional muzzle loader vs inline, or white lion vs yellow lion, we hunters must stay together. Sahkari I agree with you that true canned hunts are not hunts, but senseless killing of animals. I just don't think that was his intended topic for his question."Ignorance is curable, stupid is forever."
His first question was "is it taboo to hunt white lion?"
You should note he used the word hunt once in the title of the post and twice in the post itself.
I pointed out he didn't HUNT a white lion, he SHOT a white lion and I explained the difference and pointed out exactly and unequivocally what the taboo held by true hunters was and that such statements such as "sacred messenger from God" was nothing more than utter bunk and claptrap designed to suck some dumb arsed rifle owner into the so called romance of Africa.... I'm not suggesting the original poster of that comment dreamed that comment up just that he'd fallen for a line spun by some BS artist....... and you might have noticed I tend not to respond well to BS!
I'd say my replies have been extremely pertinent & truthful & think I can do no better than to repeat my previous post:
08-18-2012, 04:18 PM #35
My guess is, that this thread took a different avenue than what the OP intended. It would be interesting to see how the Outfitters in SA who do lion hunts would respond to your alligations of unethical and shooting vs. hunting. There are several on here, and I am quite sure that they need no introductions. I for one don't see it anymore unethical than shooting plains game in an enclosure, So long as there is room (a lot of room) for animal/animals to escape when they feel threatened. The drugged animals YES in my opinion a big NO NO. Guess I'll have to read your book to fully understand why you are so opposed to hunting lions in SA."That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche // That which does not kill me, better run like hell" Scott Smith
08-18-2012, 08:47 PM #36
While we are here, what is your take on fenced in Buffalo or any of the other five?"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" Friedrich Nietzsche // That which does not kill me, better run like hell" Scott Smith
08-18-2012, 08:50 PM #37
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I am the original poster that posted a researched answer to the original question " is it taboo to hunt white lion." My answer was I believe to some native African people the white lion represents a sacred messenger from god. This in no way reflects my beliefs. This could be considered a myth which usually have religious significance that some people consider true. My response was simply information that came from internet research. You have responded your opinion to this post with much conviction, which I might suggest you tone it down a bit. i like many on this site participate for the fun and education that it provides. Go easy buddy and enjoy the wealth of information these gentlemen provide.When I am not hunting, I am thinking about hunting....I think I'll go hunting.
This is going to be a long one so pour yourself a coffee, make yourself comfortable and then I'll begin...... and I'll try to keep it as simple as possible and won't go into such things as carrying capacities per hectare etc.
You guys need to first understand the problem with released lion and to start, let's just assume one lion rather than a pride. If you went to a group of lions the figures just increase on a more or less pro rata basis so I'll stick with just one for the sake of ease of explanation.
Let's assume our solitary lion eats an average of one mammal a day and for the sake of easy maths, that an impala costs the landowner US$100.
US$100 x 365 days in a year = US$36500 costs to the farmer to feed the lion for just one year. If the lion develops a taste for kudu or nyala etc that figure increases dramatically and there's no guarantee he'll just kill impala. He will (obviously) kill whatever is most easily available. If he kills pregnant females as he sometimes surely will, he'll effectively be killing at least two of those animals and it wouldn't be unreasonable to assume a total figure of around US$50000 per year, per lion and if kept for five years to get to the beginning of adulthood that adds up to US$250000 per lion per year. Obviously these figures aren't accurate but even at a fraction of those calculations, you can see it's not economically viable to keep even a single one of these apex predators on an area for anything like a significant length of time.
Therefore, no owner of a fenced area can afford to have a lion on his property, eating him out of house and home for any significant length of time.
With buff, rhino & elephant that problem obviously doesn't occur and the landowner can (as far as economics is concerned) afford to have them roam free (within the constraints of area/grazing etc) for as long as he needs to. During that time, these animals learn the area and know where the food/water/escapes routes etc are. In other words, they are pretty much wild. Sure, they'll get habituated to seeing vehicles and people about the place but they'll have all their faculties about them and they'll be able to use their natural instincts and knowledge of the area etc to evade the unwelcome and unnatural.
Then we come back to the lion that because the farmer/landowner can't afford to be allowed to roam for any significant period of time, is bred/raised in a pen. It might be a big or a small pen but nevertheless, it's a pen. That lion then has to be moved to an area in which it can be shot just before the shooter arrives and pretty much the only way to do that is to drug it.
