Hunting Lion

If you read my messages you never find an insult to anyone. I have been insulted all time. Few person, like classic safaris, reply with respect.
You can agree or not with my opinion. You say all time that each one may your own way.
I have explained that a free range lion with tecnology is a easy way today. Get a pride area with a GPS and go there. My opion were enough for a lot of insults.
With your experience Big Fivie, you have to know when the guide (track man) is walking behind the animal or not. I'm not sure about that. I saw tracking man walking behind a lion for three days and it's amaizing! I will never be able to do that.
My conclusion was: If I don't know where we are going, is possible to walk behind the guide for many days and directions, paying a lot of money with he lodge. You may be alert and contract only serious PH.
Congratulations for your experience.
I'm sorry for my english. If someone want's, we can continous with french, german, spanish or portuguese.
Best Regards

As you might know Matetsi has been closed for a couple of years and was re opened this year with all units and eca's tagging out on good males, Lion numbers are good and I don't foresee any major difficulty in securing a good male, granted, some of the hunts will spill over into "non daylight hours" but most serious guides are very accommodating when it comes to what your clients wants are, I know I am a professional myself. Reality is on a 21 day safari my suggested minimum, working early mornings and late afternoons on baits will be your best option(stalk in baits).

This is allot more affordable than Tanzania as I know the good areas are running $1800 - $2200 per day excluding, excluding, excluding! x 21 days (way over priced for what you get!) Matetsi cats have reasonably good manes and let's be honest the low hunting pressure on Lion over the last few years in this specific area is a major plus. Contact some of the legitimate guys and have a listen. Be sure to ask the right questions regarding the area and outfitter!

Most of the regulars on this website and just trying to point out that lion hunts in the free range of Africa....have a expense associated with them...because the countries are not going to sell lion hunts for a $5000 trophy fee, if they did there would be no lions left. They use the high daily fees, etc. to run camps, anti-poaching patrols, maintenance of the roads, manpower costs, vehicles costs, CITES permits, Consession fees, Government fees....the list runs on and on.

If you want a cheaper lion hunt....hunt a lioness....you'll still be in lion country and lion hunting for that matter too.

Enysse

Thanks for the welcome, I am away for 14 days but will be back I look forward to hooking up with you again. Maybe share a new experience?

Supply and demand is the major factor in the high price of a lion hunt. No one with a good concession is going to sell Lion (or any game for that matter) under priced if they can sell all quota at top $$$. Its such a splendid hunt and more people want to do it than there are Lion on Quota. In saying that, at least they are worth something and as we know, anything of value will be protected if its possible to gain further value.

Dallas Safari Club (DSC) defining the ideal huntable male lion

The position reads: The ideal huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs.

The Dallas Safari Club (DSC) today announced a formal position statement defining the ideal huntable male lion.

The position reads: The ideal huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs.

DSC is encouraging safari operators and hunters across Africa to use this definition within their own conservation ethos. For its part, DSC adopted a new club policy: No DSC member will be eligible for any DSC recognition or trophy award unless the member's lion trophy submission is a fully mature lion as determined in the sole discretion of the DSC awards committee.

"Research shows that hunting male lions at least five years of age has no negative effect on populations," said Ben Carter, DSC executive director. "We adopted a six-year rule because we recognize the difficulties in judging age, especially in field conditions, and we chose to err on the side of caution. Hunters have always led the charge for conservation. This is one more example.

DSC President Allen Moore added, "DSC and conservation authorities across Africa are concerned about the developing possibility of reduced harvest quotas on lions. If that happens, the resulting loss of revenue from lion hunters would be a significant setback for conservation, not only for lion populations, but also for other species such as buffalo and plains game."

Urging hunters to self-impose harvest restrictions is seen as a better alternative.

The DSC six-year rule is endorsed by leading authorities on lion conservation, outfitters and DSC leaders.

For several years, DSC has been funding scientific research on African lions. Understanding lion population dynamics is one of many projects supported by DSC grants to advance conservation, education and hunter advocacy worldwide.


