HUNTER vs COLLECTOR?
This is a discussion on HUNTER vs COLLECTOR? within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the Hunting Forums - Hunting in Africa category; I enjoy these forums as the topics often create a HEALTHY debate on the subjects in question. No "arrogance" or ...
I enjoy these forums as the topics often create a HEALTHY debate on the subjects in question. No "arrogance" or "condemnation" was intended. I was only expressing an opinion. Ray often makes assumptions in his posts that have little relevance to the content of the original post, but he has the right to his opinions as we all do.
I did not say "all collectors", I said "there is an ever growing number of Collectors out there who are chasing inches". A 3 year old soft bossed buffalo bull is certainly not a good representative of the species and I certainly would not suggest or allow a hunter to shoot one.
In terms of Rays reference to conservation; I have worked in the formal conservation field for 20 years and am also qualified in that line of work. Conservation and ethical hunting are the corner stone of my hunting values, as you can't really do one without the other.
Here's to continued good healthy debates!
09-06-2009, 10:22 AM #22
I reread your post, it seemed clear to me that you put all your clients in two catagories, I don't see that as an "asumption", but perhaps It was not ment in as stated, I will give you that.. if I'm wrong then I apoligize for that.
As a Ph I am sure you know that you must handle all clients with the same respect if you take their money. Catagorizing the people that hunt with you was my only concern and of course that is your perogitive. I just wanted to point out that because folks enjoy competition in hunting is not criminal and if they enjoy that part of it, then I see nothing wrong with it.
I don't challange or disagree with your conservation views, that was not the issue with me and I am sure that we are on the same boat there...Furtheremore, I am sure you are a good PH and have a deep respect for the game and the sport of hunting, and for that I applaud you. Perhaps your post was misleading in these respects and that is not your actual mind set.
Like you suggested, I am only putting forth healthy debate..RAY ATKINSON
10-07-2009, 10:27 AM #23
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Sometimes people get consumed with the competition of who has the biggest so be it , most eventually get back to the joy of nature and the challenges of hunting . As a PH it would be best not to label the over eager competitor as a collector or label anyone at all, we all have different interpretations of hunting and should not be judgemental of these differences. A person should not be looked down upon by the wild and wooly dangerous game hunter if he shot a kudu in a high fence. If he feels this was his view of the "experience" then so be it, it is personal to each of us . As a long time African hunter/collector I take great pride in collecting . Theodore Roosevelt was a collector and hunter and today many who would never have the opportunity to view African Game can see his trophies in New York and Chicago. As a collector I have gathered many hundreds of hunted animals , birds, insects and snakes from all over the world and gathered them into a display that many appreciate every day , I can look at them and picture myself in Africa all over again , children can view them and experience the questions that will take them to Africa some day . Museums no longer have many of the animals we have seen , collectors are important. Lets not label each other
10-14-2009, 10:55 PM #24
- Member of SCI, OHA
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Big 5 makes some good points especially in saying there is plenty of blame to go around. I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with wanting to know the score of a particular animal but if the score is so important that it alters someones perception of the taken animal then that in my opinion is prettty sad. Example being you see someone take an animal and they are all excited and the world is great. Then they put a tape to it and it doesn't score what they thought and all of a sudden it's the worst day of there life. I just don't get that type of attitude and never will. I think outfitters have jumped on this bandwagon to a certain extent in that alot of them have a sliding scale depending on how much it measures. I understand it but I don't like it. Here I am in the blind and a 58" Kudu walks in. On the one hand should the outfitter be compensated for having quality animals on his property. Sure, but on the other hand what about just getting lucky and having a nice animal come in and not being penalized for it. Again I'm not saying an outfitter that cares about good trophy quality and goes to lengths to monitor this doesn't deserve to be compensated for it but I would rather they say, "Hey we specialize in trophy quality gemsbok and the chance of taking one over 40" on our property is pretty good so for that reason are fee on gemsbok might be higher then other places but if your fortunate and take a monster you don't have to worry about getting dinged for another $500. I guess overall one of the things that make hunting exciting to me is the fact that just maybe you will get the opportunity to take a truly huge animal one day and to put a price on it based purely on inches seems to cheapen the experience.
I totaly agree with you about the outfitters. Unfotunally there are more of the so called Tape mesure hunters out there than what we think and they cause that outfitters use these scale systems on animals. What we must not forget is that an outfitter has a bussines to run and by running around for 5 days after a client demands a monster Kudu nothing less than 58 inches before he /she will shoot enything else, then it will be stupid to charge the same amount of money for a Kudu that is 50 inches. Make no mistake this is not the only reason why outfitters do make use of scale systems but i think this is one of the main reasons. The other reason could be for managemant purposes to ensure that good genes will always be running around, but if it is about money the outfitter is missing the point and contributes to canned hunting by buying big animals at auctions and line up collectors to come and shoot these animals for mad prices.
