Another 45-70 for Dangerous Game Question

[Norwegianwoods]

Using a .457 Magnum is a totally different ball game than a 45-70.
That and the .50 Alaskan are far better choices for DG than the 45-70.

 

[peras]

Using a .457 Magnum is a totally different ball game than a 45-70.
That and the .50 Alaskan are far better choices for DG than the 45-70.

For sure, if one wants to use a lever gun for dangerous game I think this could be the option.

 

[rooihond]

I thought it was a nice thread. One last thought, since I just got up. I think hunting dangerous game with a known and proven caliber takes a lot of the danger out of the equation. Hunt with a muzzleloader, bow...well to me it becomes a total different affair. I know a PH in Zambia that uses the 45-70 for hippo and such but he developed him own bullets. Sadly I lost that information in the last 2 years. But he loved his lever action gun, thought it was easy to carry around. He did not consider the gun a stopper though,which makes me question if it was appropriate to use.

Thanks! Very good point. Risk adds to the allure of the hunt. It adds to the allure of Africa. There is always the balancing act of that attraction and being wise and responsible. That is something I wrestled with for a bit when deciding to bowhunt a croc. The likelihood of losing the animal seems to flirt with irresponsibility. Waterborne recovery seems to flirt with recklessness. The PH will lend guidance but it adds up to a pretty attractive hunt for me. It sounds like the PH you mentioned may have had a similar perspective with his hippo outings.

As for rifle hunting, I have been curious about the 45-70 and the evolution of its ammo. The rifle itself feels "right" to handle and shoulder, so it got me thinking. I hope to use it on an Alaska trip. Please let me know if you ever come across that lost info. It sounds very interesting.

In actual use(for Africa), I am looking to hire a .375 H&H as it carries some of the African allure with it. A quintessential African animal taken with a quintessential African rifle seems like a great hunt. What I pursue with it is actually more influenced by the boss of the house than the caliber. She has informed me that no caliber or arrow will be bringing a lion into our house.

 

[sestoppelman]

There is very little real world difference between the .45-70 and the .457. One tenth inch of case length does not make for a huge powder increase. A full power .45-70 load will of course generate more pressure than the .457 speed for speed but that is the only real advantage. No animal can tell the difference between a 400 gr bullet at 2100 fps and 2200 fps. Mostly hype for forum fodder.

 

[rooihond]

who was the ph just out of interest? and rooihond how do those leverevolution work?

The Leverevolution stuff performed nicely. It did seem a little awkward loading with those pointed tips but they were consistent. I was taking mostly free standing shots so groups were as tight as my shooting would allow. No malfunctions and the Flex Tips give some assurance regarding magazine discharges. Not sure if that is a real concern but it crosses my mind.

I am not so sure about how they will work for hunting. I should say, relative to other ammo. I am certain that they will work well on any game in my immediate area.

 

[enysse]

Most of the hard core African hunters will laugh in your face and say you're lying, or look at you with sad pathetic eyes when you reveal that you're going to try and shoot that deadly foe, the Tyrant of the African veldt with an 18 inch barrel 45/70 cowboy gun out of the United States!

Cape buffalo are dreaded beasts, they are big and cunning, they are extremely fast, have horns that pierce and gore, iron hooves that trample and mangle and eyes that blaze red and shoot fire into your heart. You cannot kill them unless you have the tyrannosaurus rex of guns, great heavy bullets and a keen eye over the sights.

Carmen Janz with 43" Cape Buffalo & 45/70 Alaskan
Guide Gun by Wild West guns of Alaska

Well this year of our lord 2012, around about noontime, I successfully led a client on a buffalo hunt in Mozambique where she took a fine and healthy beast of the savanna with the lowly 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun shooting a hardcast lead bullet that I had forged from plain old wheel weights!

The Bullet, a 475 grain hardcast of my own design, passed right through the buffalo, as a solid should, exactly as any of the so called buffalo calibers should do - with one exception - it made a somewhat ear pleasing whack as it hit the bull, standing about 100 yards off. Of course the beast took off and kept me busy for at least an hour tracking in the slow cautionary manner through heavy grass and brush - before I found it stone dead and stiff!

Carmen had decided not to travel to Africa with firearms, something that made her trip easier and less worrisome, no officials to deal with, no lost baggage and no customary bribes at the airport in Tete, Mozambique.

On offer to her and husband Rod for their 16 day safari, were 2 genuine work guns - a .416 Rigby that was first fired by Noah to clear the animals off his boat and then a .458 Express - both belonging to the attending PH's on the hunt, myself and Willie Vermaak. THEN there were the guide guns - 2 Marlin 45/70 lever actions which proved to fit and shoot better than the bigger looking relics owned by the PH's.