Source: Dallas Safari Club (DSC)

Safari Industry Pledges Support for DSC Lion Policy

DALLAS (Jan. 24, 2013) - More than 70 major safari operators, hunting industry leaders and top conservationists have pledged to support Dallas Safari Club's (DSC) newly adopted definition of the ideal huntable male African lion.

The definition reads: "The ideal huntable male lion is at least six years of age and is not known to head a pride or be part of a coalition heading a pride with dependent cubs."

DSC adopted the position as a way to urge hunters to self-impose harvest restrictions.

Overharvest of young male lions could reduce lion populations overall, posing a real concern to the conservation and scientific management of this iconic species. Furthermore, such reductions in numbers would lead wildlife authorities to reduce quotas.

However, research shows that hunting older male lions has no negative effect on populations. Encouraging lion hunters to be more selective is a DSC conservation move being applauded by biologists and professional hunters across Africa.

DSC Executive Director Ben Carter said, "Hunting only non-pride and non-adolescent male lions should be the goal of every responsible hunter and organization with a vested interest in conserving lion populations. We're encouraged by the broad outpouring of support that we've received since announcing the new DSC position just one week ago."

Supporters are pledging to incorporate the DSC definition into their business and personal practices. To date, the growing list of supporters includes:

Dr. Bob Speegle
Danny McCallum Safaris, Ltd.
Ivan Carter
Desfountain & Jones, Ltd.
Jim Shockey
Craig Boddington
Jeff Rann Safaris/777 Ranch
Coenraad Vermaak Safaris
Shane Mahoney, Vice Global Chair for Sustainable Use and Livelihoods Specialist Group, IUCN
Tanzania Big Game Safaris
Tanzania Safaris and Hunting
Tandala Hunting Safaris
Steve Hornady
Safari World of Robin Hurt
HHK Safaris
Mokore Safaris
Johan Calitz Safaris
Global Adventure Outfitters
Charlton McCallum Safaris
Ethiopia Rift Valley Safaris
Chifuti Safaris-Safari Classics
Hunting Consortium
Bubye Valley Conservancy
Rungwa Game Safaris
Brooklands Hunting Safaris
Tanzania Game Trackers Safaris
Game Trackers Africa/Ondjamba Safaris
Tanzania Adventures, Inc.
Jofie Lamprecht Safaris
Michel Mantheakis Safaris, Ltd.
Hunters Namibia Safaris
John Sharp Safaris
Huntershill Safaris
Zambezi Hunters
John X Safaris
Mabula Pro Safaris
Kikuyu Lodge Game Reserve
Trophy Hunters Africa
Kuche Safaris
Tam Safaris
Kwalata Wilderness
De Klerk Safaris
YO Africa
Adam Clements-Safari Trackers, Inc.
Liam Urry Safaris
Askew and Maartens Safaris
Buffalo Trails Safaris
Hunters & Guides Africa
Madubula Safaris
Jan Martin McGuire/McGuire & Hines
Matlabas Game Hunters
Thaba Mmoyo Safaris
DWD Worldwide Adventures
Kevin Thomas Safaris
Mwatisi Safaris, Ltd.
Tshabezi Safaris
Okarumuti Game Lodge
Van Noordwyk Safaris
Omalanga Safaris Namibia
Limnetzi Safaris
Omujeve Hunting Safaris
Upmarket Safaris
Forever African Safaris
Zindele Safaris
Rovuma Hunting Safaris
Original Kansas Trophy Whitetails
Sadaka Safaris
Dindingwe Safaris
ZimAfrica Classic Safaris忙imbabwe
Nesbitt Hunting
Bvekenya Safaris
Leithen Valley Trophy Hunts
Wintershoek Johnny Viviere Safaris

DSC officials expect more pledges of support in coming days.

To further encourage selective hunting, DSC adopted a new club policy: "No DSC member will be eligible for any DSC recognition or trophy award unless the member's lion trophy submission is a fully mature lion as determined in the sole discretion of the DSC awards committee."

Carter said, "DSC's mission, in part, is to promote to the world the success of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. Responsible lion hunting, based on the latest science-based wildlife management principles, is a proven essential component of the complex policy formula that will preserve wild African lions and their habitat for future generations."

