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What are your Thoughts

This is a discussion on What are your Thoughts within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the HUNT AFRICA category; I've been looking at a lot of outfitters planning on doing another hunt in South Africa next year and some ...

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    Question What are your Thoughts

    I've been looking at a lot of outfitters planning on doing another hunt in South Africa next year and some of these have a MISSED SHOT fee this is were you get charged if your bullet hits a tree insted of the animal. This just happened to me on my wifes first Black Bear hunt the first bear she shot at hit a bush and was caught on film as a clean miss and in 2 days of searching not 1 drop of blood was found, price for shooting bush $300. When looking closer at the details of some of the hunting safaris that I was considering, one or two of them have the same thing. Now I understand Wounded animals will be charged in full, the meat of these animals help to cover the overhead of the farm and there is a chance that even if not a serious wound the animal could get an infection and die at a loss to the farm, but if it is a clean miss then whats up with this Missed shots will be charged at 15% of the animals price. In South Africa if your hunting something like Kudu, Eland or Nyala you could very well miss and hit brush as this is where they live at a cost of 15% over your already $350/$450 daily fee i.e. Kudu cost $2500 miss 15% = $375. Now as I said I understand the wounded thing but in South Africa most of the hunting farms are high fenced these animals are not going anywhere they may relocate to the other side of the farm but their still there to hunt so I don't understand the missed shot policy. Whats your thought on the subject?

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    Never heard of that, and I would certainly not accept it .

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    I had never heard of it ether until my wife had done her Black Bear hunt in Quebec. I did not read the fine print on the back of the hunting contract that I had my wife sign (my fault) I read everything now & ask if I don't understand. The next day after missing her bear and before going out on the hunt the oufitter we were hunting with pulled me aside to let me know and to point out that my wife had signed it. Well as stated I try to read everything now and have found several in South Africa that do this, one of which gave away a free hunting trip for two at the bottom of his price page he states wounded animals will be charged in full and Missed shots will be charged at 15% of the animals price. needles to say it costed him a client he was one of my chooses for 2012 and then I seen that heck 375.00 is another animal on the list not to Mention he costed the local taxidermist dip & pack or even taxidermy fees. and we all know Murphy's Law if it can go wrong it will. if we hunt long enough we're going to miss if anyone read my hunting report on huntershill I missed Springbucks twice I'm sure glad Greg dosn't have this Policy.

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    Hello Bob

    I presume you are talking about me .
    We always charge for wounded animals , sometimes we don't charge the full price . Maybe a 20 percent discount . We might not charge for a wounded warthog.

    One of the hunters of the free hunt missed a animal and not another word was said . In 5 years I have only charged 1 person . He shot at an eland from 50 meters and there was no blood . But he was hunting with a too small a rifle . There was no blood but I was 80 percent shure he wounded it . Missing a elands shoulder at 50 meters is enheard of . I will give you email adresses of the last 12 trips and you welcome to email one of them and just ask if they have ever been charged . Most of my hunters are return clients anyway

    I just keep it on that as to remind hunters to respect animals and not to take a shot that should of been passed. It's not the money , but my heart aches when I think a animal is wounded when the shot should not of been taken .

    Good luck on your hunting trip for 2012

    Regards
    Willem
    Willem Faul
    Koedoeberg - South Africa
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    I have heard of the this policy. Basically it's to keep people from taking careless shots on animals. Most outfitter, only charge in full if you draw blood or on film you can confirm a bullet or arrow hit on the animal. It is even happening in the USA. There are reasons this is done. I have heard and know people that have wounded multiple animals before they filled "their" tag. All sorts of stuff happens in the hunting world.

    And on a outfitted hunt in the USA, you pay a penalty fee to resume your hunt or the hunt is just over( if a animals is shot and not recovered). It is something you have to consider before you book a hunt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Koedoeberg View Post
    Hello Bob

    I presume you are talking about me .
    We always charge for wounded animals , sometimes we don't charge the full price . Maybe a 20 percent discount . We might not charge for a wounded warthog.

    One of the hunters of the free hunt missed a animal and not another word was said . In 5 years I have only charged 1 person . He shot at an eland from 50 meters and there was no blood . But he was hunting with a too small a rifle . There was no blood but I was 80 percent shure he wounded it . Missing a elands shoulder at 50 meters is enheard of . I will give you email adresses of the last 12 trips and you welcome to email one of them and just ask if they have ever been charged . Most of my hunters are return clients anyway

    I just keep it on that as to remind hunters to respect animals and not to take a shot that should of been passed. It's not the money , but my heart aches when I think a animal is wounded when the shot should not of been taken .