10-15-2009, 04:55 AM #26
- Member of SCI Northeast Wisconsin Chapter, NRA, Local Sportsmen's Club
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I re-read all of the posts on this thread recently and came to the conclusion that the give-and-take contributions have done a nice job of outlining the differences between "hunters" and "collectors".
An excellent point was made by enysse in his post: It's very important that the client and the PH are on the same page (with regard to the client's expectations about the animal to be taken and how a hunt should be conducted).
I was lucky on my first (and so far only) safari. The PH and I were definitely of like opinion about what a hunt should be. As a result, it was a fantastic experience.
I fall into the "hunter" category as defined here. I am there to experience the fun of hunting. I'm happy when I take an animal suitable to hang on the wall, but have never put a tape measure to any horns.
This poses a question tho' - How do I insure that my next hunt is with a PH who is going to provide the kind of hunting experience that I want? What kind of questions should I ask to be sure? Will reference checks help me find out?
10-15-2009, 09:42 AM #27
- Member of SCI, Rowland Ward, NRA
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My most memorable African trophy is a Vaal Rhebok stalked in the mountains for three days in mixed rain and sleet, claimed by a bifficult shot. He is mature, typical, good for the area, and misses SCI by a fraction of an inch. I call myself a hunter, BUT I RELY ON THE TAPE MEASURE to achieve conservation objectives.
Start from the client's perspective, not the PH perspective. The glossy literature and web sight promise a good hunt, and something new to experience. A year later I have arrived in Elbonia to hunt the elusive "check bok" (or is it the PH that hunts the check book?). I recall the one in 50 times when I shot the wrong animal, my hunting partner shot the wrong animal, or the PH selected the wrong animal (female blesbok, gemsbuck with soft bases, bullet deflected by branch not seen by PH in client's shooting lane).
I also remember the huge harnessed bushbuck I should have shot that was not seen by PH or trackers.
Remember that at least half the time, the client has never seen the animal before the day he hunts it first. The PH is good (usually), but deserves the backup of a client that is not clueless (redundant logic, in high reliability engineering design). I will judge the animal myself to be sure I am looking at the same animal as the PH, and to be sure it meets one of two objectives: 1. no immature animals, 2. bigger than the one I already have (sorry check book hunters, but the walls are getting crowded and the money is limited).
1. DON'T SHOOT: It is below SCI minimum and below what is good for the area, hence immature and BAD CONSERVATION. Exceptions like warthog and impala seldom make SCI, so a 21 inch Impala or a 12 inch Warthog are often shooters.
2. MAYBE: It is somewhere between SCI and Rowland Ward minimum. If the PH says we are not likely to get better, and I don't already have one, I shoot. Otherwise the checkbook is in the pocket and the camera comes out of the pocket.
3. SHOOT: If it is estimated to be Rowland Ward, my response is KABOOM. "Top 10" is not a game I care to play, unless I get lucky (that happened once to me). It is silly to wait for better when Rowland Ward stuff comes along: I can use rifle then camera, or camera then rifle: either way I meet the criteria of enjoying my time in the bush.
My first PH dismissed immature animals as "young boy". I have made it my business since to judge horn length, mass, worn tips, solid boss, etc. with binoculars. How do I get better? 1. Make my own size/age guess, 2. listen to PH size/age guess, 3. shoot/track, 4. MEASURE WITH TAPE, 5. Compare guesses with tape and LEARN FROM EXPERIENCE. I LOVE the glassing / guessing game: it has kept me happily entertained for 160 days in the African bush.
Whatever hits the ground is MY TROPHY and MY MEMORY. The tape measure will never detract from what is mine. Use the tape as a tool to shoot mature or old animals, and to avoid blowing the budget with too many of the same trophies (after 6 southern impala, my next southern impala will be taken by camera only).
There may be three types of EVIL collectors:
1. "Hunter" who shoots baby animals
2. "Collector" who rates his experience by tape measure
3. PH or landowner who tells the client what he wants to hear, so PH or landowner can collect a page from a check-bok (book)
Hence, there are evil hunters, evil collectors, evil PHs, and enough evil to "tar and feather" myself for my opinions.
10-15-2009, 10:49 AM #28
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BuckMountainVT, I strongly agree that hunters bear a certain amount of responsibility to educate themselves about the animals that they will be hunting. This has never been easier than it is today with the internet, with loads of trophy pictures and videos to look at just a your fingertips.