For several years, DSC has been funding scientific research on African lions. Understanding lion population dynamics is one of many projects supported by DSC grants to advance conservation, education and hunter advocacy worldwide.


Source: Dallas Safari Club (DSC)

Jerome

It is great that DSC is taking a lead on lion hunting, however it would be even greater is SCI also joined to show a united front.:rolleyes:

I am really pleased that DSC leads the way and I am also very pleased that Huntershill Safaris is in the line of outstanding people supporting them. :thumb:

Now we just need the Massai to sign up to.

The Lion Debate - How to place lions on the endangered species list

Lions (and other predators) form a vital component to many of Africa's natural ecosystems. Their function in structuring ecological systems is through their affect on prey numbers and behavior, both wild and domesticated. As such their presence in an area is deemed to be an indicator of its wild and natural integrity. Lions also play a critical role in the tourism industry, especially in protected areas that depend largely on mass tourism to survive. Protected areas (or national parks) are therefore at the core of conservation efforts to maintain these ecologically functioning populations. But the existing protected areas across Africa are not sufficient to conserve numerically viable populations of lions: it is vital that some conservation activities occur outside of the protected areas.

Some of these areas may border a protected area, or they may be some distance away. Circumstances often dictate that these areas are unsuitable for traditional tourism (access, lack of infrastructure, human populations, livestock, or physical features) and therefore cannot rely on traditional tourism as a primary source of income. To effectively conserve carnivores in this type of environment, especially lions, requires that the local communities residing in these areas perceive that there are tangible incentives and benefits. A variety of approaches are adopted to achieve this: specialist ecotourism, mitigating human lion conflicts (e.g. building "lion proof bomas for livestock", "living fences" constructed from thorny vegetation), various compensation schemes to offset livestock deaths from carnivores, law enforcement and the most controversial or all, sport hunting.

Sport hunting has come under attack by activists who claim that hunting adult lions leads to high levels of infanticide that will ultimately cause lions to disappear. Much of this research is based on observations from Serengeti in Tanzania (where there is no sport hunting) and other large protected areas, such as Hwange National Park in Zimbabwe (where lion populations rapidly recovered after a 4-year moratorium was enforced). The demise on the lion populations in these areas is attributed to "sport hunting" and the answer to resolving this issue is to ban sport hunting altogether or at least prevent lion trophies from being imported into the USA.

On the surface, the arguments advanced by the pro-ban fraternity appear to be powerful and convincing. But these arguments tend to gloss over the real issues of carnivore conservation outside of protected areas. They shy away from the facts that the real threat to lion populations is from loss of habitat, disease, conflict with communities that result in poisoning or other forms of retaliatory killings and snaring. They also tend to shy away from explaining the realities of lion biology and the fact that adult male lions will kill, injure and maim both adult males and females irrespective of whether there is sport hunting or not. And they shy away from exposing the fact that uncontrolled and indiscriminate "hunting", especially of adult females, will result in population crashes.

Sport hunting targets mature adult males, preferably over the age of 5 years. Wild populations of lions residing in areas co-habited by people and livestock have not declined as a result of sport hunting this segment of the population, especially where the hunting industry is well managed and administered, and where communities benefit from this industry. Removing this incentive by enforcing a ban on hunting lions will surely place this important carnivore on the endangered species list.

I wrote an article for the NRA about the proposed listing of lions by USFWS on the ESA some of us may find interesting:

Banning Hunting One Step at a Time - NRAHuntersrights.org, NRA

I fear we are entering a troubled time for hunters and gun owners.


Banning Hunting One Step at a Time
by Steve Scott

The fate of the African lion will be decided in Washington, D.C.

Responding to a petition by numerous anti-hunting groups, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) is considering extending endangered species designation to the African lion. Listing the lion as endangered will not ban its hunting in Africa, but it will prohibit Americans from importing lion trophies into the United States, which will virtually have the same effect. Though most U.S. sportsmen and women will never set foot in Africa, much less hunt lion, the outcome of this issue will have serious implications for the hunting community, both in Africa and here in the United States.

