What animal do you think is the most overrated for the trophy fee? Or daily fees that make it expensive to hunt?
This is a discussion on What animal do you think is the most overrated for the trophy fee? Or daily fees that make it expensive to hunt? within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the Hunting Forums - Hunting in Africa category; Originally Posted by buckcurtin In Africa I would go with Roan, however I think the prices in the States to ...
11-29-2011, 08:16 PM #21
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11-29-2011, 09:31 PM #22
In addition to my previous comments;
I think we need to appreciate that certain hunts in certain regions for specific animals that may be limited in geographic dispersion or have limited numbers of operators offering them on perhaps limited quota over limited seasons will generally beyond the pricing reach of us mere mortals.
Specific examples; Marhkor hunts, Marco Polo hunts, Polar bear hunts (when they were legal) certain African forest hunts, full bag 21 day Western Tanz hunts, White Rhino in S.A etc etc.
These hunts are marketed to a specific demographic to which I certainly don't belong, nor does the average Joe.
I think some respondents may be missing the point I'm trying to make, slightly.
As in real estate, anything is only worth what the market is willing to pay.
Some operators offering hunts for a generic animal (lets say buffalo, or White-tail for example) may have earnt the "right-of-passage" with decades of faithful and loyal service offering reliable business and record achieving results, and therefore repeat business granting them the oportunity to charge higher than standard rates.
Same applies for those offering hunts for animals that may "score" more or be generally bigger than the same species from other areas.
These outfits are generally targetting a more specific and limited clietele.
You can get a wild free range Red stag hunt in N.Z for as little as $4k - $5k and realistically expect to perhaps get a stag around 200 - 250 S.C.I, OR you can visit one of the many high fenced operations, stay in a flash lodge and pay $15k or more for the Trophy fee on a 400+ stag.
We can go on and on.
We can all decide that a $20k hunt for Elk in N.M or a $30k Stone sheep hunt is too much; heck yeh, for you and me it is but for the guys that are actually booking these hunts it's chump change !
There are extreme ends of the scale to draw for almost every animals available.
Depending on the location, the operation etc.
I have some guys visit my buffalo camp with guns that are worth more than the house I live in !
And the very same question posed relates directly to any, and all of, our gear including guns, scopes,clothes etc.
I don't think there is anything such as the over-valued Trophy.
It all boils down to individuals perspectives.
What is over-valued to you and me is fully ecconomical to someone else.
And what is affordable to you and me is well out of reach of many others around the globe.
It's all relative.
Point in case: some Tanz buffalo hunting camps.
You can get buffalo hunts in Africa for $10k, give or take, or you can decide to pay up to $30k in some of the more "exclusive" camps.
Many of you will know that you don't have to spend $15k on a White-tail hunt, but you certainly can if you want to !
My personal take on this, and hunting in general, is trying to focus on the journey as oposed to the destination.
I am a man of limited means who enjoys wilderness and the experiences of raw nature.
I will forgo an oportunity for a record book head (with a high dollar value) for an oportunity to experience some real wild country and perhaps take a representative animal as a momento of the trip.
I would prefer to pay more for location and the experiences that location may provide as oposed to size of animal.
11-29-2011, 11:20 PM #23
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Don't forget Gentlemen, supply and demand.
If no one booked to hunt Roan, then the price would fall. The animals mentioned so far are all considered highly desirable ( I often have my doubts about why some like Buffalo become desirable, marketing, hype etc.) but that is the market forces at work.
There is no escaping basic costs as PaulT has so well demonstrated. Even do it yourself or 'Chasse Libre' hunts cost money. I believe their are opportunitys to organise basic hunts and public land hunts in NZ are one example. The reward in those hunts is the experience not the trophy and as we know, in 99% of cases the cheque book gets results if you can't compromise trophy quality.Time spent in Reconnaisance is never wasted.
11-30-2011, 01:55 AM #24
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11-30-2011, 05:44 AM #25
As bad as i want to shoot one nyala seems to cost alot.They are with out a doubt one of the most beautiful for sure.But after seeing them while huinting they seem not to hard to hunt.Seems like there is alot of them around but still normal cost around 2500.00.But there still on the list for next trip
11-30-2011, 07:41 AM #26
I hope everyone understands I'm not trying to pick a fight. I really like this website and all the great hunters that visit it and share their hunting experiences.
My question was to see everyones opinion on which animals are overrated for the trophy fee or total cost of the hunt?
11-30-2011, 08:32 AM #27
I'm not jealous about hunters hunting every species under the sun and moon. If you have the money and means, go for it. If I can see video of the hunt, pictures and stories...that's enough for me. There is going to be more seperation of the wage classes in the future and that is just a fact of life.