Rod Janz with Mozambique Elephant taken with
.458 Express (3 inch)
Rod took a very fine Elephant bull on the 6th day of the Safari BUT he did use the .458 Express (which is no different to the newer .458 Lott) while I carried my faithful .416 Rigby loaded with Northfork Cup Nosed Solids. Rod's Elephant proved both guns and bullets worked well and is another story for another blog although a picture of this great creature is called for. The unbroken tusk weighed in at 62lbs.

This Elephant carcass proved to be a great testing ground for the various bullets I had loaded for my annual hunting season in Africa and I have posted pages for each of the bullets and loads I tested. Without a doubt, the 45/70 in modern form, be it a levergun, a single shot action or a double rifle, will take any and all of Africa's game - period!

Below is a picture of the 45/70 - 475 grain hardcast lead bullet as used on the buffalo, the one that entered low on the left shoulder and exited without much deformation judging from the small exit wound, on the right shoulder, breaking through bone and flesh without deflection or breaking up!

The recovered bullets are all from tests done on Elephant bones - the skull, the heavy thigh bones and the massive femurs.

45/70 cast lead bullets in 475 grain - designed for the Marlin Leverguns in Africa managed over 50 inches of penetration through heavy Elephant bone, skin and gristle!

Contact me here for more information about these great bullets, the loads, field tests or if you want to talk 45/70 and the African continent! EMAIL PETE

READ MORE ABOUT THESE BULLETS.......

Posted 9th December 2012 by Pieter Swanepoel

Rifles & Guns for African Game: 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun takes on Cape Buffalo

I did a search and came up with the link to the a lot of articles written by Pieter. I'm sure you 45-70 fans will enjoy the pictures and stories.

 

[CAustin]

I was planning to take my 45-70 next month on a lioness and Cape buffalo hunt. My PH was willing and had fired my Marlin last year. However, when i did the math on the kinetic energy it was plain to see that something larger was called for. The Hornady Lever-evolution 45-70 round is 325 grains but only moves at 1800 feet per second. It has taken the whole shoulder off a whitetail deer and killed two hogs with one round....thru the first and killed the one behind it as well. I love that gun here in the states and would have used it in brush last year on plains game if needed. This year I purchased a 416 Ruger Guide Gun that will use Hornady DGX or DGS 400 grain rounds at 2400 feet per second. So I'm looking at a 23% increase in weight and a 33% increase in speed. This beast will stop anything on the face of the earth. Look out Dugga boy I'm coming for you.

 

[Norwegianwoods]

Didn't you read that you get 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet from a 45-70
Almost the same as your 416 Ruger.

I know what I would carry on a DG hunt of those two

 

[rooihond]

Most of the hard core African hunters will laugh in your face and say you're lying, or look at you with sad pathetic eyes when you reveal that you're going to try and shoot that deadly foe, the Tyrant of the African veldt with an 18 inch barrel 45/70 cowboy gun out of the United States!

Cape buffalo are dreaded beasts, they are big and cunning, they are extremely fast, have horns that pierce and gore, iron hooves that trample and mangle and eyes that blaze red and shoot fire into your heart. You cannot kill them unless you have the tyrannosaurus rex of guns, great heavy bullets and a keen eye over the sights.

Carmen Janz with 43" Cape Buffalo & 45/70 Alaskan
Guide Gun by Wild West guns of Alaska

Well this year of our lord 2012, around about noontime, I successfully led a client on a buffalo hunt in Mozambique where she took a fine and healthy beast of the savanna with the lowly 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun shooting a hardcast lead bullet that I had forged from plain old wheel weights!

The Bullet, a 475 grain hardcast of my own design, passed right through the buffalo, as a solid should, exactly as any of the so called buffalo calibers should do - with one exception - it made a somewhat ear pleasing whack as it hit the bull, standing about 100 yards off. Of course the beast took off and kept me busy for at least an hour tracking in the slow cautionary manner through heavy grass and brush - before I found it stone dead and stiff!

Carmen had decided not to travel to Africa with firearms, something that made her trip easier and less worrisome, no officials to deal with, no lost baggage and no customary bribes at the airport in Tete, Mozambique.

On offer to her and husband Rod for their 16 day safari, were 2 genuine work guns - a .416 Rigby that was first fired by Noah to clear the animals off his boat and then a .458 Express - both belonging to the attending PH's on the hunt, myself and Willie Vermaak. THEN there were the guide guns - 2 Marlin 45/70 lever actions which proved to fit and shoot better than the bigger looking relics owned by the PH's.