When one realizes groups like the Humane Society of the United States, Humane Society International, Fund for Animals, and others conspire to effectively ban hunting in foreign countries via U.S. regulatory fiat, it is not hard to see that the antis are attacking us from other angles as well. Don't believe it? Then could: (1) closing access to/hunting on large tracts of federal land; (2) using the courts to ban the hunting of wolves, bears, mountain lions, and doves, as well as hunting with dogs or on Sundays; or (3) banning lead in ammunition or serializing every bullet, affect your hunting and/or pocketbook? This move to list the lion under the Endangered Species Act (ESA) is simply a high-profile example of the factual gerrymandering liberals are now using to chip away at the rights and heritage we sportsmen hold dear, and the ESA is one way they are doing it.

Are Lions Endangered?

There is no doubt African lion numbers are significantly lower than historic levels, even lower than they were a mere thirty years ago. Though numbers vary depending on the source, the estimated population of African lions has fallen from 75,000 in 1980 to between 30,000-39,000 today, with lions occupying about 20 percent of their original range. The primary factor in the decline has been loss of habitat due to human encroachment and the inevitable human-wildlife conflict, although bushmeat snaring, inflated hunting quotas, and improper trophy harvest by tourist hunters have contributed as well to the drop in lion numbers. As hunters, we must devise better methods and controls for sustainable lion harvest which we will address shortly. But in reality, those who are predicting the imminent demise of the lion are either uninformed or lying.

Based upon the best available scientific and commercial data, the African lion is not in danger of extinction. Numerous surveys and studies have been done, and the fact is too many lion populations are secure in too large a part of lion range to consider them on the verge of extinction, as the anti-hunters would lead us to believe. Though the lion may be threatened with endangerment in the foreseeable future in a significant part of its Western and Central African range, it is definitely not threatened in its Southern and Eastern African range where the vast majority of lions are hunted. But then again anti-hunters have never let facts get in the way of an emotional fundraising plea.

"Bootstrapping" the Facts

In a blog entitled, "Should Trophy Hunting of Lions be Banned?" on Smithsonian.com, Alastair Bland wrote:

"In Kenya, the situation is dire: In 2009, wildlife officials guessed they were losing about 100 lions per year in a national population of just 2,000 and that they might be extinct within 20 years. The causes are multiple but related; loss of habitat and decline of prey species are huge factors which, in turn, mean increased lion conflicts with livestock herders預nd, often, dead lions; and as numbers drop, the gene pool is dwindling, causing inbreeding and weakened immune systems. Disease outbreaks have also had devastating impacts."

He concludes with, "... societal benefits of hunting in most of Africa are so minimal that the activity, in effect, creates little or no impetus to preserve land for the activity, maintain populations of target animals or stop poaching."

Strong words by Mr. Bland; authoritative and impassioned...the kind of statement that might motivate someone to donate $20 to a "save the lions" fund or send a strongly-worded e-mail to the USFWS. But there is one salient fact the author neglected to convey about hunting and the demise of the lion: Hunting has been banned in Kenya since 1977.

Except for that one tiny fib, Kenya might be a great example of the plight of African wildlife. In Kenya, wildlife has virtually no monetary value; certainly not in the remote areas where most hunting would occur. To the average rural Kenyan, wildlife is competition, competing for resources, sustenance, and survival. Of course poaching is rampant in Kenya. Killing wildlife fills cooking pots and saves crops and cattle of the indigenous. Kenya's wildlife policies are fatally flawed, and to claim Kenya's result occurs in the hunting countries of Africa flies in the face of the facts.

The Value of a Lion

Tourist hunting creates an economic value in wildlife that results in a myriad of benefits for both animals and man, and no species exemplifies this better than the lion.

Lion hunting is expensive. In areas that are generally not frequented by "ecotourists," daily rates for a minimum 21-day safari can exceed $2,500 per day. This is in addition to daily concession fees paid to both local wildlife departments and indigenous communities just to hunt a lion, regardless of the ultimate outcome. And if a hunter is successful, an additional trophy fee is assessed, pushing the cost of some lion hunts in excess of $100,000.