I will say this...the future of hunting is probably doomed as a whole because....instead of having a large number of people hunting...you will have fewer people hunting. Less people equals, less power. I wonder what hunting will look like in 20 years. As a whole it's changed a lot all ready. Stone sheep, 40 years ago where the cheapest of the sheep to hunt. Now they are a $30000 hunt. Will we mainly be hunting plains game in Africa? Whitetail, mule deer, elk and black bear in the US?
11-30-2011, 08:47 AM #28
Enysse and 35 bore. I don't think PaulT took the intent of your thread as an attack on the outfitting industry at all. To me he was simply stating that there are a lot of costs associated with hunting in remote areas that greatly contribute to the cost of hunting certain species and that one needs to keep that in mind when one points at a specific animal you think is overrated and too expensive to hunt. Most hunters really have a poor grasp as to the costs involved with outfitting in remote areas.
Stone sheep is one that gets mentioned a lot as expensive and indeed it is. They are certainly not overrated as a big game animal. While supply and demand certainly factors in with this trophy, as they are on tight government quota and only available in northern BC and a small chunk of the southern Yukon, the cost of outfitting is a big part as well. It is still business in the end and if you have a million or so dollars tied up in the purchase of a guiding territory, followed by the never ending cost of multiple licences and government permits, liability insurance, buying new equipment and maintaining older equipment, a big string of horses, lodges and numerous spike camps, trucks, trailers, boats, atv's, planes, wintering locations for the ponies, the huge expense of getting everything and everyone in and out of a remote area, and advertising and promotion............. well they have to make the coin where they can and they only have a window of a couple of months in a year to do it.
I think it is a good topic though. We all have our own unique view of things. For me personally a giraffe falls into the category of way too much money for the beast involved. I have no desire to kill one and so I find the trophy fees to be high, especially considering my experiences with them up to this point in my life. I have never been anywhere that I considered a giraffe to be much of a hunt from the way they have acted while I was in the field. They fall into the shooting a really big animal with a neat hide category, but not much of a hunt. There may be places where the giraffe offers more of what I consider to be hunt, but to date most of what I have seen would fall into the 'collecting' category.
On the other side of things, I know that a big bull giraffe hitting the ground is going to be a mountain of work to process for an outfitter, and prepping that huge body skin for the taxidermist would take a lot of man hours, etc.
It is all in how you look at things and what your personal hunting goals, likes and dislikes are......... each to their own.
11-30-2011, 12:28 PM #29
I think the red deer prices above a certain score are crazy too. Again people are paying for it don't see how you calculate the cost up? But at some point my wife and I want to do a mountain hunt for red deer, chamois and tahr in New Zealand. I will look for a red deer with nice crowns and that will be the red deer I take. Of course I'll check with the guide before I pull the trigger, making sure it's within my price range.
Thanks Skyline for you last post. It's a great post.
12-01-2011, 01:09 AM #30
Enysse, I did not interpret your opening post as an attack on hunt pricing.
I think that maybe my replies may have been missinterpreted, or I just didn't explain myself well enough.
This is a discussion that regularily surfaces in my hunting camp.
As does the regular discussion on the relative merits of pricing on certain brands of high end firearms.
The pros and cons are no different.
This is the point I was trying to make.
Is a Westly Richards really worth 4 to 5 times the cost of a Heym, V.C etc.
Will it shoot and kill 4 to 5 times better.
Are the materials used and quality of craftsmanship 4 to 5 times better.
Can we justify the cost ?
Is a Sable worth 3 to 4 times the Trophy fee for a Kudu bull ?
Is Sable overated/over-valued ?
Is a Red Lechwe in Sth Africa worth nearly 3 times its basic Trophy fee when taken in its' home range ?
For the operator who had to buy it in from a breeder it probably is.
There are so many influencing factors, location, supply/demand, indigenous species/introduced, etc etc that I personally believe there is no real fair way of comparing any species or hunts unless you are comparing the very same hunt/animal between two operators in the same region (e.g a Kudu hunt in the East Cape between two East Cape operators), and even then you would need to carefully observe their offerings and exclusions and take into consideration the standard of amenities they provide and level of staffing they employ.
The one thing I can be very sure of is that in this current climate outfitters who have not trimmed any "fat" off their hunt offerings, or Trophy fees, will find it tough.
It's a buyers market out there and I still beleive that prices are as low as we will see them go.
Get out there and enjoy yourselves, we're here for a good time not a long time !