    Good luck on your hunting trip for 2012

    Regards
    Willem
    Hi Wllem It's not just you I've been seeing this more and more and I'm not talking about wounded animals I believe if you hit it and there was an honest Effort to re-cover the animal then pay for it you should. what I am referring to is the 15% of cost of animals that were missed all together. I don't understand that part. I'm not trying to step on anyones toe's I just don't understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enysse View Post
    I have heard of the this policy. Basically it's to keep people from taking careless shots on animals. Most outfitter, only charge in full if you draw blood or on film you can confirm a bullet or arrow hit on the animal. It is even happening in the USA. There are reasons this is done. I have heard and know people that have wounded multiple animals before they filled "their" tag. All sorts of stuff happens in the hunting world.

    And on a outfitted hunt in the USA, you pay a penalty fee to resume your hunt or the hunt is just over( if a animals is shot and not recovered). It is something you have to consider before you book a hunt.

    Hi Enysse I believe you may be right about (it's to keep people from taking careless shots on animals) But I thought that was what the PH was with you for, and yes if you shot and the PH addvised you not to then YES you need to pay the price if thats what it is then I could understand the reson for the 15 % charge. Thats what I'm trying to figure out. as I told Willem I just don't understand if its just the way they word it or what.

    with the outfitter in Quebec once he showed me the fine print he had it broke down to 300 for the first miss shot 500 for the second and 700 for the third and as he explained it to me his words(this is a money making business ).

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    Bob

    I fully agree , if it's miss . It's miss .

    But I used to get a group of hunters that liked shooting blesbuck
    They would always try head shots , local guys. Think they were 3 hunters

    They would miss like 3 to 4 blesbuck before they get that head shot.
    I didn't charge them , me and my dad agreed that we wouldn't invite them to come hunt again . Obviously a week later we found blesbuck starved and dead in the veld.

    So we actually ask clients not to persistently go for head shots.
    If the opportunity presents itself , go for the head shot.

    It's different for international hunters , you with your clients and recommend when to take a animal.

    The rules on my price list was originally set up for locals
    Willem Faul
    Koedoeberg - South Africa
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koedoeberg View Post
    Bob

    I fully agree , if it's miss . It's miss .

    But I used to get a group of hunters that liked shooting blesbuck
    They would always try head shots , local guys. Think they were 3 hunters

    They would miss like 3 to 4 blesbuck before they get that head shot.
    I didn't charge them , me and my dad agreed that we wouldn't invite them to come hunt again . Obviously a week later we found blesbuck starved and dead in the veld.

    So we actually ask clients not to persistently go for head shots.
    If the opportunity presents itself , go for the head shot.

    It's different for international hunters , you with your clients and recommend when to take a animal.

    The rules on my price list was originally set up for locals
    THANKS Willem that helps me to understand, I can't imagine international hunters wanting to shoot there trophys in the head, we don't get the meat as the locals do, so I can see you charging in those cases the little meat wasted on a double lunger isn't enough to try a head shot unless you are so close you can lay the barrel between there eyes. Bob

    P.S. Your back on my list I will send you a list of animals later to see what you can work up for me for a possible 2012 hunt.

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    Willem
    you said you charged one client once because he probably wounded an eland, even if you didnt found blood, because of too small a rifle. I am just curious on what caliber he used? And why you would allow him to use it? Sometime there is this discussion about calibers, where many only will use bigbore (375 and over). But for me it seems that in reality most people use calibers that are much smaller (243 - 270 range on smaller antilopes and 7mm - 300 on eland)?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koedoeberg View Post
    Hello Bob

    I presume you are talking about me .
    We always charge for wounded animals , sometimes we don't charge the full price . Maybe a 20 percent discount . We might not charge for a wounded warthog.

    One of the hunters of the free hunt missed a animal and not another word was said . In 5 years I have only charged 1 person . He shot at an eland from 50 meters and there was no blood . But he was hunting with a too small a rifle . There was no blood but I was 80 percent shure he wounded it . Missing a elands shoulder at 50 meters is enheard of . I will give you email adresses of the last 12 trips and you welcome to email one of them and just ask if they have ever been charged . Most of my hunters are return clients anyway

    I just keep it on that as to remind hunters to respect animals and not to take a shot that should of been passed. It's not the money , but my heart aches when I think a animal is wounded when the shot should not of been taken .