Rod Janz with Mozambique Elephant taken with
.458 Express (3 inch)
Rod took a very fine Elephant bull on the 6th day of the Safari BUT he did use the .458 Express (which is no different to the newer .458 Lott) while I carried my faithful .416 Rigby loaded with Northfork Cup Nosed Solids. Rod's Elephant proved both guns and bullets worked well and is another story for another blog although a picture of this great creature is called for. The unbroken tusk weighed in at 62lbs.

This Elephant carcass proved to be a great testing ground for the various bullets I had loaded for my annual hunting season in Africa and I have posted pages for each of the bullets and loads I tested. Without a doubt, the 45/70 in modern form, be it a levergun, a single shot action or a double rifle, will take any and all of Africa's game - period!

Below is a picture of the 45/70 - 475 grain hardcast lead bullet as used on the buffalo, the one that entered low on the left shoulder and exited without much deformation judging from the small exit wound, on the right shoulder, breaking through bone and flesh without deflection or breaking up!

The recovered bullets are all from tests done on Elephant bones - the skull, the heavy thigh bones and the massive femurs.

45/70 cast lead bullets in 475 grain - designed for the Marlin Leverguns in Africa managed over 50 inches of penetration through heavy Elephant bone, skin and gristle!

Contact me here for more information about these great bullets, the loads, field tests or if you want to talk 45/70 and the African continent! EMAIL PETE

READ MORE ABOUT THESE BULLETS.......

Posted 9th December 2012 by Pieter Swanepoel

Rifles & Guns for African Game: 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun takes on Cape Buffalo

I did a search and came up with the link to the a lot of articles written by Pieter. I'm sure you 45-70 fans will enjoy the pictures and stories.

Thanks, enysse. Interesting stuff and food for thought. I suspect that tradition counts for a lot. Like I mentioned before, I noticed similar arguments about the 9 mm years back. The 5.56 too. They are very prominent and widely used now. I was one of the skeptics but new ammo and understanding that there was no perfect medicine changed my mind.

Now you have me wishing I could bring my levergun.

 

[rooihond]

I was planning to take my 45-70 next month on a lioness and Cape buffalo hunt. My PH was willing and had fired my Marlin last year. However, when i did the math on the kinetic energy it was plain to see that something larger was called for. The Hornady Lever-evolution 45-70 round is 325 grains but only moves at 1800 feet per second. It has taken the whole shoulder off a whitetail deer and killed two hogs with one round....thru the first and killed the one behind it as well. I love that gun here in the states and would have used it in brush last year on plains game if needed. This year I purchased a 416 Ruger Guide Gun that will use Hornady DGX or DGS 400 grain rounds at 2400 feet per second. So I'm looking at a 23% increase in weight and a 33% increase in speed. This beast will stop anything on the face of the earth. Look out Dugga boy I'm coming for you.

The numbers don't add up with the Leverevolution ammo. That would probably best be left for the traditional uses of the 45-70. The newer ammo in question claims performance in the same ballpark.

 

[sestoppelman]

Didn't you read that you get 2100 fps with a 400 grain bullet from a 45-70
Almost the same as your 416 Ruger.

I know what I would carry on a DG hunt of those two

Yeah so would I "squarehead"!

The numbers I quote are taken from the Barnes reloading manual and fired from the Ruger No. 1 rifle, I mentioned that before I believe. Point is yes, most factory loads are not up to snuff at all. Too many old Trapdoors still blazing away out there with owners that cant read. But for the handloader its a different critter altogether.

"You can always tell a Norwegian, You just cant tell him very much!" I worked in a shipyard in Ballard WA, for many years, famous for its Norske crowd. I know all about squareheads! Ya, sure you betcha!!

 

[bluey]

:wow::wow::shocked::shocked:opcorn:opcorn:

 

[rooihond]

Ohhh, how about them Dodgers?

 

[CAustin]

300 feet per second is a big difference in terms of the Ruger 416 load vs the factory Hornady load. My 45-70 is a beast in its own right but I don't have any of the hand loads that you speak of and wouldn't trust one I hadn't loaded myself. I may well take the Marlin as my second rifle on this trip because like you I like the gun soooo much. By the way I read very well thank you! I'll up load some photos when I get back.

 

[Big5]

Most of the hard core African hunters will laugh in your face and say you're lying, or look at you with sad pathetic eyes when you reveal that you're going to try and shoot that deadly foe, the Tyrant of the African veldt with an 18 inch barrel 45/70 cowboy gun out of the United States!

