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Which species for 1st dangerous game hunt?

This is a discussion on Which species for 1st dangerous game hunt? within the Hunting Africa forums, part of the HUNT AFRICA category; I think a little different I would look at it if there was only one I could hunt out of ...

  1. #21
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    I think a little different I would look at it if there was only one I could hunt out of all them which one would that be and then decide where you want to hunt it. Be it a fenced game farm or remote wild concession. The experience to me is more important than the animal. Things in Africa change daily almost. County's open and close hunting pressure from the anti hunting community changes from animal to animal over time. That being said if lion is your number one priority then go for it and you can always and a buffalo in the same trip if you pick the right area.
    The bills can wait there is hunting to be done

  2. #22
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    +1

    We usually work on a 5% charge rate on dangerous game. Truth be told that out of our last Lions hunted in South Africa( Captive Bred) last year into this year, charge rate was at 33%. Some charged without a shot being fired.
    Nobody get forced to hunt a lion in any situation. As long as the outfit is upfront on whether it is a captive bred lion or free roam.
    The South African lion hunting market is however irreplaceable when it comes to the conservation of this species through hunting. South African Lion hunting goes, wild lions go.
    Simple as that.
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  3. #23
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    Uintaelkhunter,
    That is a good way to look at it.

    As for fenced vs. unfenced - before I went to Africa, I had only done two high fence hunts. One was for American Bison and, interestingly, at the time it was the only place in North America that B&C would accept bison entries from. It gave me a different perspective on hunting inside of a high fence. Because of that, I don't have a problem with it if it is a quality, ethical operation.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by KMG Hunting Safaris View Post
    We usually work on a 5% charge rate on dangerous game. Truth be told that out of our last Lions hunted in South Africa( Captive Bred) last year into this year, charge rate was at 33%. Some charged without a shot being fired. Simple as that.
    That definitely certainly puts things in perspective. Were there any injuries - other than to the lions that charged?

  5. #25
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    How does it work if an animal charges and is killed by the PH and/or tracker? Is that the end of the hunt?

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtgoat View Post
    How does it work if an animal charges and is killed by the PH and/or tracker? Is that the end of the hunt?
    Well that is WHOLE TOPIC UNTIL ITSELF, but make sure you and outfitter have something down in writing before the hunt begins.

    My two cents, if you were not in position to shoot, it's not my animal but there will be others that disagree. And it brings up the topic what if the client freezes or turns and runs....in that case, I think it's yours (whether you shot or not). More than a few people will talk big, but when the moment comes they are not prepared. And this carries onto following wounded game and not being prepared to put a animal down. To me it's part of the hunt and if you can't do it stay home.....take up golf or something less adventurous.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by enysse View Post
    Well that is WHOLE TOPIC UNTIL ITSELF, To me it's part of the hunt and if you can't do it stay home.....take up golf or something less adventurous.
    +1 - but that's easy for me to say, never having had to go after a wounded, dangerous animal.

    I don't know the statistics, but driving to work or the grocery store probably has a much higher risk of injury than hunting dangerous game. We're just used to the risks of driving a car.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtgoat View Post
    +1 - but that's easy for me to say, never having had to go after a wounded, dangerous animal.

    I don't know the statistics, but driving to work or the grocery store probably has a much higher risk of injury than hunting dangerous game. We're just used to the risks of driving a car.
    Driving anywhere is dangerous....a lot of hunting comes down to being mentally prepared.

  9. #29
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    That is something for sure to talk with the ph before the hunt evens starts.I for one will make sure I talk with my ph about follow up shoots if I get the chance in the future to hunt lion.If a life is in danger no need to talk about that.But just to have them shot for back up dont know I agree with that.But if you hunt a pen raised lion dont worry about it you just tell it to stop or give it a treat and then take it from there.

  10. #30
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    A PH will be shooting at any inbound dangerous game animal. He has the legal and ethical responsibility for the lives and safety of everyone in the party, and that will not be negotiable ahead of time. With respect to back up shots, it will depend upon the terrain and his assessment of his hunter. Unless an elephant is falling to a brain shot, virtually all PH's will try to follow-up even if he has Boddington as a client. I suspect most are much more likely to allow a buffalo engagement to play itself out if the bull appears well hit.
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  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg View Post
    With respect to back up shots, it will depend upon the terrain and his assessment of his hunter.
    When dangerous game is involved, I prefer to have a PH ready for the back up shot. I'm willing sacrifice some bragging rights around the campfire in order to ensure that no one is needlessly put in danger.

    I once watched a situation almost go horribly wrong. I watched from a boat a few yards offshore as the hunter and guide stalked a large coastal black bear. The hunter took a shot. He almost missed the bear and at the same he almost made a great shot. Unfortunately, he did neither. Instead the bullet removed a 3" wide strip of hide across the chest. The hunter raised his head and watched as the bear ran for cover. Next unfortunate piece - the guide and the hunter had not discussed a backup shot. Therefore, the guide also watched as the bear ran for cover. Neither of them knew how poorly the bear had been hit.

    The guide wisely told the hunter to stay put while he went after the bear - good idea. This took place along the coast of British Columbia where the terrain is steep and wet with very dense cover. The guide only had to go a few yards for the bear to find him (it had been waiting in a clump of brush). At approximately, 15 yards, the bear charged. The guide's first shot missed. The second shot knocked the bear down. A third shot was for insurance. When it was all over the guide was badly shaken but unhurt.

    The only dangerous game that I have hunted have been bears (coastal black and grizzly). In each case, I made sure that my guide understand that if I hit a bear and it didn't drop with the first shot, that I wanted him to back me up. My thinking is that I would rather have their help at a safe distance than to have that same help in thick cover when the bear could be on top of us before we even saw it. But that's just me - to each his own. Just be sure that you have a clear understanding with your PH before you start the hunt.