    Good luck on your hunting trip for 2012

    Regards
    Willem
    "But he was hunting with a too small a rifle"?? Who told him to take the shot? Was he on his own with no PH? If he was, then that's a risk you chose to take. If he was with a PH, and the shot was approved, then drop the "too small a rifle" complaint. If he took the shot with no approval, then charge away and don't have him back.
    Shakey Katy, TX

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    I like Willem, and will defend his policies. A lot of guys to make a living caterring to local hunters. Most outfitters have a totally different website and set of rules for international hunters. I think every outfitter has a certain caliber in mind that they consider too small for hunting. I think a 243 Win can kill most game...if you hit the right spot...and that's a big "if". Accidents happen in the "bush" unseen branches, grass...etc. We must do are part to make sure we can kill a animal. Talking to a lot of outfitters....some hunters have different views on killing animals. I have been told they have "no souls". It's just a pull of a trigger, not really caring where the bullet hits. It's a sad and disgusting world some days. Most of these guys get "black listed", but they usually have deep pockets are back in the game soon enough. Outfitters are running...mostly on a low profit business line....and can not afford sloppy hunters.

    I am not accusing anyone of missing a animal as a "sloppy hunter"....because we all miss sometime or another. It happens!!! It's happen to me more than I like to talk about.

    But if you run a outfitting business all types of hunters come through camp and you have to ensure you state in the contract, that misses are to be avoided if at all possible. And there is contract to charge for misses if they get too bad. And wounded game has a value and has to be paid for by the client. That is why everyone on here, will state hunt with enough gun, have a excellent scope, use premium bullets and practice a lot!

    I don't want to call anyone a bad hunter....but when you do hunt...there is a responsibility to put the animal down and out as fast and pain free as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by enysse View Post
    I like Willem, and will defend his policies. A lot of guys to make a living caterring to local hunters. Most outfitters have a totally different website and set of rules for international hunters. I think every outfitter has a certain caliber in mind that they consider too small for hunting. I think a 243 Win can kill most game...if you hit the right spot...and that's a big "if". Accidents happen in the "bush" unseen branches, grass...etc. We must do are part to make sure we can kill a animal. Talking to a lot of outfitters....some hunters have different views on killing animals. I have been told they have "no souls". It's just a pull of a trigger, not really caring where the bullet hits. It's a sad and disgusting world some days. Most of these guys get "black listed", but they usually have deep pockets are back in the game soon enough. Outfitters are running...mostly on a low profit business line....and can not afford sloppy hunters.

    I am not accusing anyone of missing a animal as a "sloppy hunter"....because we all miss sometime or another. It happens!!! It's happen to me more than I like to talk about.

    But if you run a outfitting business all types of hunters come through camp and you have to ensure you state in the contract, that misses are to be avoided if at all possible. And there is contract to charge for misses if they get too bad. And wounded game has a value and has to be paid for by the client. That is why everyone on here, will state hunt with enough gun, have a excellent scope, use premium bullets and practice a lot!

    I don't want to call anyone a bad hunter....but when you do hunt...there is a responsibility to put the animal down and out as fast and pain free as possible.
    I couldn't agree with you more. I think and again this is just my opinion two small of a caliber is based on a Individuals Ability to shoot with it. I myself have a fave 243 that I will take to South Africa next year to hunt Duiker and Steenbuck but no as good of a shot as I am with that gun I'm not going to try to take an Eland with it and I myself have seen Alaska Moose taken with a 223 so again "an Individuals Ability to shoot with it" if your not sure Just remember what the Commercials on late night tv says
    "Bigger does Matter"

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    And as far as Willem go's I like him to. I still remember the thread "Shingani - Scam Outfitter" when Willem was still fairly new to AH when he read the thread he thought that a fellow hunter had been scamed and offered him a free hunt to make it up to him he had no way of knowing if the guy was being honest or not. You have to have a lot of respect for a man that will take out of his own pocket to help another man as well as let other international hunters know that African outfitters are not that way. So if I haven't said it before then THANKS WILLEM.

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    On the original question.

    I noticed "the multiple shot / miss" tax was on their price list from one of the places I was going to hunt.
    It did not bother me, I don't plan to miss (I hope I don't for sure).

    I guessed it was a people management tool and was really a method to control "slob hunters". At least it provided a method to penalize the individuals that acted like slobs.
    It appeared to be more focused on local hunters though.

    Anyway, I assumed it was about noise control (several lodges in one area or photo safaris in the area/ not run the game off, etc.), and also put pressure on the hunter to only take good clean shots instead of low percentage shots.

    The "wounding" payment of a trophy fee took me back when I first saw it. After I noticed it was standard policy, I then accepted it was the method to get international hunters to shoot straighter and not take low percentage shots.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BRICKBURN View Post
    On the original question.

    I noticed "the multiple shot / miss" tax was on their price list from one of the places I was going to hunt.
    It did not bother me, I don't plan to miss (I hope I don't for sure).

    I guessed it was a people management tool and was really a method to control "slob hunters". At least it provided a method to penalize the individuals that acted like slobs.
    It appeared to be more focused on local hunters though.

    Anyway, I assumed it was about noise control (several lodges in one area or photo safaris in the area/ not run the game off, etc.), and also put pressure on the hunter to only take good clean shots instead of low percentage shots.