I think it was Bon Jovi who said
" I'll live while I'm alive and sleep when I'm dead" !
Good health and good hunting to all.
12-01-2011, 06:09 AM #31
" I'll live while I'm alive and sleep when I'm dead" !
SPOT ON PAUL!
I think Buff's are rediculously priced as a norm - personal opinion.
I am 'saving' for my 1st buff hunt - where??? -time will determine. Checking my savings account - i am still a couple of US$ short - like in 2 more years saving...FHM3006
Fortes Fortuna Luvat
12-01-2011, 07:00 AM #32
You are so right Paul, it is definitely hard to compare animals hunted in Zambia versus South Africa. It really is not fair. You have to compare, your operation to your neighbors. Thanks for the explanation. I have always enjoyed your posts.
Your line of thinking was spot on....my line of thinking. How do you compare the cost of 10 East Cape kudu to 1 sable bull in the same country ? Or 4 huge Southern Greater Kudu to a sable? I think this is where....for me as a hunter I have to start question my hunting quests. Is it just better to hunt more affordable animals or save for the one animal you really want to hunt? Is there going to be satisfaction at the end of the day? I'm seeing a lot of people question hunt costs?
I'm not sure what the answer is ? I was just wondering if anyone else had a opinion on the subject?
12-01-2011, 07:23 AM #33
I think hunting has become more of a business then ever.Alot of guys did it because they love to hunt and they could make a living doing what they love.As time went on and trophy animals became worth more there is were the problem started.This started the more business like outfitter over the family run business.The stone sheep is the perfect example of taking it over the top.They have tripled in price and know way have cost tripled in 10 years.But fewer tags plenty of rich people so why not charge it if you can get it.Look at all this whitetail farms who charge 10,000 or more.They raise deer feeding them more giving them things to grow bigger and drop them in a 500 acre area call it hunting.Sorry 50 trophy deer running around in 500 acres fenced in is not hunting.But in the new age of hunting for alot of people it is the same as going on a free range hunt in canada for deer.Hunting has changed but not all for the good sad to say.There will always be those who think they can justify the price they charge and then it is up to the person to decide if they agree or not.
12-01-2011, 09:29 AM #34
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It comes down to a limited supply of hunt-able trophy animals and the increasing demand by sport hunters. And yes good advertising plays into this...
When you go into a bar an order a bottle of bud at the corner pub and say it costs you dollar and at the sports bar could be five dollars for the same bottle of bud. Same difference in the initial posting.
An example...(And this did happen)
A marina in California had X amounts of slips...With a waiting list a mile long...The marina started to raise the slip price based on length of boat and after a year still had a waiting list a mile long...The Second year the marina raised it slip prices again and continued raising prices until the waiting list was down to a short list... The average boat owner was basically forced out of this marina...
The same is taking place in the hunting world...here you have a limited number of trophy animals that can take up-wards of 10 years to grow...the cost is not cheap...un less it is in a park and then it is anyone guess what you will find...Same as in the states. Your best trophies are found on manages property...
As mentioned earlier with many and i do mean many individuals with wealth beyond anything i will ever see, they are willing to pay extra for the prime spots in anything they want to do.
Everything has gone up and is continuing to go up at a faster pace than most would like...Even our government keeps changing the rules on how inflation is rising...The hunting world is also seeing their cost go up and as Paul T indicates prices are at a low and will only go one way...>
The idea of going on a mixed bag with a few trophies animals is what I see as the way to go and then move your hunting from country to country to obtain the trophies you are looking at... As mentioned earlier we as hunters have to change our way of thinking and look to new hunting areas.
I see this as two ways... if you want a record book trophy or a nice average specimen...i do not hunt for the record book and if one comes by so be it...i do have a base on what I will shoot...My example is a 40 cape buffalo and then I will search to find an outfitter and PH to go with... With CB being the primary target...Other animals probably will be taken however they are not the primary goal...
What the initial post indicated to me is: I want a Porsche however I can only afford a Dodge...But I want the Porsche for the cost of a Dodge... If we look at the Outfitter section of AH you will see many PH'S listed for the countries and if each booked 10 hunters a year we are talking of pool of close to 15,000 hunters traveling to Africa each year.
This number of hunters has driven hunting cost up so that the average person like "enysse" feels pinched. We will not see 15,000 record book animals taken every year.
What is taking place is we need to find our comfort spot in what we can afford. Or save x amount of $$ each years to go on the safari we want.James Grage - New Mexico
Hold a steady Eye & Rifle...