From an economic perspective, the high costs associated with the hunt makes the lion far more important to wildlife department operating budgets and community revenues than the number of lions taken each year would suggest. And because lion hunts often conclude without harvesting an animal, the ratio of lions actually taken to the amount of conservation revenue the hunts generate is significant. Minimum day requirements and high daily rates and trophy fees infuse significant economic benefits to habitat, indigenous communities, and importantly, the lion itself. Tourist hunting creates economic value, ergo, the financial incentive for Africans to preserve the lion. The benefits of sustainable-use sport hunting for lion conservation cannot be overstated. Yet hunting is a part of the problem.

Hunting Reforms Required

When properly managed, tourist hunting provides important benefits to conservation. However, some current lion hunting practices are detrimental to the species.

Lion populations are adversely affected by the excessive removal of pride males, which accelerates the rate of infanticide, an occurrence in which a new pride male kills pre-existing lion cubs to stimulate the breeding response in the females. To avoid this circumstance, a "six-year rule" is being implemented in Tanzania and Zambia (though most of Zambia is temporarily closed to hunting) to eliminate the occurrence of infanticide by limiting the harvest to males that are six years and older. By age six, most males have been deposed from the pride and are no longer breeding, thus no cubs are endangered by the older male's harvest. And while taking only older males benefits lion conservation, changes in governmental policy such as setting population-appropriate quotas based on accurate game surveys, elimination of "pre-paid" or fixed quotas which lead to overutilization, and eliminating the harvest of females will all have a positive impact on lion populations when implemented continent-wide.

Should America Dictate African Policy?

The anti-hunters' attempt to use the USFWS to circumvent sound science, the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species treaty (CITIES), and the sovereignty of foreign governments is reprehensible, but not surprising. Listing the lion as an endangered species will, like the cheetah, begin the long downward spiral of another big cat towards the abyss of extinction. Without the significant revenues infused by tourist hunters into wildlife departments, research, and on-the-ground conservation, the lion will be reduced to token populations in national parks, and as display animals in zoos and circuses. The lion in the wild will be gone. Relegated to nuisance status, the king of the beasts will be exterminated by poachers and subsistence cattlemen eking out a living in the hard African bush-all because of an administrative ruling in Washington, D.C.

Hunters are the most important source of revenue for conservation worldwide. Considering the lack of funds available to manage and protect African wilderness, it is beyond my level of comprehension to understand why anti-hunters would so willingly dismiss the critical infusion of dollars provided by hunters for conservation. At first glance, it would appear both hunters and anti-hunters have the same goal: to save the African lion. But upon further examination, the difference becomes clear: Hunters strive to conserve the lion and are willing to pay for its preservation; the goal of the anti-hunters is to stop hunting, consequences to the lion be damned.

Why Lions Matter to You

As stated before, most of us will never hunt lions. Neither will all of us hunt doves in Iowa, or bears in New Jersey or Nevada, or coyotes in New Mexico. And though we may never pursue these species in their various locations, they represent areas in which the radical, litigious, anti-hunting lobby is currently attacking our privilege to hunt. Under the guise of "protecting" animals, these extremists' primary agenda is to regulate hunting and hunters into oblivion. Most groups are smart, well-funded, and patient, quite willing to win a small victory here and there until, eventually, the sport of hunting dies a death of 1,000 cuts.

We are in a fight to maintain the rights and heritage our ancestors viewed as self-evident, and divide and conquer is the enemy's strategy. Be it lion and elephant or deer and turkey, hunters must stand united against our foe. In this fight to preserve our sporting heritage, an attack on one is an attack upon us all.

Steve Scott is the host of America's first all-African television series, Safari Hunter's Journal, which airs on Sportsman Channel.

Thanks Steve good read, I have to admit that I as you fear the worst, I find it extremely interesting that even with the Rhino debate as well as multiple other anti hunting pro conservation lobby's that Kenya is being used as an example of conservation successes by anti's.