Then the animal is moved to a new area and the shooter will arrive shortly thereafter. At the very best, the animal will have woken up and worked all the drugs out of it's system and at the worst, it still won't know which way is up. Some commonly used drugs will even allow the lion to sit up and look about but not to get up and get away or face those that are after it.
In either case, it surely won't have had even days, let alone weeks, months or years to learn it's local environment and escape routes etc.
Then the poor sucker of a shooter (he's not a hunter) will be led into the area, spun a load of cock & bull and he gets to shoot his lion and very often erroneously thinking he's taken a wild lion under the principles of fair chase, pose for the hero pics etc.
That to me is an absolute travesty of what real hunting should be.
Don't for a moment think it's easy to tell the difference either because there are many ways to pull the wool over the eyes of the client...... one popular trick is for someone to have a tame lion and take him for a walk in the area a day or two before the client arrives and therefore leave lion spoor all over the place. Don't think it can't or doesn't happen because it bloody well does.
Don't for a moment think these practices are restricted to RSA either. A few years ago, a very well known and respected PH arrived in a Zim (Zambezi Valley) camp with his client and another hunter was in camp and was very proud of the fact he'd just shot a lion........ later that evening the (lion) client walked round to the skinning shed to check out the progress and there was a black guy there trying to weld up a cage trailer....... they got talking and the black guy told the client, he'd delivered a doped lion the previous day, dropped it off in the bush & broken the trailer as he drove out.
Needless to say, the client wasn't a happy bunny at all.
Also don't think that lions can't be moved across African borders. Just putting aside the ones that are smuggled, CITES themselves in their unbelievable stupidity and/or corruption (I'll leave you to decide which) issue licences every year for RSA (and probably other countries) live lions to be exported to other African countries for use in so called 'travelling circuses' .......... I've been kicking around various parts of Africa for 32 years and have never heard of a travelling circus let alone seen one and even if there are such circuses one has to wonder why so many seem to die so regularly and have to be replaced so often.
Then one hears of so called lions that wander across from places such as Botswana & the Tuli Circle in Zim etc that suddenly take to killing cattle and simple maths will tell you that some at least of these animals simply can't be kosher.
Personally, I believe that all these aforementioned practices do immense damage to true African sport hunting and I'm convinced that when our sport is eventually finished, it'll be practices such as these that will have caused it.
If someone wants to hunt a wild lion as opposed to shoot a captive bred one, I suggest they look very carefully for scars on their dead animal and further to take blood samples and have them analysed for doping drugs before they be too sure of what they've taken.
I'm an old fart now and my big game hunting days are pretty much finished but I still love the wild areas and the wild animals and I feel I need to continue to do as much as I can to ensure their continuing success for the coming generations.
And that's why I'm so virulent in my opinions and the way I express them...... and I make no apologies whatsoever for that!
08-19-2012, 02:32 AM #39
when i first read roccos question i was wondering if it was prompted by a myth i have heard (being on the other side of the atlantic i may have it wrong) that the plains indians of america thought that a white bison was sacred. i think he was asking a simple question about locals beliefs, and unfortunately i think certain people have jumped on their high horses about the whole thing. the whole canned/put and take issue with lions in SA to my mind has been DONE TO DEATH. there are pros and cons as have been stated, and it is a subject that will always be controversial. i dont like bullshit either but i find the attitude of certain people posting on this thread condescending when it comes to hunting fenced reserves/ranches. i say get used to it as with the population explosion in africa it will end up how most hunting will be done, and if you dont like it thats your problem, but i will say thank you to the people who do buy hunts on fenced properties, and there by keeping them in operation. by the way steve i found your book interesting, but i also dont think people come on this site to be roasted as you stated rocco would have been on ar, and dont worry i can be the biggest bastard going if needed. i enjoy this site because it is friendly and the people enjoy helping/assisting other members with their questions/issues in a pleasant or sometimes joking way. if they need cautioning about something its done in a not too blunt manner.
Glad you enjoyed the book and hope you found it useful?
The locals/natives of these areas are more likely to be be interested in who wins big brother or the FA cup than they are in what'll happen if someone shoots an unusually coloured lion I'm afraid.
Perhaps sad but nevertheless true.
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