"Very few of the so-called liberals are open-minded...they shout you down and won't let you speak if you disagree with them." John Wayne
12-01-2011, 09:54 AM #35
James the only problem and big difference between the sample of the marina is.That was a business that they had all the expense to start and run.There is alot of animals here in the states that are on public land.They do not belong to an outfitter but he charges for taking of that animal.I am fine with that but when it cost so much the avg guy can't hunt any more that is a problem in my eyes.We all belong to different groups that help wildlife.So why because someone can donate more should they get better chances.I look at africa as more business like.They have more expense with fencing buying animals and such.They take care of the animals all year as if they lose animals they lose money.How many outfitters can say they do that.They pull up when the season starts and start hunting.So far I have been able to keep hunting and even hire outfitters.We hunt in new mexico alot.Drives me nuts driving past that double h ranch.Elk foundtion owns it which is alot of avg people and some rich people.Who gets to hunt it those who can afford 15,000 plus to hunt there.
12-01-2011, 10:27 AM #36
I use to hunt before the internet and "the outdoor channel", it was a lot nicer place. People didn't know as much about things around the world or even in their own backyard for that matter. I would go out in Western USA and give a rancher $1000 and have a place to hunt for a week by myself and usually shoot a nice deer. Then the internet, hunting consultants, outfitters, and people leasing land....sprung up overnite. Costs initially doubles...then they doubled again. I find the costs no longer justified the experience. I moved to public land, which is fine...you worked harder, Oh well. Now the wolves have taken over in the mountains and to me you are foolish to hunt the back country anymore...unless you have it super scouted and lots of days to hunt. Ever since Colorado went to landowner tags it's gone pricey too. Yes you can draw tags...it takes money and time. I guess, saying the average joe is getting priced out. I find that the "quality" of my hunting experiences going down and now in the "new economy". I find that my job is going backwards, and not forwards. In essence....I didn't make the right move career wise to make more money. And yes, every state changed the non-resident fees and draw stucture...in a negative way. I think translates to a negative future for hunting...unless you are a resident of the state. I can't move because my wife shares custody with her kids....nobodies fault but mine.
I see the Marina structure going on everywhere. I guess it's a product of a free economy. I guess, I'll stop whining as some will say. And just accept things have changed "pricewise" and either save money to hunt or quit at some point. I leaning towards quiting in less than 20 years. I don't want to keep up with the "hunting economy".
12-01-2011, 01:58 PM #37
Good post Eric.
He brings up a very good point. The hunting economy is by and large based on baby boomers who are retirement age or just coming into retirement age right now. Literally. A good percentage of those hunters have money and are able to afford the hunts at the increased costs. Nobody lives forever...
What i'm saying is that we could in fact see a large constriction or reduction in hunters and prices in the next several years (10-30 years). Sure, there will always be hunters (I hope), but there might not be the numbers of hunters willing to pay the fees that there are right now. Once the baby-boomers move on to the happy hunting grounds who will step up and pay the prices they are currently paying?
Maybe in that time frame there will be another generation that has grown up hunting who is willing and able to spend significant sums for the pleasure of hunting. I just know that my friends (all in mid 30's) are not going on expensive hunts, don't hardly travel to hunt, and see some of these hunts as extremely excessive and expensive. Will their tune change in the next 10-20 years? Who knows.
Once the bubble of baby boomers is taken out of the hunting equation things might restrict considerably.Tom
12-01-2011, 05:43 PM #38
Hi Tom, it will interesting to see how hunting continues after the baby boomers have retired to a better hunting ground. I use to know a lot of hunters my age. Most are priced out. One hunts pheasants now instead of deer. The other guy stills hunt deer in Wisconsin. A lot of my friends in SCI have amazing trophy rooms...they are 10 to 20 years older. They all told me they were going to try to hunt cape buffalo, leopard, and female lion. The cape buffalo was the one animal they all wanted. I asked when are they going...they said for what a hunt costs they could live a year in retirement. They are priced out. I asked about any plains game....fact of the matter they shot all there kudus and waterbucks years ago when they were $500 - $1000. The other plains game was super cheap to them. The price to them...in today's money...was that it was too expensive. Their reasoning is between the high cost of living...wages not increasing much, increased health insurance, fuel and other costs...that hunting will take a back seat. Meaning they will go hunting but not near as often. I understand outfitters are facing increased in operation costs.
I'm wondering when the pendulum will swing? Is there going to be a point in the future where people will say lets find something better to do? Is today's hunter and outdoor media going to sustain the current pace?
I do think cancellation hunts offer an option...as long as you have the time and money.