Yet Kenya has virtually no wildlife remaining outside of national parks....

It is becoming and has been a battle that should be fought tirelessly, if we are to take this lightly we will lose....

"Curing environmental ills requires not a stance outside nature, but a stance within nature, a role not as onlooker without, but as an actor within."

I had to post this quote just for you steeeeevvvvve!!! :):) :) :)

My best always

Saving Lions by Killing Them
by Alexander N. Songorwa

http://www.africahunting.com/hunting...e=27643&size=1

ODD as it may sound, American trophy hunters play a critical role in protecting wildlife in Tanzania. The millions of dollars that hunters spend to go on safari here each year help finance the game reserves, wildlife management areas and conservation efforts in our rapidly growing country.

This is why we are alarmed that the United States Fish and Wildlife Service is considering listing the African lion as endangered. Doing so would make it illegal for American hunters to bring their trophies home. Those hunters constitute 60 percent of our trophy-hunting market, and losing them would be disastrous to our conservation efforts.

In 2011, five animal-rights and conservation groups petitioned the Fish and Wildlife Service to list the African lion as endangered, arguing that the population had fallen dangerously low because of habitat loss, poaching, commercial hunting and new diseases associated with human encroachment. "The U.S.," their petition said, "is by far the largest importer of hunting trophies from Tanzania."

While that is true, the lion population in Tanzania is not endangered. We have an estimated 16,800 lions, perhaps 40 percent of all lions on the continent, the biggest population in the world. Their numbers are stable here, and while our hunting system is not perfect, we have taken aggressive efforts to protect our lions.

Tanzania has regulated hunting for decades; female and younger lions are completely protected, and the hunting of males is limited by quotas set for each hunting area in the country. We recently made it illegal to hunt male lions younger than 6 years old to ensure that reproductively active animals remained with their prides. And proposed amendments to our wildlife law would further crack down on the export of lions taken illegally, penalize hunting companies that violated our rules and reward those that complied.

Africa, of course, is endowed with a tremendous wealth of wildlife, and Tanzania has been particularly blessed. We have roughly 130,000 elephants, two of Africa's three largest populations of wild dogs, and spectacular landscapes like the Serengeti, Ngorongoro Crater and Mount Kilimanjaro. We have placed nearly a third of our land in national parks, game reserves and wildlife management areas.

Of all the species found here, lions are particularly important because they draw visitors from throughout the world visitors who support our tourism industry and economy. Many of these visitors only take pictures. But others pay thousands of dollars to pursue lions with rifles and take home trophies from what is often a once-in-a-lifetime hunt. Those hunters spend 10 to 25 times more than regular tourists and travel to (and spend money in) remote areas rarely visited by photographic tourists.

In Tanzania, lions are hunted under a 21-day safari package. Hunters pay $9,800 in government fees for the opportunity. An average of about 200 lions are shot a year, generating about $1,960,000 in revenue. Money is also spent on camp fees, wages, local goods and transportation. And hunters almost always come to hunt more than one species, though the lion is often the most coveted trophy sought. All told, trophy hunting generated roughly $75 million for Tanzania's economy from 2008 to 2011.

The money helps support 26 game reserves and a growing number of wildlife management areas owned and operated by local communities as well as the building of roads, schools, hospitals and other infrastructure all of which are important as Tanzania continues to develop as a peaceful and thriving democracy.

If lions are listed by the United States as an endangered species, American hunters may choose to hunt other prized species outside of Africa or simply not hunt at all. This would add further strain to our already limited budgets, undo the progress we've made, and undermine our ability to conserve not only our lions but all of our wildlife.

As Tanzania's highest-ranking wildlife official, I ask on behalf of my country and all of our wildlife: do not list the African lion as endangered. Instead, help us make the most from the revenues we generate. Help us make trophy hunting more sustainable and more valuable. In short, please work with us to conserve wildlife, rather than against us, which only diminishes our capacity to protect Tanzania's global treasures.

Alexander N. Songorwa is director of wildlife for the Tanzanian Ministry of Natural Resources and Tourism.


Source: The New York Times