    The "wounding" payment of a trophy fee took me back when I first saw it. After I noticed it was standard policy, I then accepted it was the method to get international hunters to shoot straighter and not take low percentage shots.
    Just hold your aim steady and Squeeze the trigger no doubt you didn't just start shooting yesterday you can do it. thats probably why I didn't pay Attention to the small print on the back hell my wife shoots as good or better on some days then I do. I've seen her drop a whitetail more then once with my single shot 243 at a hundred yard and the deer hit the ground without batting an eye just goes to show it happens to the best of us. Good luck on your hunt.

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    I, for one, will not book a hunt with an outfitter charging a missed shot penalty. Why? Because misses happen.

    As Brickburn stated, it is to weed out the "slob hunters". I don't consider myself a slob hunter, but I did miss two shots last year in the Eastern Cape.

    The first miss was on a mountain reedbuck at 250 yards. The reedbuck was bedded near us and my PH was making reedbuck challenge calls to get his to stand. When he did he made a bee line in the other direction. Apparently, he wasn't the stud on the mountain and didn't want another butt whipping. When he stopped, broadside at 250 yards, I shot, and the bullet struck under this belly. A complete miss. The miss was my fault. I forgot to take into account the bullet drop at that distance compared to my zero.

    The second miss was on a half grown caracal. It was a snap shot, which I was on the sticks, in uneven ground, with only two of the sticks actually contacting the ground. Shooting thru a hole amongst a tree top about half way between the cat and us. This time I didn't take into account that my gun was shooting about 4 inches high at this distance and shot over this back.

    Both a product of fast shooting and not taking into account the bullets flight at a certain distance. Call it "slob hunting" or whatever you would like. However, in two trips I've taken exactly 16 shots at animals with these two being my only misses. Of these 16 shots, I've taken 11 animals, 8 one shot kills and 3 requiring a second shot, which one of these was not needed on a blue wildebeest as he dropped where he stood, but the PH said to put another in him. The furthest an animal as made it after a shot has been about 75 yards on a kudu I took at 168 yards last year.

    Misses do happen, and charging for them is assine in my opinion.
    graybird

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    Quote Originally Posted by graybird View Post
    I, for one, will not book a hunt with an outfitter charging a missed shot penalty. Why? Because misses happen.

    As Brickburn stated, it is to weed out the "slob hunters". I don't consider myself a slob hunter, but I did miss two shots last year in the Eastern Cape.

    The first miss was on a mountain reedbuck at 250 yards. The reedbuck was bedded near us and my PH was making reedbuck challenge calls to get his to stand. When he did he made a bee line in the other direction. Apparently, he wasn't the stud on the mountain and didn't want another butt whipping. When he stopped, broadside at 250 yards, I shot, and the bullet struck under this belly. A complete miss. The miss was my fault. I forgot to take into account the bullet drop at that distance compared to my zero.

    The second miss was on a half grown caracal. It was a snap shot, which I was on the sticks, in uneven ground, with only two of the sticks actually contacting the ground. Shooting thru a hole amongst a tree top about half way between the cat and us. This time I didn't take into account that my gun was shooting about 4 inches high at this distance and shot over this back.

    Both a product of fast shooting and not taking into account the bullets flight at a certain distance. Call it "slob hunting" or whatever you would like. However, in two trips I've taken exactly 16 shots at animals with these two being my only misses. Of these 16 shots, I've taken 11 animals, 8 one shot kills and 3 requiring a second shot, which one of these was not needed on a blue wildebeest as he dropped where he stood, but the PH said to put another in him. The furthest an animal as made it after a shot has been about 75 yards on a kudu I took at 168 yards last year.

    Misses do happen, and charging for them is assine in my opinion.
    sure hate to hear you missed but like you said misses happen. I've always wanted to add a Caracal to the trophy room but they were not to be found when I was there maybe next time as for my Mountain Reedbuck he may have been the stud on the mountain but he wasn't real bright standing broad side at 75 yrds like he was 10 feet tall and bullet proof.

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    The question i have is:
    Lets say you have a wounded animal that you are tracking and you miss a shot in the followup tracking process would you be billed for that miss?

    In follow up some time you will take a shot you are not at ease with however the trackers will usually get you into your comfort zone to make the final kill shot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by James.Grage View Post
    The question i have is:
    Lets say you have a wounded animal that you are tracking and you miss a shot in the followup tracking process would you be billed for that miss?

    In follow up some time you will take a shot you are not at ease with however the trackers will usually get you into your comfort zone to make the final kill shot.
    James thats a good one I didn't think of that but I wouldn't think so as you have already wounded the animal so you've bought it and can't be charged for missing your own animal it would take a Outfitter with some really BIG cundingies to try and pull that one off.

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