12-02-2011, 02:53 AM #39
Enysse, yes the pendulum will swing.
Costs will continue to rise for operators, as they do for normal folk in everyday life.
Therefore only the foolhard or illegitimate operators will be able to continue to operate at close to, or only slightly above (or below for that matter), costs.
As in life, an operator has a choice of accounting for costs and paying them when they're due, or not accounting for them, offering a cheaper hunt and simply shirking responsibility for costs when they're due !!!!!
Hunts offered by this group of "outfitters" will make up the bulk of the complaints sections of forums such as on this site, and others will fill pages on litigations threads.
Operators conscious of being in a position to provide a legitimate and decent service, memorable experience and quality hunting will have to absorb costs and add margins for continued operations, i.e the basics of sustainable business.
They will deal with less volume as the service becomes affordable, or within reach, of a smaller population.
Prices will reflect the dimished market,
i.e they will go up, and heaven forbid if we see a total regression back to the days when only the "elite", uper-class, Royalty and Noteables were hunting where prices were well beyond the reach of 98% of the population.
A major withdrawal from the market by a majority of the populus, as it can effect the stock market, can have the same undesirable effects on any market.
Think about that for a moment !!
Over-all, the smaller pool of travelling safari hunters with the financial means to book safaris will cause a massive natural attrition of outfitters (hypothetically).
Just as increased demand creates new oportunities for new operators, shrinking markets will reduce numbers of exsisting outfitters.
What you don't want to be is on the cusp of outfitters succeptable to the attrition, as invariably you will be caught up in a hunt where the economics do not add up and someone will be caught short "holding the baby" !
E.G Trophies not paid for by the operator to the landowner who refuses to forward on Trophies to the client, lisences that havn't been paid for, taxidermists who hold Trophies for ransom to outfitters who won't pay their bills etc etc etc, all sound familiar.
I personally believe that in the next 5 years the Latin "Caveat Empor" (buyer beware) will never be more poignant.
"Cheap" hunts will begin to take on a new meaning.
I think it may be erroneous to believe that International Safari hunting/guided/catered hunts will, or should, become less expensive or more affordable with the passage of time.
Yes, a hick-up in volume over the next few years may create a small vaccume of accessible/affordable hunting with certain outfitters in certain countries for certain animals, and I wish you the very best of luck wading through that land mine of potential disasters/dissapointments/lost and un-paid for Trophies and potential grief stress and misery.
Don't mean to burst anyone's bubble of expectant Safari bargains and drastically reduced prices but I would much rather call a spade a spade, face the reality then "make a plan" around that.
Taking a "back-seat", "withdrawing", "holding-off for a while" are simply other terms for reduced demand, any and all of which in mass has the potential to drastically alter the facade of Safari/Internation hunting as we know it today.
SUPPORT YOUR SPORT AND KEEP THE INDUSTRY ALIVE.
P.h's like me live on well below what most "normal" folk make from "normal" jobs.
We don't charge the prices we do and make millions per year.
We barely live and do the job because we love it and we love being in the bush and hunting. We love meeeting other hunters from around the globe and we get a big kick out of seeing other hunters take a decent Trophy and get enjoyment from the experiences that we create.
(not seeking any sympathy, again just calling a spade a spade).
Beleive me when I say that it aint the money that's keeping me in the job THAT'S FOR SURE !!!
Good health and good hunting to you all,
12-02-2011, 06:10 AM #40
Hell i hate seeing trophy hunting prices and economy get the better of a fellow hunter's way of life.
Before you retire from hunting, come to Namibia and do a 7 day DIY 'biltong hunt / meat hunt' with me. We will drive to the farm ourselves - no pick- up fees at airport, sleep in a tent in the veld which we put up ourselves - not a 5 star lodge, no 'pampering fees' for a PH or servants - we do food (bbq only) and dishes ourselves, no driving all day long looking for the right animal - we walk & stalk and enjoy the wild - at our own pace. Your most expencive cost will be airfares to Windhoek. Hell - i will pick you up in Windhoek. You pay me ZERO, you just share the hunting trips cost (fuel / animal fees / cold-room facilities) Meat hunters pay far-far less than trophy hunters. I can almost guarantee you it will cost you 1/4 of the price compared to what a standard 7 day trophy locally will cost you. Only downfall is - you will have no trophy to take home - but pictures and memories. Perhaps this is the way for future budget strapped hunters who wants to hunt Africa come hell or highwater. Meat-hunt with a fellow African meat hunter. Pictures and memories - no trophies. My 5cFHM3006
Fortes Fortuna Luvat
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