Cape buffalo are dreaded beasts, they are big and cunning, they are extremely fast, have horns that pierce and gore, iron hooves that trample and mangle and eyes that blaze red and shoot fire into your heart. You cannot kill them unless you have the tyrannosaurus rex of guns, great heavy bullets and a keen eye over the sights.

Carmen Janz with 43" Cape Buffalo & 45/70 Alaskan
Guide Gun by Wild West guns of Alaska

Well this year of our lord 2012, around about noontime, I successfully led a client on a buffalo hunt in Mozambique where she took a fine and healthy beast of the savanna with the lowly 45/70 Marlin Guide Gun shooting a hardcast lead bullet that I had forged from plain old wheel weights!

The Bullet, a 475 grain hardcast of my own design, passed right through the buffalo, as a solid should, exactly as any of the so called buffalo calibers should do - with one exception - it made a somewhat ear pleasing whack as it hit the bull, standing about 100 yards off. Of course the beast took off and kept me busy for at least an hour tracking in the slow cautionary manner through heavy grass and brush - before I found it stone dead and stiff!

Carmen had decided not to travel to Africa with firearms, something that made her trip easier and less worrisome, no officials to deal with, no lost baggage and no customary bribes at the airport in Tete, Mozambique.

On offer to her and husband Rod for their 16 day safari, were 2 genuine work guns - a .416 Rigby that was first fired by Noah to clear the animals off his boat and then a .458 Express - both belonging to the attending PH's on the hunt, myself and Willie Vermaak. THEN there were the guide guns - 2 Marlin 45/70 lever actions which proved to fit and shoot better than the bigger looking relics owned by the PH's.

Rod Janz with Mozambique Elephant taken with
.458 Express (3 inch)
Rod took a very fine Elephant bull on the 6th day of the Safari BUT he did use the .458 Express (which is no different to the newer .458 Lott) while I carried my faithful .416 Rigby loaded with Northfork Cup Nosed Solids. Rod's Elephant proved both guns and bullets worked well and is another story for another blog although a picture of this great creature is called for. The unbroken tusk weighed in at 62lbs.

This Elephant carcass proved to be a great testing ground for the various bullets I had loaded for my annual hunting season in Africa and I have posted pages for each of the bullets and loads I tested. Without a doubt, the 45/70 in modern form, be it a levergun, a single shot action or a double rifle, will take any and all of Africa's game - period!

Below is a picture of the 45/70 - 475 grain hardcast lead bullet as used on the buffalo, the one that entered low on the left shoulder and exited without much deformation judging from the small exit wound, on the right shoulder, breaking through bone and flesh without deflection or breaking up!

The recovered bullets are all from tests done on Elephant bones - the skull, the heavy thigh bones and the massive femurs.

45/70 cast lead bullets in 475 grain - designed for the Marlin Leverguns in Africa managed over 50 inches of penetration through heavy Elephant bone, skin and gristle!

Contact me here for more information about these great bullets, the loads, field tests or if you want to talk 45/70 and the African continent! EMAIL PETE

READ MORE ABOUT THESE BULLETS.......

Posted 9th December 2012 by Pieter Swanepoel

Rifles & Guns for African Game: 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun takes on Cape Buffalo

I did a search and came up with the link to the a lot of articles written by Pieter. I'm sure you 45-70 fans will enjoy the pictures and stories.

enysse . . . . excellent post, very informative.

 

[Velo Dog]

I guess I missed the part where somebody explains why it is good idea to choose a .45-70 to hunt heavy/dangerous African game, instead of lets say, something like a .404 Jeffery or a .458 Lott.

 

[enysse]

I never suggested was a good idea. I just know people that have tried to make it an everyday rifle.
I personally don't own an 45-70. I own way too many guns already!

 

[rooihond]

I still haven't seen those Garretts perform but I've found that I like the way this rifle handles. This may be coming with me(iron sights) for the next trip.

 

[sestoppelman]

I don't think anyone ever said it would be a good idea to use a .45-70 for DG, but rather is it adequate. And the answer is yes, if a stout handload or hot factory load is used in a strong rifle, like a Ruger No.1 or similar strength rifle.

Oh and Eric?? Too many rifles??? How many is too many?? Is 20 too many, maybe 50 too many? Ain't no such thing as too many rifles.

 

[enysse]

For how much ammo is selling for right now I'm pretty upset!!!!!

Maybe when I'm in a better place, I'll laugh about it. But shooting guns is an expensive hobby right now.