  12. #32
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    I would have to go with the Lion. I think here in the states you cannot import a spotted cat of any kind. I'd get that lion while I could. If it were me I'd try for a Buff on the same trip. But I look at everything from a cost standpoint.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.Sharpe View Post
    I would have to go with the Lion. I think here in the states you cannot import a spotted cat of any kind. I'd get that lion while I could. If it were me I'd try for a Buff on the same trip. But I look at everything from a cost standpoint.
    You can't import cheetah, but you can import leopard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg View Post
    I disagree and will continue to do so, because shooting pen-raised lions is a reprehensible practice which does not reflect well at all on "hunting" or "hunters." In other words it doesn't reflect well upon me personally. And by condoning this practice, I am convinced we become enablers to those who will eventually turn all of Africa into Botswana. "Getting along" and not being judgemental of what is to my mind an obviously unethical practice (notice I said nothing about legality, danger, or cost) makes me little more than an abetter of that behavior. So feel free to put me on your ignore list, but I won't shut up about it.
    I'll spare my views on shooting pen-raised anything. However, I do not understand the statement "turn all of Africa into Botswana". I am new to hunting Africa (only 1 hunt under my belt) and I sincerely do not know what you are talking about when you say "turn all of Africa into Botswana".

    Can you explain just that?
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by PHOENIX PHIL View Post
    You can't import cheetah, but you can import leopard.
    Thank-you ,I thought it was all spotted cat's. Leopard is back on my list.
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  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg View Post
    ... because shooting pen-raised lions
    I am asking this question from total ignorance. Are "captive bred" lions the same as "pen raised"? I don't know about the "raised" part, but I've been told that before being hunted that the lions are in the wild for at least two years (at least with the operator I've talked with). How "captive" are the captive bred animals?

    And, a rhetorical question... Is shooting a captive bred lion any different than going to a shooting preserve for pheasants that were pen raised and then released 3 or 4 months ago? OK, forget the part about the lions being able to act like a Cuisinart on anything or anyone they don't like and costing about 1000 times as much as a pheasant

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSteve57 View Post
    I'll spare my views on shooting pen-raised anything. However, I do not understand the statement "turn all of Africa into Botswana". I am new to hunting Africa (only 1 hunt under my belt) and I sincerely do not know what you are talking about when you say "turn all of Africa into Botswana".

    Can you explain just that?
    Sure. Botswana has just ended virtually all hunting in order to cater to eco-tourism. That crowd is largely led by a vocal, and well funded anti-hunting (particularly trophy hunting) minority. The majority of people, including tourists to the African continent, largely have no strong predisposition with respect to hunting - pro or against. Many are quite open to arguments citing the value of conservation through hunting. I strongly believe that activities like shooting pen-raised lions (i.e. Elsa) provides mountains of ammunition to our opponents. And this is a battle which I firmly believe we are not winning.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mtgoat View Post
    I am asking this question from total ignorance. Are "captive bred" lions the same as "pen raised"? I don't know about the "raised" part, but I've been told that before being hunted that the lions are in the wild for at least two years (at least with the operator I've talked with). How "captive" are the captive bred animals?

    And, a rhetorical question... Is shooting a captive bred lion any different than going to a shooting preserve for pheasants that were pen raised and then released 3 or 4 months ago? OK, forget the part about the lions being able to act like a Cuisinart on anything or anyone they don't like and costing about 1000 times as much as a pheasant
    Rhetorically you are absolutely correct. What indeed is the difference between shooting pen-raised pheasants or even catching hatchery raised trout - or for that matter shredding still living lettuce onto a salad - and shooting a lion which was possibly actually raised by humans. It is after all merely a question of degree. And yet, most observers of our sport would likely sense a difference. And that difference is the foundation of what I believe are the ethics which separate hunters from mere killers. I have been a soldier most of my life - if the goal is a dead enemy, then why not gas them, nuke them, spread plague, and shoot the prisoners? The reason we don't is that even in the application of military force, we try to apply that force ethically. And yes I have seen my share of real combat.

    But this is just my opinion. I obviously feel strongly about it, but it is just an opinion. I just can't help but fear that anything we do which stretches the boundary of ethical behavior in our sport diminishes it. And most importantly, it hastens the day we can no longer practice it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Red Leg View Post
    Rhetorically you are absolutely correct. What indeed is the difference between shooting pen-raised pheasants or even catching hatchery raised trout - or for that matter shredding still living lettuce onto a salad - and shooting a lion which was possibly actually raised by humans. It is after all merely a question of degree. And yet, most observers of our sport would likely sense a difference. And that difference is the foundation of what I believe are the ethics which separate hunters from mere killers. I have been a soldier most of my life - if the goal is a dead enemy, then why not gas them, nuke them, spread plague, and shoot the prisoners? The reason we don't is that even in the application of military force, we try to apply that force ethically. And yes I have seen my share of real combat.

    But this is just my opinion. I obviously feel strongly about it, but it is just an opinion. I just can't help but fear that anything we do which stretches the boundary of ethical behavior in our sport diminishes it. And most importantly, it hastens the day we can no longer practice it.
    I would find it hard to argue his points.

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    Pen Raised is completely the wrong term and one used by individuals that do not know any better and make it sound if you are shooting a pet animal. Captive Bred is a more accurate description. The Lions are bred for hunting and released when they are of appropriate age. I invite anyone to get into the enclosure with the so called " Pen-Raised" pet lion. I'll be sure to send your family a fruit basket and my condolences.
    Everyone wants to hunt a free range lion, but times have changed. Deal with it.

    BTW: I have a free range lion hunt available. Beautiful, huge black maned cat. He is in a pride with 9 females- $32K. Needs to be hunted no later than 2014.
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