I really liked your post because it came from an experienced perspective of what is good or not so good out there, however I have one issue, which is not about you, but about the SCI scoring system.
What I would like to say is that I don't think that the SCI minimum is a good gauge when it comes to conservation in my honest opinion because any old bull past their breeding age should be considered as a trophy no matter what the tape measure reads, and many animals that fit into this category will never meet SCI minimums. That is sad because the SCI is almost promoting shooting younger bulls in their prime over older bulls which are clearly a better choice for conservation.
10-15-2009, 11:33 AM #29
- Member of Northeast Wisconsin SCI chapter, Lifetime member of NRA,RMEF
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SCI may have the cape buffalo measuring wrong for conservation purposes but for highest score it doesn't. Cape Buffalo should be the exception to tape rule. I don't know too many people that care about score in cape buffalo. Most people want a old dugga boy with huge bases and if he has with great width then definitely take him...if he is worn down, well maybe you didn't luck into the dream buffalo...that is hunting. He is still a mature animal, at the end of the road of life.
A friend of mine that was nervous about going to Africa just returned and told me had found his future hunting grounds. He got 4 great animals and can't wait to return. The one thing that I took away from the conversation was the outfitter and his party were on the same page. They wanted to only take mature animals, loved the glassing and wildlife viewing, and were never pressured to shoot or book another hunt while he and his girlfriend were there.
If I was a first time hunter to Africa, I would go there. I have nothing but stellar reports of this outfitter. The PH was Andre Stewart with Kuvhima Safaris. Another outfitter I like in South Africa is SS Pro Safaris with PH Scott Van Zyl. The reason I report this because of a lot of the comments I read in BuckmountainVT post mirror my experiences in Africa. I want relax on a vacation and not have to judge animals for myself and fight off a salesman attitude of outfitter to further his business.
I look forward to more posts from BuckMountainVT. You can tell he has hunted around the block a few times.
Yes references will put you in the right direction. Outfitters that have references on there website is serious about hunting. I do not know a hunter that had, had a bad experience on a hunt and would not talk about it. The more referances you can contact the better.
Good luck in the hunting fields.
10-16-2009, 03:47 AM #31
Greetings AH members
What an iteresting / controversial thread, and more-so, the differences in opinions and interpretations between what our personal views are iro "hunter vs collector" I have read all posts so far with iterest, and one fact is clear - We all have either similar or different opinions on this specific subject - period!
It is in human nature to explain our personal believes to one another and it is only natural where there is a difference of opinion amongst parties, for one party to try and convince the other party that his believes / opinions are correct - it is human nature. This 'battle between opinions' is not secluded to 'hunting / collecting' but everywhere and with every debatable subject on the planet.
Who is right and who is wong? In my opinion, we are all right. Why?
Because we express our opinions through what each one of us personally believe. Whether our believes are founded through personal experience or through personal conviction is immaterial, what is relevant is that each one of us have the ability, intelligence and the right to our personal opinions.
I hunt for meat every year (since i can remember) and i prefer hunts where i get up dark and be in the veld when dawn breaks - that is my choice. I hunt by means of walk and stalk - that is my choice. If i have the choice to decide between harvesting a 80 Kg Oryx or a 115 Kg Oryx, i will go for the larger one simply because it is more meat - again, that is my choice as i pay good money for it, and subsequenlly does my money buy me the right to choose and that makes me happy - period.
I believe it is the same for the so-called 'collector' (trophy hunter) It is his personal choice if he wants to 'collect' a trophy that qualifies either for SCI or RW or not. It is his personal choice if he wants to shoot from a vehicle or not, if he prefers to get up at 04:00 am in the morning or 08:00 am, if wants to 'live and experience' nature surrounding him, or whether he wants to drive straight to the buffalo, shoot the biggest one in the herd, drive back to camp and relax and the next day move on in a similar fashion to his next trophy - he pays to be able to choose and he chooses what he wants - if he gets that - he is happy -period.
We are all different and believe and want different things. I believe when we are out there, doing what we love / what we paid to be able to do / what and how we choose to do it - it is a matter of personal choice and it will hopefully always be like this.
Have a great hunters / collectors weekend, but most of all, excercise your right to choose and be happy (hopefully) with your choice.
10-16-2009, 04:11 AM #32
nothing wrong with being a collector and compliments on having the drive for it. May i ask if it is the same Mr. Lochow that honored us with a visit to the Kilombero Valley in order to collect a Puku? I hope my messages were conveyed to you through the fine people at TAWICO. Please send me a personal message if you get the time or just write to my email.
Best regards,Ryan Shallom (CEO)
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